Christianity & Divorce

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Kurieuo
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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#16

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:22 pm

Philip wrote:Ah, K, but as this says, " 9Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate" - I take that to mean that 1) marriage is a spiritual union that 2) GOD has "joined together."

So, surely we're not equating a "marriage" between two unequally yoked persons (where at least one of the two is an unbeliever) as being a union that GOD has joined together. Now, of course, Paul said to not divorce if you are a believer and married to an unbeliever. But I'm pondering the issue of a person that has divorced, became a Christian afterward, can he not marry? Or a believer whose spouse has abandoned him?

Issues discussed here: http://www.gotquestions.org/remarriage-adultery.html

I sure would hate to have to wrestle with this situation.
Yes, even in situations where one is Christian and the other isn't, they've been joined together.

Consider Adam and Eve. When were the married?
When God gave Adam Eve, or when they became one flesh.

Or take what Jesus says of the Samaritan woman at the well, that she is married.
To which she responds, he's not my husband. Did Jesus think himself mistaken? I don't think so.
Since Jesus knew a whole lot more about her life and could tell her everything about her life.
So then, Jesus obviously meant she was married in a different context? What context? She was living with the guy perhaps, and having sex with him outside of some sort of traditional wedlock. That's what I think.
BUT, Jesus concedes that in society terms, indeed she was not married to that guy Jesus called her husband.

Or take Paul's words not to sleep with prostitute because don't you know you become one?
What else is that, but being married. Married before God even if in social terms such is not marriage.
Nonetheless, they having been united like hand in glove: and that is by purposeful design physically and spiritually.
That's just the way God designs things to work. And whether we like it or not, we become one with who we sleep with.

BUT, that God sees us as married after sexual consummation, does not necessarily mean God approves of our decision.
Nonetheless, God does allow two people to come together who may not be equally yoked because that His design only related to one man and one woman coming together (regardless of their belief, religion or otherwise).

Consider the fuller passage that you quote from:
  • “FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9“What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
Does God make a man leave his parents? No, not really. Does God make the two have sex (or as Paul dealt with, does God make us sleep with prostitutes)? No, of course not! But, when they do, they become one flesh. How do the two become one flesh? Because that's the way God design things to work. And God simply respects our decision within the natural order He created.

To state another way, He respects our decision to be joined to someone unsaved, and vice-versa, simply by allow His natural design of marriage to work within humanity. Just like if you jump of a cliff or bridge, God is going to respect that decision and let gravity plummet you downward; if we choose to unite ourself to someone unyoked, he'll oblige that decision.

Anyway, if you disagree after having explained further here, that's fine. We'll just have to disagree.
But, what I've written is heavily built upon a recognition of Natural Law theory. And such is a powerful argument for marriage only being possible between a man and woman.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Philip
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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#17

Post by Philip » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:37 am

Kurieuo, I don't necessarily disagree, but not sure about some aspects of it. If two people can become one flesh simply by having sex, and if God recognizes "marriages" that He does not condone, well, we also have the issue of gay "marriage." Do two homosexuals become "one" through sex? Does God see them as married? Absolutely not! With the Samaritan woman at the well, is Jesus truly recognizing that He saw those as marriages in God's eyes, or is He merely stating what she would understand about her past unions, but more so to see that Jesus knows things about her past and present that He couldn't possibly know if He were a mere man. Not sure we can extrapolate from that as to how God sees marriages between unbelievers. And then we have the sticky problem of multiple wives with the patriarchs. Was David ONE flesh with all those in His Harem? If so, HOW so? Do the math. If a man today has multiple wives, is that OK? Should he divorce all but one?

Thanks.

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#18

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:51 am

Well, you have to redefine "sex" by social standards (from what is natural), in order for homosexual intimacy to be considered by anyone real sex. And if some want to call such sex, well that's a social construction, and they can call it what they like really.

BUT, as much as some might like to be joined (aka married) to the same gender,
the inherent design seen in nature just doesn't support such. Which is central to my points.

Nature reveals that it is man and woman are physically designed to be joined together.
The function of our different body parts and gametes. Function reveals that such design (man and woman) is indeed the correct design since together they can naturally produce offspring.
This is just the natural law of things in plain sight for all to see, right?

With this understanding, talking of "gay marriage" is actually a category error. Like the colour circle.
There is no support to be seen in nature, only in social desires, for the idea that two people of the same sex are intended. Two people of the same sex coming together do not fulfill some function in the natural design of things.

If we believe in only the "natural" world, then evidently we see in nature a male+female design.
If we believe in God, then that's evidently how we see God intended things to work: male+female coming together.
And, if we believe in Scripture, then God designed the way of things for man and woman to be raised up by their parents, then leave to be united with each other and have their own offspring.

A question back though.
What is the main issue you see with God allowing a Christian to marry a non-Christian?
I'm missing something, some previous exchanges perhaps. I'll say that God may not approve of the choice, and neither do I, and I'd never encourage a Christian to marry someone who isn't. But then, the design God setup respects our decision to marry anyone of the opposite sex, and when that happens we become united and seen as one (i.e., what I see as being "married").
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#19

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:09 am

Philip wrote:And then we have the sticky problem of multiple wives with the patriarchs. Was David ONE flesh with all those in His Harem? If so, HOW so? Do the math. If a man today has multiple wives, is that OK? Should he divorce all but one?
David broke the intended design of things.
As Christ said, it was never meant to be that way from the beginning. (Matt 19:8)
With natural law, when you try to go against or ignore the natural design of the world, then there are consequences.

Again, ignore gravity all you want, but one day you'll plummet to your death.

As for polygamy, I'm sure there's natural consequences to such, because that's not the way it was meant to be.
I'm sure it hurts the wives, hurts the children, hurts God's intended design for family, and with that comes brokeness. Sure people can bury any hurt and learn to cope with such fractures. As for David, his own lust got the better of him and he basically killed Uriah to take his wife Bathsheba. God directly took David's son from him. David never got to have a proper marriage as intended by God.

If a man has multiple wives, then well, the consequences are he's stuffed the intended design up. And he'll need to wear the consequences. He'll need to work out the best solution possible, if he has children to several or what-have-you. Thankfully in Christ we live under grace and can be healed. Sadly (or perhaps justly), that doesn't mean we won't suffer natural consequences of our actions.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#20

Post by Nessa » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:13 pm

About God only wanting one wife per man, phillip brought up a valid point on OT multiple wives...see article...I think the author has twisted certain things but the fact remains. God gave david nearly all his wives., right?
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/exegesi ... ave-wives/
Last edited by Nessa on Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#21

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:39 pm

Jesus said that Moses made concessions that were not of God per say, because of how the hebrew people were.
Polygamy was one of them along with divorce.

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#22

Post by Nessa » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:45 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Jesus said that Moses made concessions that were not of God per say, because of how the hebrew people were.
Polygamy was one of them.
Then id God make sessions?

God gave david wives. It states it clearly in the bible I thought? And after david cheated, wasnt like God saying ...why did you do that? I would have given you even more


I dont want to twist things so if you think Im wrong, how do you interpret those passages?

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#23

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:45 pm

Nessa wrote:Now, I agree with kurieuo on the one flesh thing...its being one flesh in the way nature and God designed. E.g two men having man sex is no more being one flesh (in the intended way) than involving male parts and mouths (but I dont consider the latter wrong tho :shock: )

As for God only wanting one wife per man, phillip brought up a valid point on OT multiple wives...see article...I think the author has twisted certain things but the fact remains. God gave david nearly all his wives., right?
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/exegesi ... ave-wives/
The author of the link brings up 2 Samuel 12:
I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your [e]care, ...

Yet, read the whole chapter and understand that the Lord giving David Saul's wives to care for does NOT equal approval of polygamy.

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#24

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:46 pm

Let's be perfectly honest here, if God wanted man to have more than one woman, why make ONLY ONE for Adam ??

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#25

Post by Nessa » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:50 pm

That doesnt make sense though.....um..why did you cheat with another mans wife? I gave you house cleaners....werent they enough?

Do you mean david was not supose to have sex with them?

I guess Im missing something..
Last edited by Nessa on Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#26

Post by Nessa » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:56 pm

maybe not house cleaners but whatever they did or however david cared for them....

I am well aware of Gods intended design but why did God bring up those other wives as you put it in relation to david being with bathsheba? Im not tryng to play dumb here

What the heck do other wives or women have to do with david cheating? Like they were suppose to help him resist cheating with bathsheba? Why did God bring them up?
Last edited by Nessa on Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#27

Post by Nessa » Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:10 pm

Last edited by Nessa on Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#28

Post by Nessa » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:42 pm

Why did God never condem david for other women except bathsheba..why didnt God condem any man for more than one wife in the OT? Yes, I know what God intended BUT why then did God not express that in the OT? Other than genesis?. Did he forget? Where does God condem mutiple wives in the OT?

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#29

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:59 pm

Nessa wrote:About God only wanting one wife per man, phillip brought up a valid point on OT multiple wives...see article...I think the author has twisted certain things but the fact remains. God gave david nearly all his wives., right?
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/exegesi ... ave-wives/
Nessa, good point.

Take a read of 1 Samuel 8 then answer these questions:
1) Was God happy with Israel taking up a king to rule over and judge them?
2) Did God give Israel a king?

Re: Marriage, the first question one needs to answer before thinking about anything else is this:
What does it mean to be "married"?

How one answers that question will result in logic either flowing one way, or this way or that way.
All I've done here is simply follow a logic that flows out of Natural Law theory
-- seeing the design in nature as real and something we shouldn't ignore.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Christianity & Divorce

#30

Post by Nessa » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:28 pm

Really it comes down to the consumation...are you married after you are pronounced man and wife or after you have intercourse?

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