Does This Sound Loving?

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Murray
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#31

Post by Murray » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:21 am

From what I have seen the koran is pretty straight forward in it's message of hate and violence, not really any room for alternate explanation as in the bible.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#32

Post by Noah1201 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:22 am

RickD wrote: Noah, I'm a Christian, and I don't believe I have to "follow the moral precepts" to achieve salvation.
In Christianity alone, God has made THE way for our salvation. John 3:16 All we have to do is believe on the finished work of Christ for salvation. It's a simple concept. All other religions require man to do some kind of works to please God.
Yet you believe that if you don't follow the moral precepts, to at least some extent, you are going to hell. Only a small fraction of Christians believe that a remorseless, unrepentant mass murderer can go to Heaven just on the basis of professing faith in Jesus. And for good reason - Matthew 25 among many other passages makes this very clear.
Christianity and Islam contradict each other. Logically, Christianity and Islam can't both be true. They both can be false, or one can be true. But both can't be true. In fact, logically, If Christianity is true, and the only way to God is through Christ, then all other ways to God are useless. That doesn't logically conclude that Christianity is true, but we all need to examine TRUE Christianity and the REAL Christ, to see for ourselves.
This doesn't at all answer what I've written.
neo-x wrote:Noah, sorry to say this but you you don't know what you are talking about. If you wanna spill your dislike of the Bible or our childish reasoning, you are more than welcome to debate, however saying something and then running away, calling us hypocrites, doesn't cut it for me. The "I'm not gonna respond" is what I call childish.

p.s: I'm from a Muslim converted family, so don't think you are the only one who knows about it.
I answered almost every significant argument made on the thread, and all I get in response is one-liners. Sorry, but I don't have the patience to spend hours going in circles that don't get us anywhere. If there is any particular point you want me to answer, then let me know.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#33

Post by DannyM » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:30 am

Noah1201 wrote:
RickD wrote:John 3:16 All we have to do is believe on the finished work of Christ for salvation. It's a simple concept. All other religions require man to do some kind of works to please God.
Yet you believe that if you don't follow the moral precepts, to at least some extent, you are going to hell.
Who ever said that?

Only a small fraction of Christians believe that a remorseless, unrepentant mass murderer can go to Heaven just on the basis of professing faith in Jesus
Repentance is synonymous with faith. So your comment here is off.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#34

Post by Noah1201 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:43 am

DannyM wrote: Who ever said that?
Jesus, in Matthew 25.

Repentance is synonymous with faith. So your comment here is off.
No, it's not, but let's say that it is. Then Islam itself can be said to require "faith alone" for salvation, since repentant sinners can go to Heaven. There.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#35

Post by DannyM » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:55 am

Noah1201 wrote:
Jesus, in Matthew 25.


So you’re telling me that if I don’t follow “at least some” form of morality then I’m going to hell?
Repentance is synonymous with faith. So your comment here is off.
No, it's not, but let's say that it is. Then Islam itself can be said to require "faith alone" for salvation, since repentant sinners can go to Heaven. There.
No, because repentance is not a requirement for salvation. Repentance to a Christian is synonymous with his faith. Can you not see the difference?
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#36

Post by KravMagaSelfDefense » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:21 am

Hello, everyone, Noah in particular, I'm new to this discussion here and I've been seeing some comments thrown around that claim that in the Bible are verses of tyranny and violence... Noah, you have any verse references for me? I've been a Christian for 13 years now and I've never heard of such verses. Care to elaborate?
Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. ~Author Unknown
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. ~ C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. - C.S. Lewis.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#37

Post by Murray » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:24 am

KravMagaSelfDefense wrote:Hello, everyone, Noah in particular, I'm new to this discussion here and I've been seeing some comments thrown around that claim that in the Bible are verses of tyranny and violence... Noah, you have any verse references for me? I've been a Christian for 13 years now and I've never heard of such verses. Care to elaborate?
The only people who think the bible is evil are people who have not taken any time to understand it and explore it.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#38

Post by KravMagaSelfDefense » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:33 am

Murray wrote:
KravMagaSelfDefense wrote:Hello, everyone, Noah in particular, I'm new to this discussion here and I've been seeing some comments thrown around that claim that in the Bible are verses of tyranny and violence... Noah, you have any verse references for me? I've been a Christian for 13 years now and I've never heard of such verses. Care to elaborate?
The only people who think the bible is evil are people who have not taken any time to understand it and explore it.
I agree entirely.

Also, I must add that the people who claim to be atheists while simultaneously believing things can have objective moral value, such as "evil," are self-contradictory. You can't have the idea of things being absolutely right and absolutely wrong unless you have the concept of transcendent human values, otherwise what human equality does "evil" break? This can only come from the concept that humans are created equal. Which is exactly what the atheist denies.
Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. ~Author Unknown
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. ~ C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. - C.S. Lewis.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#39

Post by jlay » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:44 am

et you believe that if you don't follow the moral precepts, to at least some extent, you are going to hell. Only a small fraction of Christians believe that a remorseless, unrepentant mass murderer can go to Heaven just on the basis of professing faith in Jesus. And for good reason - Matthew 25 among many other passages makes this very clear.
If Matt 25 was a sermon to the modern gentile church, then myself, you and I'd say every other person are doomed to Hell fire. Are willing to testify that you have lived up to this measure. If this is YOUR gospel, then it is most certainly based on your works. There is no question that this clearly this teaches something much different than what Paul was commissioned to preach by the risen Lord when he was called as the apostle to the Gentiles. You need to ask the question, why? Could it be that you are not rightly dividing the Word of truth?

Professing faith is not necessarily receiving Christ. A lot of 'Christians' are very confused and conflicted about how one is actually saved. If you are presenting Matt 25 as such, then I'd say you are one as well.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#40

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:14 pm

Yet you believe that if you don't follow the moral precepts, to at least some extent, you are going to hell. Only a small fraction of Christians believe that a remorseless, unrepentant mass murderer can go to Heaven just on the basis of professing faith in Jesus. And for good reason - Matthew 25 among many other passages makes this very clear.
No, I don't believe I have to follow any moral precepts or I'm going to hell. It seems you have created a "strawman" Christianity to argue against. Your Ideas of Christianity aren't true Christianity. Someone once said something like this: "in order to argue against something, one should know it well enough to be able to defend it.".
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24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#41

Post by KravMagaSelfDefense » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:58 pm

Answer me, Noah. You were so outgoing with everyone else, but when I ask you for verse references you suddenly become real quiet. Care to explain?
Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. ~Author Unknown
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. ~ C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. - C.S. Lewis.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#42

Post by Noah1201 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:03 pm

KravMagaSelfDefense wrote:Answer me, Noah. You were so outgoing with everyone else, but when I ask you for verse references you suddenly become real quiet. Care to explain?
Come on, cowboy, be patient. It's only been a few hours since you posted. It's not like I have a life or anything.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#43

Post by Noah1201 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:24 pm

The debate has now mostly boiled down to arguing whether repentance and some level of commitment to one's faith is necessary in order to achieve salvation.

Now, everyone is suddenly attempting to paint a picture of Christianity that allows one to live however they like - murder, steal, fornicate, and so forth - all while laughing and cursing God, and still get to go to Heaven for their faith in Jesus? Come on, guys. This is not what mainstream Christianity preaches.

I was a Christian until recently, so I am perfectly familiar with the salvation controversy within the Christendom. The main way the apparently contradictory passages that talk about how one is saved (some say faith alone, others indicate some level of commitment is necessary) are rationalized is by saying that "true faith" will necessarily produce works. It's an incontrovertible fact that this is how most Christians interpret the Bible.

But whether one sees repentance and works as the product of faith or not (this is, in fact, how many Islamic theologians reason as well), the fact is that without them (at least without repentance) there is no salvation. And this is as identical to the Islamic salvation system as it can get.

DannyM wrote:
No, because repentance is not a requirement for salvation. Repentance to a Christian is synonymous with his faith. Can you not see the difference?
Okay, so in order to maintain the belief that faith alone is required for salvation, you redefine the word "faith" to encompass "repentance" in its meaning. Come on. As far as I am concerned, you can call it whatever you want; I don't care. But repentance is repentance, even if you declare it to be synonymous with faith.
KravMagaSelfDefense wrote:Hello, everyone, Noah in particular, I'm new to this discussion here and I've been seeing some comments thrown around that claim that in the Bible are verses of tyranny and violence... Noah, you have any verse references for me? I've been a Christian for 13 years now and I've never heard of such verses. Care to elaborate?
The only claim I've made is that there are nearly identical verses in the Bible as the ones quoted from the Koran in the original post. Whether you choose to interpret them as "tyranny and violence" is up to you.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#44

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:37 pm

I was a Christian until recently, so I am perfectly familiar with the salvation controversy within the Christendom.
How do you know you were a Christian?

What I'm asking, is, in your mind, what makes someone a Christian?

Ephesians 1:13-14 shows that God seals believers with the Holy Spirit, as a guarantee of what is to come. Were you sealed with the Holy Spirit?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#45

Post by Noah1201 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:39 pm

Whether I was a "true believer" or not is irrelevant as to this topic. I mentioned that in order to point out that I am familiar with basic Christian theology.

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