Logical and Open-minded Discussion

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Mr._Burns
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Logical and Open-minded Discussion

#1

Post by Mr._Burns » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:22 am

Hello, I'm a new member.

While this is my first post I have been reading the forum for quite a while. I have hesitated to join and post even though there have been many topics I was interested in contributing to.

The main reason is the lack of some members to openly discuss a topic in a logical and open-minded manner. For example, there have been many statements made by different members stating beliefs in a certain area. They have those beliefs because they believe a piece of information they state in a post is proof or evidence that their view is rock solid. They not only believe it is rock solid but that it also proves the other side is wrong. But then I see a reply from another member to that post totally debunking that piece of information without question with proof from widely accepted sources. Now the person who posted that statement totally tosses aside the information and the source that refuted their “rock solid” statement. They were just proven completely wrong and shrug it off like it doesn't mean a thing with their view unchanged. Now logically someone would accept that they were wrong and consider that their belief is flawed or wrong. Well I've seen this happen here on a regular basis, which is why I haven't posted until now.

If I had made some suppovously rock solid claim that was easily refuted I would be too embarassed to return and make another post. Instead some people shrug it off like it doesn't matter. Even though realistically they should now have little credability because it was shown they seriously lack knowledge in the topics being discussed.

So why should I post??? Most likely I will make a post proving a statement made by another member is wrong. I'm sure it will be blown off because someone wants to believe in something no matter what.

Another thing I have noticed is an overwhelming amount of ignorant comments by one side. Which has displayed the lack of maturity by many (not all) members on that side. Its shows not only a lack of maturity but a lack knowledge in both areas being discussed.

Now sure how this post will be taken since I have seen many posts deleted and members banned. I hope the members and the admins will take this post with the openness and maturity they say they have.

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#2

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:38 am

So much for open-mindedness...you assume from the get go you're right, we're wrong. Genius, pure genius!
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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#3

Post by Mr._Burns » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:15 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:So much for open-mindedness...you assume from the get go you're right, we're wrong. Genius, pure genius!
Hmmm, I wonder why your soo bothered by my post...

I said nothing about going in and assuming I'm right. If you read my post you would see I commented on people who post false statements suporting their view.

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#4

Post by Cook » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:42 am

I am fairly new here and know what you are saying, Mr. Burns. There's no getting around that some people have their settled concrete views and are not here for open-minded discussion but to display their own way of thinking. (The latter is not necessarily bad, views can be strongly held because they are good ones! I think your concern more is about views that you perceive as being held because the poster doesn't want to address or admit to shortcomings brought to light.) That is the case at about any forum or any group of people. I am still not sure what the ratio is between the two types -- or what is the quality of those solidified views -- maybe you have even been observing the forum longer than I have been here, but so far I've had generally positive engagements with other posters. Maybe it's also because I don't have overly high expectations and try to keep perspective. I'm not here on a mission to change people's opinions, although I'm glad when my way of thinking turns out to be useful to somebody else, and while I'll thoughtfully consider people's opinions and arguments, ultimately it's my call to take them or leave them.

Inevitably you have to filter what's of use to you vs. what's not. For instance the reply above, sarcasm and IMO antagonism toward what was a fair post on your part. Some people are just going to be like that. You took the time to formulate a well-spoken introduction of yourself and your mindset, well, can't let some dismissive scant words like those bug you. Even if some people react that way, others are reading here with more of an open mind and understanding. Welcome to the board and I look forward to reading your opinions on future topics. By the way, what are your interests?
So why should I post??? Most likely I will make a post proving a statement made by another member is wrong. I'm sure it will be blown off because someone wants to believe in something no matter what.
You can't control what other people choose to accept or not, of course. I'll also point out that you also won't know whether you've assisted people since many more people read a given message than post their opinion. If you need all readers to concur with you on points you think are obviously true, then I think it will be hard to justify to yourself that it is worthwhile for you to post, since that is very rare. What if out of 30 people reading a topic, this is even lopsideded and 20 people disagree or ignore you? Maybe the other ten though have a gain in understanding, perhaps one or two even profoundly (which you might not even know). Is that worthwhile to you? You're the only judge.

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#5

Post by Forge » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:35 pm

Some people just aren't as tactful as others. That doesn't mean they'e illogical.
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#6

Post by Mr._Burns » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:39 pm

Cook wrote:I am fairly new here and know what you are saying, Mr. Burns. There's no getting around that some people have their settled concrete views and are not here for open-minded discussion but to display their own way of thinking. (The latter is not necessarily bad, views can be strongly held because they are good ones! I think your concern more is about views that you perceive as being held because the poster doesn't want to address or admit to shortcomings brought to light.) That is the case at about any forum or any group of people. I am still not sure what the ratio is between the two types -- or what is the quality of those solidified views -- maybe you have even been observing the forum longer than I have been here, but so far I've had generally positive engagements with other posters. Maybe it's also because I don't have overly high expectations and try to keep perspective. I'm not here on a mission to change people's opinions, although I'm glad when my way of thinking turns out to be useful to somebody else, and while I'll thoughtfully consider people's opinions and arguments, ultimately it's my call to take them or leave them.

Inevitably you have to filter what's of use to you vs. what's not. For instance the reply above, sarcasm and IMO antagonism toward what was a fair post on your part. Some people are just going to be like that. You took the time to formulate a well-spoken introduction of yourself and your mindset, well, can't let some dismissive scant words like those bug you. Even if some people react that way, others are reading here with more of an open mind and understanding. Welcome to the board and I look forward to reading your opinions on future topics. By the way, what are your interests?
So why should I post??? Most likely I will make a post proving a statement made by another member is wrong. I'm sure it will be blown off because someone wants to believe in something no matter what.
You can't control what other people choose to accept or not, of course. I'll also point out that you also won't know whether you've assisted people since many more people read a given message than post their opinion. If you need all readers to concur with you on points you think are obviously true, then I think it will be hard to justify to yourself that it is worthwhile for you to post, since that is very rare. What if out of 30 people reading a topic, this is even lopsideded and 20 people disagree or ignore you? Maybe the other ten though have a gain in understanding, perhaps one or two even profoundly (which you might not even know). Is that worthwhile to you? You're the only judge.

I know what your saying about people choosing to accept. It doesn't bother me that someone believes something different than me. What I have a problem with is someones refusal to accept widely supported evidence proving a statement of theirs wrong. Whats worse than that is making a bold statement in an area they clearly have no knowledge of and are proven wrong. When proven wrong they shrug it off like its no big deal. It sure is interesting seeing someone try to back up a view with information that that is false. I'm not saying they knowingly lied, they just don't have much if any knowledge in one or both areas. I'm all for people speaking their mind, but if they don't know something its better for them just to not comment on it, or actually look up the topic that is being discussed and learn it before stating false information.

I'm not here to change anyone's mind because I know thats not going to happen. Just here to share my views and enlighten some people to an area that they aren't familiar with.

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#7

Post by Mr._Burns » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:42 pm

Forge wrote:Some people just aren't as tactful as others. That doesn't mean they'e illogical.
Well how logical is it to base your beliefs on information that they can easily find out is wrong? I'm not talking about the overall view between the two sides. I mean the little pieces of info here and there that they claim gives them their belief.

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#8

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:44 pm

Mr._Burns wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:So much for open-mindedness...you assume from the get go you're right, we're wrong. Genius, pure genius!
Hmmm, I wonder why your soo bothered by my post...

I said nothing about going in and assuming I'm right. If you read my post you would see I commented on people who post false statements suporting their view.
I was not bothered by your post. I just made fun of it.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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#9

Post by Mystical » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:25 pm

:? I haven't gotten the same impression you have. I also think that very few people blow commenters off just because they want to believe in something "no matter what." I have reviewed many of the comments made on this site regarding numerous topics and found many to be extremely logical and intelligent. I think the problem is that one side gets tired of the other side blowing them off in favor of the illogical. I think another problem might be that commenters often post with the urgency that their views be accepted or proven wrong immediately; at the same time, posting numerous views at once. It's always tiresome to look up info. again, and again, and again...especially for someone who's so feverishly clinging to their beliefs that anyone with any sense realizes they don't want the truth, they just want to be right.

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#10

Post by Mr._Burns » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:25 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
Mr._Burns wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:So much for open-mindedness...you assume from the get go you're right, we're wrong. Genius, pure genius!
Hmmm, I wonder why your soo bothered by my post...

I said nothing about going in and assuming I'm right. If you read my post you would see I commented on people who post false statements suporting their view.
I was not bothered by your post. I just made fun of it.
Well you sure made a big assumption about me, with just one post. When my post didn't in any insinuate that I'm always right. Like I said before I was remarking on people ignoring well supported facts in order to support their own personal beliefs.

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#11

Post by Mr._Burns » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:36 am

Mystical wrote::? I haven't gotten the same impression you have. I also think that very few people blow commenters off just because they want to believe in something "no matter what." I have reviewed many of the comments made on this site regarding numerous topics and found many to be extremely logical and intelligent. I think the problem is that one side gets tired of the other side blowing them off in favor of the illogical. I think another problem might be that commenters often post with the urgency that their views be accepted or proven wrong immediately; at the same time, posting numerous views at once. It's always tiresome to look up info. again, and again, and again...especially for someone who's so feverishly clinging to their beliefs that anyone with any sense realizes they don't want the truth, they just want to be right.
Well that could very well be what you see. But the high majority of my comments are regarding the God and Science forum. Where as I'm sure you know tension run a little high.

A person doesn't have to constantly look up info. Their not forced to, but you can't expect someone to take your word on everything you say. If you going to make a bold statement you better be prepared to back it up. Especially since people on both sides are trying to prove their view right. Its all about the proof... Besides, if they were really knowledgable in what they are arguing about then it shouldn't take them much time to back up their statements with references.

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#12

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:44 am

Mr._Burns wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
Mr._Burns wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:So much for open-mindedness...you assume from the get go you're right, we're wrong. Genius, pure genius!
Hmmm, I wonder why your soo bothered by my post...

I said nothing about going in and assuming I'm right. If you read my post you would see I commented on people who post false statements suporting their view.
I was not bothered by your post. I just made fun of it.
Well you sure made a big assumption about me, with just one post. When my post didn't in any insinuate that I'm always right. Like I said before I was remarking on people ignoring well supported facts in order to support their own personal beliefs.
How about we dispense with the generalizations and talk specifics. First, welcome to the board, Mr. Burns.

Is there a specific thread or topic that bothered you in particular? (without naming names, if you're uncomfortable with that). What topics would you like to discuss? I believe I read somewhere that you are here to educate others in certain subjects. Could you give us a quick background check and what subjects in which you can be of help? We're always open to learning. Hope you stick around.

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#13

Post by B. W. » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:18 am

Byblos wrote:
How about we dispense with the generalizations and talk specifics. First, welcome to the board, Mr. Burns.

Is there a specific thread or topic that bothered you in particular? (without naming names, if you're uncomfortable with that). What topics would you like to discuss? I believe I read somewhere that you are here to educate others in certain subjects. Could you give us a quick background check and what subjects in which you can be of help? We're always open to learning. Hope you stick around.
Ditto!! and more Ditto's :D

Welcome Mr. Burns to the Site!

FYI: There is a free flow discussion currently on the Theology forum - on the 'Hell is it Relevant Today' thread - on the subject of original sin and punishment. I have hung my doctrine on the door and exploring the subject again with an open mind - so are the others on this thread who agree with this style of discussion- please feel free to join in any time. I am learning much from this type of open discussion and it has given me much to think about.

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#14

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:25 am

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"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

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#15

Post by Mr._Burns » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:25 am

Byblos wrote:
Mr._Burns wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
Mr._Burns wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:So much for open-mindedness...you assume from the get go you're right, we're wrong. Genius, pure genius!
Hmmm, I wonder why your soo bothered by my post...

I said nothing about going in and assuming I'm right. If you read my post you would see I commented on people who post false statements suporting their view.
I was not bothered by your post. I just made fun of it.
Well you sure made a big assumption about me, with just one post. When my post didn't in any insinuate that I'm always right. Like I said before I was remarking on people ignoring well supported facts in order to support their own personal beliefs.
How about we dispense with the generalizations and talk specifics. First, welcome to the board, Mr. Burns.

Is there a specific thread or topic that bothered you in particular? (without naming names, if you're uncomfortable with that). What topics would you like to discuss? I believe I read somewhere that you are here to educate others in certain subjects. Could you give us a quick background check and what subjects in which you can be of help? We're always open to learning. Hope you stick around.
There isn't a specific thread in particular, although I frequent the God and Science forum the most.

I'll post a few recent example.

Mystical wrote:
"Why don't clones live? Scientifically? Spiritually? Maybe they don't have souls? Anyone ever think about this?"

Didn't know that some things do use cloning successfully (all-female salamander species, etc.)

Jbuza wrote:
"What is your explanation for the singularity of the snake as a land animal? IT's not that adaptive to not have legs. Everything else on land has legs."

Jbuza wrote:
"Well How could I be mistaken enyone can palinly see those look nothing like snakes. Nope not a thing in common. Internally they are very similar to snakes."

Jbuza wrote:
"I have already pointed out why, "ear structures, tongue structure, pelvis girdle arrangements, and lateral integument arrangements" don't work any more perfectly to distinguish between snakes and lizards than crawling around on the belly does."


Not true - ex. legless lizards, which are found in the US. A host of features that distinguish legless lizards from snakes such as ear structures, tongue structure, pelvis girdle arrangements, and lateral integument arrangement, among others.

Ark~Magic wrote:
"There are animals that have been around for years like dogs, cats, etc., and they have always been what they are, even in the most indifferent forms. Like with fish, the fishes are still fishes. The idea of them even transcending into non-sea creatures is ridiculous and is lacking in both science and philosophy."

So dogs haven't changed during recorded history with selective breeding? He responded with "you missed what he hell I was trying to say"" rather than what he should have said, which was "I was wrong"


Although I haven't seen this in a while on here it really bothers me is people saying that evolutionists claim we came from "monkeys." Totally false... First of all no we don't, no where does it say that. Second of all your thinking apes, we have the closest genetic similarity to apes, not monkeys. Which we don't come from either. Big difference between a ape and monkey.

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