Martin Luther and music

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Gman
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Martin Luther and music

#1

Post by Gman » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:55 am

I ran across this quote today by Martin Luther at a coffee shop. I was quite impressed that he equated music to theology.... At the same level.

“I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us.” -Martin Luther

What do you guys think about this? Do you agree?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#2

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:21 pm

Gman wrote:I ran across this quote today by Martin Luther at a coffee shop. I was quite impressed that he equated music to theology.... At the same level.

“I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us.” -Martin Luther

What do you guys think about this? Do you agree?
In general yes. Music can be perverted and twisted just like most other good things.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#3

Post by TheFlyingChristian » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:16 pm

The Bible tells us that Satan has good musical abilities but I can't find the biblical verse for this reference.
Music is used more by Satan than by people to teach about God. I don't think he hates it because it is one of his tools.
Most of the time music gives you an evil spirit with all the subliminal methods and lyrics. Music is often something that casts unwanted thoughts, considering that subconscious is very powerful. Music is a powerful tool for satanists.

So I disagree with that statement.

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#4

Post by zoegirl » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:47 pm

Music, as with everything else in creation, was made by God. It was corrupted and perverted b y the fall but remains, just as with art, a means of glorifying an worshiping God and reflecting His truths.

We will sing HIs praises in the new creation. But certainly music is something that is used by Satan...that does not make music evil or something to fear in and of itself
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#5

Post by Gman » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:19 pm

Sorry.. I should make the question clearer. Can we place music at the same level as theology? We know music can be used for either good or bad purposes but can we place it on the same level of importance as theology?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#6

Post by zoegirl » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:37 pm

Gman wrote:Sorry.. I should make the question clearer. Can we place music at the same level as theology? We know music can be used for either good or bad purposes but can we place it on the same level of importance as theology?
Hmm...as a means to study God? (my apologies for misunderstanding....if I'm still not getting it...)

insofar as theology is more....a direct study of God, then perhaps I would not elevate Music to the same level. Or at least I would perhaps equate it with the creation as a general revelation of God. Music and art and creation, that revelation of harmony and beauty, reveal an order to the universe that directs us to a creator, and His character, but does not reveal His identity the way His Word does.

I would perhaps say that I disagree with the semantics of Luther's statements...but I wonder what *he* meant? Is there any elaboration with that comment?

"I place it next to theology" If by that he means the means to draw close to God, such as prayer or study? then absolutely I would agree to that
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#7

Post by Gman » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:54 pm

zoegirl wrote:insofar as theology is more....a direct study of God, then perhaps I would not elevate Music to the same level. Or at least I would perhaps equate it with the creation as a general revelation of God. Music and art and creation, that revelation of harmony and beauty, reveal an order to the universe that directs us to a creator, and His character, but does not reveal His identity the way His Word does.
Yes I know but could it in a spiritual sense?
zoegirl wrote:iI would perhaps say that I disagree with the semantics of Luther's statements...but I wonder what *he* meant? Is there any elaboration with that comment?
I really haven't looked.. He seems to be implying that it can drive out spirits as it did with Saul I believe. I believe God's words can do the same. I hope so anyways... ;)
zoegirl wrote:"I place it next to theology" If by that he means the means to draw close to God, such as prayer or study? then absolutely I would agree to that
Yes... That is what I think he is implying also.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#8

Post by zoegirl » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:13 pm

Gman wrote:
zoegirl wrote: insofar as theology is more....a direct study of God, then perhaps I would not elevate Music to the same level. Or at least I would perhaps equate it with the creation as a general revelation of God. Music and art and creation, that revelation of harmony and beauty, reveal an order to the universe that directs us to a creator, and His character, but does not reveal His identity the way His Word does.

Yes I know but could it in a spiritual sense?
I think God can use it, certainly, but ultimately it would be the Holy Spirit that would be wielding the music. Drawing us to Him. I think it can reveal some of His character, His glory, His beauty, His harmony, His majesty....but not His identity as Jehovah as presented in His word.

What is it about music? It drives me absolutely nuts, honestly, to be in a worship service where modern music is played. Drums...blech....now perhaps this is due more to the misuse of them than the instrument but it is so anemic as worship to me. I don't have that same visceral reaction to the chapel music at school, and I think that is due more to the talent prehaps, in the students playing it.

Listening to a beautiful BEethoven sonata, to me, can be more meditative than the most obvious Christian modern music. I can pray to God listening to any piece of Baroque music that the more bluntly Christian song.

So is that piece by Beethoven or Hadyn or BAch serving God's purpose? Yes...is that harmony and beauty bringing me closer to God? Yes...should that be my devotional? My method of communing with God? Not independently....no

Would that piece, by itself, bring someone to God? I think it can serve to do so...but I doubt it can bring someone to God in the sense of a saving knowledge of Christ. After all, God identified HImself to Saul as well.
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#9

Post by bizzt » Tue May 13, 2008 7:20 am

TheFlyingChristian wrote:The Bible tells us that Satan has good musical abilities but I can't find the biblical verse for this reference.
Music is used more by Satan than by people to teach about God. I don't think he hates it because it is one of his tools.
Most of the time music gives you an evil spirit with all the subliminal methods and lyrics. Music is often something that casts unwanted thoughts, considering that subconscious is very powerful. Music is a powerful tool for satanists.

So I disagree with that statement.
That would be
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#10

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue May 13, 2008 8:03 am

Gman wrote:Sorry.. I should make the question clearer. Can we place music at the same level as theology? We know music can be used for either good or bad purposes but can we place it on the same level of importance as theology?
I would say that yes, music can be at the same level as theology. Music is powerful. It has the advantage of repitition...especially when we are lulled by the music itself and comforted by the words. If we simply look at the world today...teenagers specifically...they thrive on music. The Christian music scene has simply exploded in the past 10 years or so. I remember when it was a sort of taboo too listen to the "contemporary Christian" music...but that could've been just an SDA thing. Nowadays it is the norm.

There is a ministry in music in regard to the theology of Christianity.
.
.

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Re: Martin Luther and music

#11

Post by Daniel » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:33 pm

Even though I was very exposed to modern Christian music growing up, to me, nothing beats a good old-fashioned hymn with the organ reverberating in the sanctuary. Just a personal preference as far as worship goes.

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