Does This Sound Loving?

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Murray
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Does This Sound Loving?

#1

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:27 am

9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.


And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

[2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.


And Fight those who have not faith in God, nor in the Hereafter, and (who) forbid not what God and His Prophet have forbidden and (who ) are not committed to the religion of truth, of those who have been brought the Book, until they pay tribute by hand, and they are the low.» (9:29)

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Last edited by Murray on Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:04 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#2

Post by Noah1201 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:53 pm

I only skimmed quickly through these verses, and as far I can see, almost all of them have something to do with unbelievers and other sinners being doomed to eternal agony in Hell. I don't know about you, but this sounds awfully familiar to what you find in the Bible.

(if you already chastise other belief systems, then it would be wise not to use arguments whose identical versions can be used against your own religion).
Last edited by Noah1201 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#3

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:54 pm

All that is from the Koran I take it?
It's been awhile since I read it but a few passages sound familiar.
Of course, if one wants to, they can find a "similar" passage in the bible.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#4

Post by Noah1201 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:57 pm

Besides, Allah never claims to be all-loving. He explicitly says that he only loves Muslims. So of course his treatment of non-Muslims is not going to sound loving. On the other hand, many Christians believe that Jehovah loves everyone. Yet one can find nearly identical passages in the Bible. If you are consistent in your thinking, you would have to admit that the biblical God doesn't sound loving either.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#5

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:12 pm

Noah1201 wrote:I only skimmed quickly through these verses, and as far I can see, almost all of them have something to do with unbelievers and other sinners being doomed to eternal agony in Hell. I don't know about you, but this sounds awfully familiar to what you find in the Bible.

(if you already chastise other belief systems, then it would be wise not to use arguments whose identical versions can be used against your own religion).

Really?

Unbelief in the koran is based on unbelief in muhammad not unbelief in god, as the bible unbelief is reffered generally to unbelief in god. That is your first error.

Secondly these are mostly in context, most bible verses likewise are not; and If you took the time to read and understand the bible I think you would understand the reasoning for god ordering say the sacking of jerico.

3rd, The bible says nowhere to murder and slaughter those whom you disagree with (unless you take it out of context). Again these quotes are all in context and if you do not believe me please, go right ahead, pick up a koran and read up.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#6

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:14 pm

Give me the bible quote where it says to kill muslims, buddhist, jews, ect.. and I will never argue another word.

The FACT is the koran says to kill christians and jews, and also states they will burn in hell and have 0 chance of not going to hell because god poisined them and wants to tourture them.

You ignore facts, read up, read the koran and then make uneducated and offencive remarks. Although I have not read the koran, from what I have seen and read from it, it is hateful , Jesus is loving, and I KNOW That.
Last edited by Murray on Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#7

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:19 pm

The largest differance is the christian god whom loves and cares will judge all fairly and just, the muslim god will condem any who does not know muhammad because he likes to touture and enjoys death.

And honestly, I have read parts of the koran, you can hardley call me uneducated on the topic; why don't you read the koran and then come back because honestly you make a fool out of your self by arguing a topic you know little about.
Last edited by Murray on Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#8

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:30 pm

Noah, show me the love in this.

There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#9

Post by neo-x » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:30 pm

Hey, I am with Murray here, I have 13 korans, and I can tell you for certain that while God will judge the wicked in the Bible, the problem is, allah never grants redemption. the good gets better, the bad gets worse, there is nothing for the sinner. the God we worship is different, he loves the sinner,only Jesus saves the sinner, offers him redemption. the people who call the christian God, cruel, do not know God, his love and his nature. They may know but they do not have personal experience of his loving nature. for if they had experienced they would know, when is God being just and why is he not cruel.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#10

Post by Noah1201 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:00 pm

I am amazed... I never thought I would live to see such astounding hypocrisy. Your argument essentially amounts to saying that it's only loving to send disbelievers in hell when your religion does it, but when any other does it, it means their god is wicked and enjoys torture and death.

Anyone with a slightest shred of intellectual honesty can see how laughably bad this "reasoning" is. Come on, people. I know there are plenty of reasonable people on this forum. Don't be ashamed to call stupid what it is just because it is uttered by someone who shares your religious beliefs.
Murray wrote: Unbelief in the koran is based on unbelief in muhammad not unbelief in god, as the bible unbelief is reffered generally to unbelief in god.
Wrong, this is a blatant lie. You know very well that Christianity promises eternal damnation, not just to unbelievers in God, but unbelievers in Christianity. The only difference in Islamic theology is that they substitute the word "Christianity" for "Islam". So essentially: "it's okay when my religion does it, but it's evil when yours does". Absurd.
Secondly these are mostly in context, most bible verses likewise are not; and If you took the time to read and understand the bible I think you would understand the reasoning for god ordering say the sacking of jerico.
I've never even mentioned that destruction of Jericho.
Give me the bible quote where it says to kill muslims, buddhist, jews, ect.. and I will never argue another word.

The FACT is the koran says to kill christians and jews, and also states they will burn in hell and have 0 chance of not going to hell because god poisined them and wants to tourture them.
Wrong. They can go to Heaven if they repent and accept Islam, just like in Christianity. Muhammed himself was a polytheist before turning to Islam.

As for the killing of non-believers... let me first say that you are changing the subject now, because we were discussing the doctrine of Hell (almost all the verses you list in the initial post are about hell). No matter what I say on this topic will not change how blatantly hypocritical your views on Hell are [1]. But of course, as it happens, there is no lesser hypocrisy here. You are, of course, aware that the Old Testament calls for the execution of non-Judaists. Even if these laws are no longer binding the follower of the Bible, they were at one point. If the Koran's laws are cruel, the Bible's are no less.

[1] I am aware that this area is slightly more controversial. Because, for example, Paul Copan argued that the Old Testament civil laws are not an expression of God's ideal will. But I don't see why the Muslim couldn't argue the same thing. In any case, it would be unfair to pretend that only one book contains a demand for the execution of non-believers when in fact both do.
neo-x wrote:Hey, I am with Murray here, I have 13 korans, and I can tell you for certain that while God will judge the wicked in the Bible, the problem is, allah never grants redemption.
Incorrect. Islam allows repentance no different than Christianity does, except atonement is not necessary.

I probably won't be responding to this thread anymore, mostly because I think it's a waste of time. This should in no way be interpreted as an inability to respond; I think that, in this case, the opposition's points are so childish and easily refuted that any reasonable person can see it without me or anyone else spelling it out.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#11

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:17 pm

You answered 0 of my questons, instead you babled incorrectly about islam and its holy book which you have never read, Not to mention degraded the bible at every chance.

Let me ask you something, Do you believe the bible is the word of god for the people of god? Becasue you seem very uneducated and critical of it, may I suggest spending more time reading the bible and less time trying to correct me on a book you have never read?
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#12

Post by Noah1201 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:07 pm

Essentially: "you're wrong, but I won't bother explaining why". Sorry, that won't fly. Until you respond to my central theses, I shall take your lack of response as a concession.

But I will answer your question... no, I do not believe the Bible is the word of God.

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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#13

Post by RickD » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:24 pm

Wrong, this is a blatant lie. You know very well that Christianity promises eternal damnation, not just to unbelievers in God, but unbelievers in Christianity. The only difference in Islamic theology is that they substitute the word "Christianity" for "Islam". So essentially: "it's okay when my religion does it, but it's evil when yours does". Absurd.
Where does the bible promise eternal damnation to unbelievers in "Christianity"?

Doesn't the bible promise eternal life to those who believe on Christ? John 3:16

This promise doesn't mention believing in any religion for eternal life. Just believing in what God has done through Christ.
John 5:24
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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#14

Post by RickD » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:33 pm

Noah1201 wrote:Essentially: "you're wrong, but I won't bother explaining why". Sorry, that won't fly. Until you respond to my central theses, I shall take your lack of response as a concession.

But I will answer your question... no, I do not believe the Bible is the word of God.
Noah, I'm confused. Your profile lists you as a Christian. Are you, or are you not a Christian?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Does This Sound Loving?

#15

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:57 pm

Noah1201 wrote:Essentially: "you're wrong, but I won't bother explaining why". Sorry, that won't fly. Until you respond to my central theses, I shall take your lack of response as a concession.

But I will answer your question... no, I do not believe the Bible is the word of God.

Refuse to answer my questions then demand I answer yours, I shall take your lack of responce as a concession.
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