Why do we argue with people who are firm in their beliefs

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Danieltwotwenty
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Why do we argue with people who are firm in their beliefs

#1

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:39 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:I really don't know why some of you even bother to argue with a person that has clearly shown that he is NOT open to any viewpoint other than his own.
Truly, why bother?
This is just what I have learned, so I am not saying it is true for everyone but it is true for me and a lot of other people I know.

Fundamentally our core beliefs are a part of who we are, they help us identify and shape our inner being, when that is attacked we naturally get defensive, because it is not only the position that is being attacked but also who we are as a person (now people should realise this when discussing and try not to be so rude, we don't know the effects our words could be having on people, try to be more like Christ)

We also have big ego's and want to feel like we are right, we want to be right because then we can look down on others who disagree with us. This is the same type of legalistic attitude that Jesus admonished the Pharisees for using but in reality we all do it to one degree or another. We feel judged by others and our natural reaction is to judge back so we can feel right again.

If you really boil it all down (or do what AA do which is inventory) everything comes down to the fear of death, which we could put another way, which is simply not trusting in God.

I have quite a few Buddhist friends and have been learning a lot about meditation and self introspection which has been quite a journey and very helpful when dealing with difficult people. I have been learning how to analyse my actions and the way they effect the world around me, and thinking a lot about how Jesus would like me to approach others.


Funnily enough I have been reading a lot about different religions recently and have found they all have a lot to offer, just finished reading a book on Islam and it was very eye opening but I digress, sorry. Probably a discussion for another topic.

I might have more to say later on the topic, please feel free to add your own thoughts while I gather mine.
Last edited by Danieltwotwenty on Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#2

Post by Proinsias » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:53 pm

Because those who are firm in their beliefs are up for an argument. It takes two to tango.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#3

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:46 pm

I think also that wanting to be right is also connected with working our way into God's good graces, we think that by being right in our beliefs that we can somehow get a free pass into heaven and everyone who believes differently is in God's naughty book. We turn what is meant to be faith based into a works based form of religion which ultimately cannot save us. Again this comes back to a fear of death and not fully trusting in Christ's work that was done at the cross. When we say we have to be right, really we are saying that God's forgiveness is not enough for us, so we must defend our beliefs at all costs, even at the cost of others. I guess in a sense it is quite selfish.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#4

Post by melanie » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:11 pm

I think there are so many reasons as to why Dan.
It can depend on the person and/or the situation.
Firstly a lot has to do with the nature of communication in an online environment. It is alot easier to be blunt, straight to the point, sometimes rude when your not looking directly at a person. To actually see someone hurt usually brings us down a peg or two regardless of whether we believe we are right or wrong in the exchange. As you said we talking about beliefs we hold very dear, very personal, but in such an impersonal environment. I bet nearly everyone on here has probably had an encounter that they would have dealt with differently if the exchange was face to face.
Also I think sometimes like in Abelcainsbrother case, he genuinely, honestly feels he is right. He has posted on other threads and has never I don't think come across as extreme in his beliefs, by all accounts he seems like a nice, christian bloke. It is different in some cases where a person comes on here and pushes non-biblical beliefs, the mods have a job to do. But Abel's beliefs are sound he is just passionate regarding them. As we all are. Those who have exchanged wih him over creation, evolution ect, are just as sound and passionate in their stances. What I think happens is this, and I say this from personal experience, if anyone can remember how I first posted on here, that we feel we have something very important to share. Not to prove that we are right, but because we so strongly, and passionately believe it and we believe our spirit has been shown a truth and we want others to share in that light. So a dogmatic approach, and a pushiness can be seen as a person trying to ram a belief down our throats so we push back, they push the envelope a little further, and so on untill an exchange ends up probably where neither party intended it.
I learnt very quickly that everyone has their own walk, their own experience, their own spirituality and their own personal relationship with the Lord. It is my place to share my beliefs but never to change another's. It just doesn't work that way.
There is a right and a wrong way to argue. It is about putting your argument across and respectfully listening to another's. Never to be right, never to prove someone wrong, that will always lead to unpleasant exchanges.
I have at times bowed out of threads, deciding to end the exchange. I have hoped it hasn't seemed rude on my part but I can see where it's leading. That is not necessarily a reflection of the other person but more so myself. In the past I would have felt a very strong desire to prove myself, as I never of course hold a position unless 1 I believe I'm right and 2 I can adequately back it up and I have been known to be very argumentative and quite good at a debate but really if two or more people have put forward their belief on an issue, all are secure and hold fast to it, what good will come from beating each up side the head with our points of view. I am happy to discuss but not debate. I'm trying very hard to leave those days behind me.
I actually agree with Abel, I personally do not believe in evolution. Now I'm sure that that gist has come across but I have never really gotten into the threads because I care just as little about proving why I believe that as I do having another prove to me why they believe in it. Now I have done the research, I am an avid reader and have done my homework, based on that and more so a wisdom outside of my own limitations that is the belief I hold fast too. But I don't need to prove that to anyone least of all myself and most assuredly not to God, as He is much more concerned with my heart than my intellect. If proving my position and relying solely on my intellect to do so in any way jeopardises my integrity by becoming narky, too heated, disrespectful, sarcastic ect, then regardless of whether I'm right or wrong I've lost anyway.
Why argue about things relating to God in a way that doesn't reflect Him?

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#5

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:00 pm

I believe debate is good as long as it is respectful.For we can all learn from one another if we have dialog,we do need to be careful about pride though,and strive as Christian's to let God be true and every man a liar.In debates we can get frustrated and go over the line sometimes too but just because somebody disagrees with you does not mean the person should take it personal,but a lot of times they do.But if you truly have truth on your side it will shine through eventually.I may disagree with certain beliefs people have but if they are a Christian I will try my best to see things from their perspective with prayer and being led by the Holy Spirit and what God's word says.I genuinely do not trust man's opinions though and when it comes from man I will require more evidence than if it comes from God.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#6

Post by neo-x » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:03 pm

I genuinely do not trust man's opinions though and when it comes from man I will require more evidence than if it comes from God.
You are also a man, should I trust your opinion?
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#7

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:59 am

neo-x wrote:
I genuinely do not trust man's opinions though and when it comes from man I will require more evidence than if it comes from God.
You are also a man, should I trust your opinion?
To add to what Neo said, the people who wrote the books of the Bible were also men, should we trust them?
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#8

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:48 am

Thank you all for your responses so far, they have indeed been enlightening, there are however a couple of points I would like to discuss further, Neo has already asked the exact question I was mulling over inside my mind today while building my new outdoor staircase (Feeling a bit like Jesus today, doing carpentry in the heat of Summer is damn hard work, I am old school, so a lot of chisel and hammer work).

I can agree with pretty much everything you said Melanie, the internet is definitely a wall that creates all sorts of friction between opposing parties but there was one thing in particular that I wanted to zone in on, if you don't mind answering of course.
Also I think sometimes like in Abelcainsbrother case, he genuinely, honestly feels he is right.
On the back of the above quote, do you think all your beliefs are absolutely correct and do you think when you meet our creator face to face that everything you know now will be 100% correct? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying absolute truth cannot be known, I am just saying that anything I hold dear (like evolution for example) always has an element of doubt attached to it. I never feel I am right, I always feel there is doubt to my claims and I find it quite disconcerting when someone like ACB claims absolute truth. How can anyone honestly feel they are right, I never feel I am right, I just feel I am doing the best I can with what God graced me with.

Sorry if that is a bunch of questions, but I an genuinely interested in how you can claim to be right without doubt?

If proving my position and relying solely on my intellect to do so in any way jeopardises my integrity by becoming narky, too heated, disrespectful, sarcastic ect, then regardless of whether I'm right or wrong I've lost anyway.
But this is what I see happening time and again on many different threads on this forum, I may have been absent for awhile but from a quick scan I see not much has changed (we are humans after all). The problem I see with posts like ACB (Sorry to keep picking ACB but you used him as the example and for berevity I will just continue on with the same example, I hate to use people as an example like this, so I do apologise to ACB). I have read through some of the evolution threads have have found that ACB has said some pretty disrespectful things about people who believe that God used evolution as his method of bringing about life on this planet, he claims they have been deceived by Satan, they believe the words of men before God, they twist the Bible to suit their own adgendas etc.. etc...

I think it is from that I have absolute truth attitude that these disrespectful comments come from, because there is no room for not being right they must believe these things as a consequence of that. Now you can say he is a nice guy and all that and I am sure he is, but I really think his way of thinking he is absolutely right is dangerous and destructive, not only to himself but to the people who may engage with him. You can see this is destructive because as time goes by less and less people will want to converse with him, it has happened many times before and for the people that do take the bait it will breed anger and hatred. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying I am above these things because I am just as guilty as ACB, we all are to one degree or another but I just wanted to highlight it so we may be more aware that it exists and maybe if people read this they may try to change a little.

Once again I do apologise ACB, I look forward to getting to know you better, I am not one to judge on appearances, we are all broken in some way or another.

Now I have some questions for ACB.
I genuinely do not trust man's opinions though and when it comes from man I will require more evidence than if it comes from God.
I agree with you here ACB but how come God has lead me to evolution and I believe his word as written by humans supports that, why is it that we do not agree, you say God's word says this but I say it says that? We both cannot be right and God cannot tell us contradictory stories, so why is it do you think that our beliefs do not line up?

You could say I have been deceived by the Satan with evolution but I in turn could say the same of your beliefs could I not, after all are they not just the words of a man?

One last question, ACB if you were dying of an infection and I was your doctor and I said I could give you a pill (antibiotic) that would cure your infection would you believe the words of a man of science or would you consult the Bible for an answer and a cure?

Anyway that is all I can think of for the moment, as always it is a pleasure to discuss and hopefully no ones has taken any offence here. y@};-
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#9

Post by Starhunter » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:56 am

Welcome back Danieltwotwenty, long time since we've heard from you. Glad you are back.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#10

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:08 am

Starhunter wrote:Welcome back Danieltwotwenty, long time since we've heard from you. Glad you are back.
Thank you SH, sometimes we just need time apart to grow closer together. :P
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#11

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:34 am

Arguing is a waste of time.
State your point, back it up with facts and not conjecture.
The rest is up o the individual.
Many times the point of arguing with someone that clearly won't change their mind is to help those who may be reading the discussion.
I don't think that when Jesus argued with the Pharisees he did so with ONLY the intent to change their mind ( I am sure He knew that in many a case it was futile) BUT to reach those that were witnessing the debate.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#12

Post by melanie » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:41 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Thank you all for your responses so far, they have indeed been enlightening, there are however a couple of points I would like to discuss further, Neo has already asked the exact question I was mulling over inside my mind today while building my new outdoor staircase (Feeling a bit like Jesus today, doing carpentry in the heat of Summer is damn hard work, I am old school, so a lot of chisel and hammer work).

I can agree with pretty much everything you said Melanie, the internet is definitely a wall that creates all sorts of friction between opposing parties but there was one thing in particular that I wanted to zone in on, if you don't mind answering of course.
Also I think sometimes like in Abelcainsbrother case, he genuinely, honestly feels he is right.
On the back of the above quote, do you think all your beliefs are absolutely correct and do you think when you meet our creator face to face that everything you know now will be 100% correct? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying absolute truth cannot be known, I am just saying that anything I hold dear (like evolution for example) always has an element of doubt attached to it. I never feel I am right, I always feel there is doubt to my claims and I find it quite disconcerting when someone like ACB claims absolute truth. How can anyone honestly feel they are right, I never feel I am right, I just feel I am doing the best I can with what God graced me with.

Sorry if that is a bunch of questions, but I an genuinely interested in how you can claim to be right without doubt?

If proving my position and relying solely on my intellect to do so in any way jeopardises my integrity by becoming narky, too heated, disrespectful, sarcastic ect, then regardless of whether I'm right or wrong I've lost anyway.
But this is what I see happening time and again on many different threads on this forum, I may have been absent for awhile but from a quick scan I see not much has changed (we are humans after all). The problem I see with posts like ACB (Sorry to keep picking ACB but you used him as the example and for berevity I will just continue on with the same example, I hate to use people as an example like this, so I do apologise to ACB). I have read through some of the evolution threads have have found that ACB has said some pretty disrespectful things about people who believe that God used evolution as his method of bringing about life on this planet, he claims they have been deceived by Satan, they believe the words of men before God, they twist the Bible to suit their own adgendas etc.. etc...

I think it is from that I have absolute truth attitude that these disrespectful comments come from, because there is no room for not being right they must believe these things as a consequence of that. Now you can say he is a nice guy and all that and I am sure he is, but I really think his way of thinking he is absolutely right is dangerous and destructive, not only to himself but to the people who may engage with him. You can see this is destructive because as time goes by less and less people will want to converse with him, it has happened many times before and for the people that do take the bait it will breed anger and hatred. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying I am above these things because I am just as guilty as ACB, we all are to one degree or another but I just wanted to highlight it so we may be more aware that it exists and maybe if people read this they may try to change a little.

Once again I do apologise ACB, I look forward to getting to know you better, I am not one to judge on appearances, we are all broken in some way or another.

Now I have some questions for ACB.
I genuinely do not trust man's opinions though and when it comes from man I will require more evidence than if it comes from God.
I agree with you here ACB but how come God has lead me to evolution and I believe his word as written by humans supports that, why is it that we do not agree, you say God's word says this but I say it says that? We both cannot be right and God cannot tell us contradictory stories, so why is it do you think that our beliefs do not line up?

You could say I have been deceived by the Satan with evolution but I in turn could say the same of your beliefs could I not, after all are they not just the words of a man?

One last question, ACB if you were dying of an infection and I was your doctor and I said I could give you a pill (antibiotic) that would cure your infection would you believe the words of a man of science or would you consult the Bible for an answer and a cure?

Anyway that is all I can think of for the moment, as always it is a pleasure to discuss and hopefully no ones has taken any offence here. y@};-
No offence taken here Dan, you have asked some good questions but also made some assumptions that I can hopefully clear up for you.
I said that my belief through my own research is something I hold fast too, that is quite different to claiming to be right without doubt, i am quite certain that there are many things I have percieved with my limited understanding when it comes to the inner workings of God that I will be wrong about. The reason I do not engage in creation debate, regardless of my position is because I do not know for certain, none of us do. The fact that none of us do is not oversight by God. To be honest, I don't know how anyone can claim absolute truth on any side of the coin when it comes to creation but Dan they do, and not just Abel. Whilst Abel was pushing his stance, others were pushing back with the same level of certainty. I could quote but I think that road is better left, and the reality is we both are biased, not in a nasty way or deliberately but I sympathise with Abels position because I sway that way in my beliefs and you take offence because he is fervently questioning your beliefs.
Scripture tell us there are truths we do not know and can not know, not while we are on this earth. God does not make mistakes or oversights, the fact that this has been such a hotly debated topic for centuries is because we simply do not have the answers. not the christian community or the scientific community. There are a whole lotta theories and that's about it.
But whilst science tries to answers the questions without God, we know the answer lies whatever it is with our Creator. That's what I know for certain. God created everything and He sustains everything. Science can answer the questions of how rain falls but not one drop falls outside the will of God, we know how plants convert energy using photosynthesis but not one blade of grass sprouts without His authority. Our hypothesis and theories will never hold the answers to the creative genius of God. That's is mans folly. God asked Job 'where were you, where were you, when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding'. That was God pretty much saying how the heck would you know. But yet now we think we have the answers, well we don't, none of us do. We don't need too.
Sure we can have opinions, even conviction but none of us have the authority to presume to know how the most creative genius far beyond anyone's understanding would go about His work.
Science does not hold the ace card, how on earth could mere man think to have worked it all out, and done so completely outside of the authority of The Almighty.
Sure Abel is perhaps too bold in his stance, and of course he doesn't have it all worked out, and he isn't holding all the answers either, but I think the premise of what he is saying is don't trust man's science as a certainty, not when it comes to the creative genius of the most awe-inspiring, truly incredible beyond comprehension genius of our Creator.
That brings me to the question of would I trust my doctor to give me something to cure an infection, of course. Would I trust a scientist to tell me exactly how The Almighty created and established life not only on this earth but the universe, yeah no! Some things are just beyond our expertise.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#13

Post by melanie » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:59 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Arguing is a waste of time.
State your point, back it up with facts and not conjecture.
The rest is up o the individual.
Many times the point of arguing with someone that clearly won't change their mind is to help those who may be reading the discussion.
I don't think that when Jesus argued with the Pharisees he did so with ONLY the intent to change their mind ( I am sure He knew that in many a case it was futile) BUT to reach those that were witnessing the debate.
But Paul that's my point, arguing to change someone's point of view is futile.
Why should he change his mind?
He does not believe in evolution, and believes in the gap theory.
So do I.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees about the most fundamental, important lessons on how to be humble and treat others. How to place love and kindness above works and so called religious knowledge.
I'm a little confused here.
You just said it in a nutshell 'he won't change his mind' but yet Abel is charged for being dogmatic, thinking he is right and trying to change others views. But yet you are doing the exact same thing, you are clearly annoyed because he won't change his mind. But again I ask, why should he?

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#14

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:05 am

melanie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Arguing is a waste of time.
State your point, back it up with facts and not conjecture.
The rest is up o the individual.
Many times the point of arguing with someone that clearly won't change their mind is to help those who may be reading the discussion.
I don't think that when Jesus argued with the Pharisees he did so with ONLY the intent to change their mind ( I am sure He knew that in many a case it was futile) BUT to reach those that were witnessing the debate.
But Paul that's my point, arguing to change someone's point of view is futile.
Why should he change his mind?
He does not believe in evolution, and believes in the gap theory.
So do I.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees about the most fundamental, important lessons on how to be humble and treat others. How to place love and kindness above works and so called religious knowledge.
I'm a little confused here.
You just said it in a nutshell 'he won't change his mind' but yet Abel is charged for being dogmatic, thinking he is right and trying to change others views. But yet you are doing the exact same thing, you are clearly annoyed because he won't change his mind. But again I ask, why should he?
I am not annoyed that he won't change his mind.
I am annoyed at his ignorance AND how he cross-contestant every thread with his crap.
I am annoyed as a moderator, not as a poster.

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Re: Why do we argue with people who are firm in their belief

#15

Post by melanie » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:16 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
melanie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Arguing is a waste of time.
State your point, back it up with facts and not conjecture.
The rest is up o the individual.
Many times the point of arguing with someone that clearly won't change their mind is to help those who may be reading the discussion.
I don't think that when Jesus argued with the Pharisees he did so with ONLY the intent to change their mind ( I am sure He knew that in many a case it was futile) BUT to reach those that were witnessing the debate.
But Paul that's my point, arguing to change someone's point of view is futile.
Why should he change his mind?
He does not believe in evolution, and believes in the gap theory.
So do I.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees about the most fundamental, important lessons on how to be humble and treat others. How to place love and kindness above works and so called religious knowledge.
I'm a little confused here.
You just said it in a nutshell 'he won't change his mind' but yet Abel is charged for being dogmatic, thinking he is right and trying to change others views. But yet you are doing the exact same thing, you are clearly annoyed because he won't change his mind. But again I ask, why should he?
I am not annoyed that he won't change his mind.
I am annoyed at his ignorance AND how he cross-contestant every thread with his crap.
I am annoyed as a moderator, not as a poster.
Not quite sure how you separate the two Paul,
Put annoyance aside, you said 'arguing with someone that won't change their mind'
I get your frustration with someone that does continually only seem to post things relevant to pushing their agenda, I have seen it, and I get it. Seems he may be here to change others point of view?
Don't you see the irony?
Paul you are well rounded, you have your opinions but are most certainly not here to push an agenda, I get the difference.
But I don't think Abel has crossed the line apart from being a bit too over-zealous

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