??Confused??

Whether you are new or just lurking, take a moment to introduce yourself or discuss something general.
lilbassist93
Familiar Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:57 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

??Confused??

#1

Post by lilbassist93 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:34 pm

hi, im sorta confused right now,i don't seem to understand why God(a loving/forgiving god)would send good people to hell for not believing in Jesus, im sure there are good people who don't have faith in Christ who know lieing,stealing,cursing is wrong...etc. and try not to do it(basically follow the ten commandments without realizing it),what if they had a good heart but the only thing they lacked was faith in Jesus, would they still go to hell? :( ...i hope not...help me out ;)

lilbassist93
Familiar Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:57 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: ??Confused??

#2

Post by lilbassist93 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:36 pm

I hope you get what I'm trying to say, Sorry if it's not clear enough, im a little tired :)

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 10030
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 647 times
Been liked: 664 times

Re: ??Confused??

#3

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:29 am

lilbassist93 wrote:hi, im sorta confused right now,i don't seem to understand why God(a loving/forgiving god)would send good people to hell for not believing in Jesus, im sure there are good people who don't have faith in Christ who know lieing,stealing,cursing is wrong...etc. and try not to do it(basically follow the ten commandments without realizing it),what if they had a good heart but the only thing they lacked was faith in Jesus, would they still go to hell? :( ...i hope not...help me out ;)
Remove Jesus/Christianity from the equation for the moment and consider these questions:

1. Does it make sense for a completely holy God to accept unclean sinful people to any extent?

2. Are you completely clean of sin and entirely good?

If you answered these questions the same way I would, then we have a problem. God cannot accept you or I.

A completely holy God cannot accept any unclean person, for that would make God less than holy. I know I have also done wrongful things, hurtful things, and my natural self often likes to do things I know are wrong. Therefore, God can not accept me. I'm in a predicament. Nothing can undo the wrong things I have done. They leave a permanent mark etched in the past and have affected my life and the lives of others.

Thankfully, where I deserve judgment and condemnation, God's wisdom produced a way to cleanse me and make me clean. Jesus willingly humbled Himself and made this way possible bringing truth to His words: "I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

lilbassist93
Familiar Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:57 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: ??Confused??

#4

Post by lilbassist93 » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:19 am

ok,I sorta understand now :D

User avatar
jlay
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3616
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:47 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: ??Confused??

#5

Post by jlay » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:57 am

God doesn't send people to hell because they fail to believe in Jesus.

People go to hell because they have sinned against a holy, perfect, pure and righteous God. Sin is utterly sinful in the eyes of God. The bible teaches that none have kept his law. The first commandment is to have no other Gods. Have you/me/they put God first in all we do? If not then we have broken this command. Have you told a lie? If yes, then God sees you as a liar. The bible says, "all liars will have their place in the lake of fire.(rev.21) Ever looked with lust? God sees you as an adulterer at heart. (Matt 5) Ever hated anyone? God sees you as a murderer at heart. (Matt 5) In fact, James 2:10 says even if we keep the whole law and mess up just one, then we are guilty of breaking all of it.

People are condemned because they reject the light that God has given to every man, and follow darkness. Condemnation is the punishment for sin, not failure to believe. If someone does hear the true message of Christ and rejects it, then they will die and be judged according to thier sins. Trusting in Christ, means that your sentence has been comuted to Christ. He paid the fine with his death on the cross, you are free to go. Trust and repentance is where this exchange occurs.

Another way to look at it. If you jump out of a plane without a parachute, will you die because you forgot to put on a parachute? Actually no. You will die because you are violating the law of gravity. Gravity and the solid ground are what will kill you. Break the law of gravity at 10,000 feet, you die. Put on the parachute, and it overcomes the law, and you are saved. If you knew you were going to jump, you wouldn't just hold the parachute, or stick it under your seat. You would eagerly secure it to your person. You would know that your very life depends on it. It would be the most precious thing to you.

Everyone is going through this flight of life, and the jump is coming. Put on the Lord Jesus. Trust in him for salvation like you would trust in a parachute. Cling to Him.

We make the mistake of assuming people are good. Jesus said, "only God is good." We compare people to people instead of to his glorious standard. (rom 3:23) God sees your thoughts and says that every thought will be brought under judgement. Because God is good, he will see to it that every murderer is given justice. He will also see that liars and adulterers, are brought to justice.

God is loving and forgiving. But he does not violate His sense of justice or hate (God hates evil) in the process. The cross is God's love demonstrated. (Rom 5:8)
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: ??Confused??

#6

Post by Gman » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:52 am

I guess my take on this is that God doesn't send anyone to hell. We do... God simply exposes our hearts and if we rejected Him, then ultimately God has to honor our decisions and send us to hell.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

User avatar
jlay
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3616
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:47 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: ??Confused??

#7

Post by jlay » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:24 pm

I've heard that saying, and I guess I can live with it. You could say that a judge wouldn't send a criminal to prison if there was no crime committed. An interesting verse is Romans 1:24 & 26. I mean don't miss this. Paul is writing about God's wrath. So how does God demonstrate His wrath? It says, "Therefore God gave them over." Twice. He gave them over. Remember the Fleetwood Mac song, "you can go your own way." He turns us loose to our own ways.

But let's not forget who the judge is and who has the authority to hand down judgment. It is the character of the judge that is key to understanding judgment and condemnation. God doesn't grade on a curve. Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28

That is why men like Wesley said we should preach 90% law and 10% grace. Men must see their sin for what it is. Wicked, depraved, and utterly sinful. Then and only then will they flee to the cross and truly embrace it. Is it any wonder we have so many lukewarm Christians today and such a compromised church. They have been fed a watered down gospel that appeals to the flesh.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

User avatar
madscientist
Valued Member
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:29 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: St Andrews, Fife, UK / Prievidza, Slovakia
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: ??Confused??

#8

Post by madscientist » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:01 pm

think i can see what u saying, lilbassist93... the fact why God allows people to go to hell if He foreknows they'll do so? yeah. harsh question, i dont know answer either to be honest. is that what u meant?

As for the rest - yes we are sinful but again isnt that our nature? atheists use the argument that it is not good for God to send people to hell just because they dont believe in JC - they think its ridiculous that any god would do that - punish someone eternally because he failed to believe some set "rule". Again, the thing that if we werent sinful we wouldnt need to believe is good, but thats not the case. Hence, can we really blame ourselves for being sinful? well, atheists say that if God created us such (to translate it - even if He didnt, He allowed us to be corrupt by choice of first human being) - if we are sinful in our nature then why shud we be held accountable for it? He is perfect, Holy, so He can stay so if He wishes, but if we were created unperfect and with faults, and if EVERYONE sinned (except Jesus - Who, of course, managed it - but because He was God - believe if He were any ordinary man He wouldnt have! and Virgin Mary) then why shud we be punished simply because we werent created perfect? How could God expect for us to be perfect? I mean, Adam and eve sinned as they had the choice, but why are we held accountable (or responsible?) for sinning - even if just once, if it's simply IMPOSSIBLE for us not to sin?
God then has the right to punish us if we could stay sinless etc - but, we grew as kids etc and we sinned probably when still not aware its a sin etc and then? we are damned! Thanks God He gives us JC as a means of salvation - just imagine what it'd be if He created billions of human beings and then let us all to hell because we all sinned. again i'd say if for example 50% could stay sinless then yes, but if everyone is sinful then why are we all "blamed" for sinning if it is well the result of our non-perfect nature?
Satan was probably a different case since he knew what awaited him, but we didnt when we first sinned. and if someone were not to sin at all, would that person still be accountable for the original sin?
"Love is only possible if a choice of either love or rejecting the love is given." One of the most true things id ever heard, not so long ago.

-MMS-

lilbassist93
Familiar Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:57 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: ??Confused??

#9

Post by lilbassist93 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:56 pm

Thats sorta what i meant madscientist...anyway that brings me to another question...What happens to the people who died without even hearing about Jesus Christ? Do they go to heaven or hell? y:-?

User avatar
madscientist
Valued Member
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:29 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: St Andrews, Fife, UK / Prievidza, Slovakia
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: ??Confused??

#10

Post by madscientist » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:04 am

hey man ! :D arent we like brothers or something? :D have the exact same questions, totally understand what u mean. so now we are 2 who can go on and speculate what happens to those people. some say that as Bible says JC is the ONLY way it means that they go to hell; others say that that'd be cruel so those who havent heard are gonna be given some chance, or that they gonna b judged upon whether they lived according to their conscience - so, a good man who was good honest and loved others is like a man who believed in JC and then lived such good life or then if someone does evil then he's like that man who refuses JC or who says he believes but is a bad hypocrite.
And was your question mainly if those who have the possibility but refuse (pride? mainly... or a lack of good arguments?) OR u meant those who never heard? well, for example if u have christians and atheists coexisting then yes, atheists could be believers but often they refuse. e.g.... overhere, some people yes we ttried to make them believe etc and argue - was like 2-3 catholics on lunch/dinner table, some noncatholics and 2 atheists but somehow they'd say whats the point, that every religion is like that, that why believe something if other religions say the same thing, that they are happy with the life they have and etc those sorts of arguments. One Jewish guy even said he likes being Jewish because "it is so much cooler to be a Jew/Muslim than Christian". Hmm wait a minute!! Also, some say why would a God send people to hell if they are bad, that it's ridiculous and say there are many religions and that religions were made up to control population - believe me or not i completely agree with this, but even though i could say i am a believer and that Christianity is somehow different... :roll:

Again, as we christians should believe we are the "right" that doesnt mean we shoudl put to shame others or make them inferior - how then would they be willing to do so? One friend a devout catholic somehow over last few days seems to have somewhat lost his faith as some arguments seem unconvincing... he studies philosophy, and it seemed to him mroe arguments point to fact it's not so and that it doesn't make sense. Again, for example Catholics we believe contraception is wrong... now we argued with others, for them the arguments seem to make sense but for me and him they don't... is it that we are stupid or proud? DOn't think so! But, why believe something just so? I mean, he says that if one uses logic then the argument that condoms etc are wrong is rather bad, and that he sees nothing wrong in it... so, that's a case when some doubts and lack of arguments may result in loss of faith or serious doubts!! :P

Hope that helps; I'm very open to discuss those sorts of questions - if u want go & have look at my posts some questions are insane and yes people answered, i was satisfied with the answer as some flow of neurotransmitters in my brain made me satisfied but then i questioned again and that doesnt make me any more happy than i had been before! God bless and let's hope He shows us THE TRUTH! :amen:
"Love is only possible if a choice of either love or rejecting the love is given." One of the most true things id ever heard, not so long ago.

-MMS-

lilbassist93
Familiar Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:57 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: ??Confused??

#11

Post by lilbassist93 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:53 pm

Hello again madscientist! :D How have you been?
And was your question mainly if those who have the possibility but refuse (pride? mainly... or a lack of good arguments?) OR u meant those who never heard?
I'm talking about those who have died without even hearing about Jesus/The bible etc...what would happen to them? Would they have an excuse since they have never heard of Jesus?

cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: ??Confused??

#12

Post by cslewislover » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:14 pm

Here's one short essay on this issue: http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx ... &Topic=748

Here's another one, a little longer and a little more detailed: http://www.bethinking.org.uk/truth-tole ... gospel.htm
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

lilbassist93
Familiar Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:57 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: ??Confused??

#13

Post by lilbassist93 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:49 pm

Thanks C.S. the second link helped more than the first one :)

User avatar
madscientist
Valued Member
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:29 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: St Andrews, Fife, UK / Prievidza, Slovakia
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: ??Confused??

#14

Post by madscientist » Sat May 09, 2009 10:11 am

Hm didnt have a read of all of it- just looked some at sencond link and looks like man's without excuse. wait a minute-but does taht imply that it is invalid to saythere are none who havent heard? I mean, there are many religions thatsthe other thing. according to that, if a man let say at birth were separated and lived in a jungle for 20 yrs he should've come to conclusion theres God - but then why need to evangelize? if it's innate in us thatwe come to conclusion theres a God why evangelize? And if one comes to "conclusion" for oneself that other religion seems correct how will God judge those? I mean, there are bunch of non-christians, some of which live good moral lives and some which do not. Clearly, if one lives according to conscience (occasionaly sinning but God does see man's heart and does distinguisg whether he's focused on evil or good) - so hows that? Maube the article adresses it i didnt read all of it :P
Hmm, well, the RBC i heard is a very protestant thing... a catholic friend of mine criticized some of its views... so, how to be unbiased?
"Love is only possible if a choice of either love or rejecting the love is given." One of the most true things id ever heard, not so long ago.

-MMS-

User avatar
imoneru?
Familiar Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:32 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: ??Confused??

#15

Post by imoneru? » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:17 pm

madscientist wrote:think i can see what u saying, lilbassist93... the fact why God allows people to go to hell if He foreknows they'll do so? yeah. harsh question, i dont know answer either to be honest. is that what u meant?

As for the rest - yes we are sinful but again isnt that our nature? atheists use the argument that it is not good for God to send people to hell just because they dont believe in JC - they think its ridiculous that any god would do that - punish someone eternally because he failed to believe some set "rule". Again, the thing that if we werent sinful we wouldnt need to believe is good, but thats not the case. Hence, can we really blame ourselves for being sinful? well, atheists say that if God created us such (to translate it - even if He didnt, He allowed us to be corrupt by choice of first human being) - if we are sinful in our nature then why shud we be held accountable for it? He is perfect, Holy, so He can stay so if He wishes, but if we were created unperfect and with faults, and if EVERYONE sinned (except Jesus - Who, of course, managed it - but because He was God - believe if He were any ordinary man He wouldnt have! and Virgin Mary) then why shud we be punished simply because we werent created perfect? How could God expect for us to be perfect? I mean, Adam and eve sinned as they had the choice, but why are we held accountable (or responsible?) for sinning - even if just once, if it's simply IMPOSSIBLE for us not to sin?
God then has the right to punish us if we could stay sinless etc - but, we grew as kids etc and we sinned probably when still not aware its a sin etc and then? we are damned! Thanks God He gives us JC as a means of salvation - just imagine what it'd be if He created billions of human beings and then let us all to hell because we all sinned. again i'd say if for example 50% could stay sinless then yes, but if everyone is sinful then why are we all "blamed" for sinning if it is well the result of our non-perfect nature?
Satan was probably a different case since he knew what awaited him, but we didnt when we first sinned. and if someone were not to sin at all, would that person still be accountable for the original sin?

Great Post...And I wish I was able to accept it in it's entirety , The reason I say this is because I was raised in a family that were devout members of a Reformed church and their believe is one that like most Presbyterians they follow the teaching of Calvin who taught the doctrine of Predestionation, Therefore because I feel that because, in Jesus own words as quoted by the Apostel John in chapter 6:44,65 "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" and because I feel I have not been granted that gift I cannot consider myself to be a Christian and predestioned to be accepted as such.

If you are unfamiliar with the doctrine of predestionation it is based on something called "The Eternal Covenent" which states that God has given a certain number of people to the Son and that the Son came to redeem them to "lose none of them" When Jesus prayed in the garden those were the ones He prayed for (see John 17:1-26) He did also include "Those who would believe on me because of their word" but those were also predestioned by God as He is able to forsee the future and knew those who He would call or elect to salvation. (For many are called but few chosen)

The whole subject of predestination gets pretty involved and the discussion of "Free Will" vs "Predistination has been going on for years the main point of argument seems to be that because man is sinful. He does not become a sinner by sinning. He sins because he is a sinner. He is depraved, which means that sin has corrupted all that he is: mind, soul, spirit,emotions,and body. That being the case there is nothing in him that merits or inables salvation, because a thoroughly sinful nature cannotreach out to a thoroughly righteous God. It then follows that out of his utterly sinful condition, only sinful desires and effects will follow. Therefore the predestionist believes that Predestionation is a loving doctrine..."In love He predestioned us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ" (Eph.1:4,5)

The followers of John Calvin will tell you that because God dosn't owe us anything that the question is not "Why would He only choose some?"but rather why did He choose ANY?...So that having been said I guess that is one of the main reasons I don't consider myself a Christian, because Jesus said "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN" and I haven't been...God Bless ..Ray

Post Reply