For the truth seeker.

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
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For the truth seeker.

#1

Post by Anonymous » Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:42 am

G'Day August

You mentioned in Preists and Preachers entering islam thread…
All of this is anecdotal evidence at best, and has no bearing on anything. Since the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, more than a million people have converted to Christianity.

Muhammad, you are continuously using circular reasoning, you keep on using the Quran to justify the Quran, without having established that it is an authentic document from secular sources. Until you can show that, all quotes from the Quran does not really mean anything.
Comment One: All of this is anecdotal evidence at best, and has no bearing on anything. Since the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, more than a million people have converted to Christianity.

Firstly, know that as a muslim I will not accept fairytales spread by crusader sources. They are not acceptable as sources of truth. If you can prove to me that crusaders are capable of truth then show me that America are not liars. If you have evidence to show that they told the truth about Iraq and Afghanistan post it up. Otherwise until I hear it from those who “fear God” I'll not accept what you have claimed.

August, if the entire world apostated from Islam it doesn't mean it's wrong. And as a Christian if all the world said 'to hell with religion' it doesn't mean God and his law etc is cancelled. Everyone has a free will. It's their call.

Throughout history the right and the good has always been the lesser group. Nuh (Noah) (peace be upon him) had an uphill battle for hundreds of years and only a handful believed him. Didn't mean he was wrong.

Size doesn't matter. Might doesn't matter. Just firm trust in Allah (may He be glorified and exalted) though Christians used to call Him 'The Father' but now believe that Jesus is God without any support from their book.

Look at the history of the prophets. They were hated and cursed because they brought and represented truth. The jews have villified them in your bible because of their hatred for God's truth. This theme is common throughout history. Not many followed and obeyed. Doesn't mean its wrong.

Comment: Muhammad, you are continuously using circular reasoning, you keep on using the Quran to justify the Quran, without having established that it is an authentic document from secular sources. Until you can show that, all quotes from the Quran does not really mean anything.

If I filled this whole forum with proof you or anyone else wouldn't accept it if you have your heart and mind blocked. If it was anything other than the possiblility it was God's word you would make effort to gain something from it.

But the potential of discovering truth and the implications that implies forces our egos to shy away in disobedience. If the subject matter were anything else than a prolonged promise of hellfire and damnation and what's required to avoid the inevitable you would pick up 'the literature' and come to your own conclusion.

Instead you cast nastertiums from a position of no knowledge hoping the stones you throw will shatter the boogy-man. Why don't you listen to what Jesus told you. When you need help, go into your private room and pray to God (the Father) and no one else. And if you are sincere He will guide you. Seek and you will find — knock and the door will be opened. So instead of pushing knowledge away as the church is famous for, pick up the Quran and ask God in all sincerity to open your heart if it be truth or close your heart to Allah if what you read is falsehood. If you truly want to seek truth.

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#2

Post by August » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:27 am

Firstly, know that as a muslim I will not accept fairytales spread by crusader sources. They are not acceptable as sources of truth. If you can prove to me that crusaders are capable of truth then show me that America are not liars. If you have evidence to show that they told the truth about Iraq and Afghanistan post it up. Otherwise until I hear it from those who “fear God” I'll not accept what you have claimed.
This is laughable. I can easily turn this around: I don't believe fairytales spread by you, show that you are capable of the truth, since you or your sources are not not accpetable sources of truth. So unless you hear this from other Muslims, who you know will never admit it, you won't believe it.
August, if the entire world apostated from Islam it doesn't mean it's wrong. And as a Christian if all the world said 'to hell with religion' it doesn't mean God and his law etc is cancelled. Everyone has a free will. It's their call.
Then prove it is right.
Size doesn't matter. Might doesn't matter. Just firm trust in Allah (may He be glorified and exalted) though Christians used to call Him 'The Father' but now believe that Jesus is God without any support from their book.
Okay, if you say so:
CHRIST IS GOD
• As Jehovah. Isaiah 40:3; Matthew 3:3
• As Jehovah of glory. Psalm 24:7, 10; 1 Cor. 2:8; James 2:1
• As Jehovah, our RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:5-6; 1 Cor. 1:30
• As Jehovah, above all. Psalm 97:9; John 3:31
• As Jehovah, the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6; Rev. 1:17; Isaiah 48:12-16; Rev. 22:13
• As Jehovah's Fellow and Equal. Zech. 13:7; Phil. 2:6
• As Jehovah of Hosts. Isaiah 6:1-3; John 12:41; Isaiah 8:13-14; 1 Peter 2:8
• As Jehovah, the Shepherd. Isaiah 40:11; Hebrews 13:20
• As Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created. Proverbs 16:4; Col. 1:16
• As Jehovah, the Messenger of the covenant. Malachi 3:1; Mark 1:2; Luke 2:27
• Invoked as Jehovah. Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; 1 Cor. 1:2
• As the Eternal God and Creator. Psalm 102:24-27; Hebrews 1:8, 10-12
• As the mighty God. Isaiah 9:6
• As the Great God and Saviour. Hosea 1:7; Titus 2:13
• As God over all. Psalm 45:6-7; Romans 9:5
• As the true God. Jeremiah 10:10; 1 John 5:20
• As God the Word. John 1:1
• As God, the judge. Eccles. 12:14; 1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1
• As Emmanuel. Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23
• As King of kings and Lord of lords. Deut. 10:17; Rev. 1:5; Rev. 17:14
• As the Holy One. 1 Samuel 2:2; Acts 3:14
• As the Lord from heaven. 1 Cor. 15:47
• As Lord of the Sabbath. Genesis 2:3; Matthew 12:8
• As Lord of all. Acts 10:36; Romans 10:11-13
• As Son of God. Matthew 26:63-67
• As the Only-begotten Son of the Father. John 1:14, 18; John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9
• His blood is called the blood of God. Acts 20:28
• As one with the Father. John 10:30, 38; John 12:45; John 14:7-10; John 17:10
• As sending the Spirit, equally with the Father. John 14:16; John 15:26
• As entitled to equal honour with the Father. John 5:23
• As Owner of all things, equally with the Father. John 16:15
• As unrestricted by the law of the sabbath, equally with the Father. John 5:17
• As the Source of grace, equally with the Father. 1 Thes. 3:11; 2 Thes. 2:16-17
• As unsearchable, equally with the Father. Proverbs 30:4; Matthew 11:27
• As Creator of all things. Isaiah 40:28; John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Hebrews 1:2
• As Supporter and Preserver of all things. Neh. 9:6; Col. 1:17; Hebrews 1:3
• As possessed of the fulness of the God head. Col. 2:9; Hebrews 1:3
• As raising the dead. John 5:21; John 6:40, 54
• As raising himself from the dead. John 2:19, 21; John 10:18
• As Eternal. Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; Col. 1:17; Hebrews 1:8-10; Rev. 1:8
• As Omnipresent. Matthew 18:20; Matthew 28:20; John 3:13
• As Omnipotent. Psalm 45:3; Phil. 3:21; Rev. 1:8
• As Omniscient. John 16:30; John 21:17
• As discerning the thoughts of the heart. 1 Kings 8:39; Luke 5:22; Ezekiel 11:5; John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:23
• As unchangeable. Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 1:12; Hebrews 13:8
• As having power to forgive sins. Col. 3:13; Mark 2:7, 10
• As Giver of pastors to the Church. Jeremiah 3:15; Ephes. 4:11-13
• As Husband of the Church. Isaiah 54:5; Ephes. 5:25-32; Isaiah 62:5; Rev. 21:2, 9
• As the object of divine worship. Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 12:8-9; Hebrews 1:6; Rev. 5:12
• As the object of faith. Psalm 2:12; 1 Peter 2:6; Jeremiah 17:5, 7; John 14:1
• As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself. Rev. 5:9; Titus 2:14
• As God, he presents the Church to himself. Ephes. 5:27; Jude 1:24-25
• Saints live to him as God. Romans 6:11; Galatians 2:19; 2 Cor. 5:15
• Acknowledged by his Apostles. John 20:28
• Acknowledged by the Old Testament saints. Genesis 17:1; Genesis 48:15-16; Genesis 32:24-30; Hosea 12:3-5; Judges 6:22-24; Judges 13:21-22; Job 19:25-27
If I filled this whole forum with proof you or anyone else wouldn't accept it if you have your heart and mind blocked. If it was anything other than the possiblility it was God's word you would make effort to gain something from it.
But you have yet to show a single piece of proof, other than circular reasoning and anecdotes. The reverse also applies, do you not have your heart and mind blocked against the truth?
If the subject matter were anything else than a prolonged promise of hellfire and damnation and what's required to avoid the inevitable you would pick up 'the literature' and come to your own conclusion.
I have actually, have you?
Instead you cast nastertiums from a position of no knowledge hoping the stones you throw will shatter the boogy-man.
Please show where I have done this. You are the one continuing to make assertions without proof, yet you accuse me, whom you don't know, form having a position of no knowledge.
Why don't you listen to what Jesus told you.
Do you? How do you get to God, as Jesus says there is no way to God except through Him?
When you need help, go into your private room and pray to God (the Father) and no one else. And if you are sincere He will guide you. Seek and you will find — knock and the door will be opened. So instead of pushing knowledge away as the church is famous for, pick up the Quran and ask God in all sincerity to open your heart if it be truth or close your heart to Allah if what you read is falsehood. If you truly want to seek truth.
You come here to attack Christianity, without anything but a bunch of quotes from the Quran and some anecdotes. When you are asked to back up your assertions by accepted secular study, and you cannot do so, you revert to personal attacks and insults. I have no interest in continuing this discussion if you are unable to get beyond that.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com

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Re: For the truth seeker.

#3

Post by Felgar » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:51 am

muhammad wrote:They are not acceptable as sources of truth. If you can prove to me that crusaders are capable of truth then show me that America are not liars.
Well I should point out that your first very long testimony was from an American - a Texan I believe. Is he an American liar then?
muhammad wrote:So instead of pushing knowledge away as the church is famous for, pick up the Quran and ask God in all sincerity to open your heart if it be truth or close your heart to Allah if what you read is falsehood. If you truly want to seek truth.
Well, verses like:
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)
... and ...
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
Seem to me, to be in direct contradiction to:
Galations 5:14
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
... and ...
Matthew 5:44-45 [Jesus speaking, btw]
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
... and ...
1 John 4:15-19
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us.
So then, with the Holy Spirit in me, I trust that God has openned my heart to truth, and my heart tells me that God is a God of love and that I am forgiven - I do not fear for I have been made perfect in love. My heart tells me to love my enemies and to not make war with anyone, esspecialy the Jews. My heart tells me to trust, serve, and love the Lord who has first loved me and is a God of love. That is all I can tell you.

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#4

Post by Prodigal Son » Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:32 am

my heart was closed to the qu'ran because what i read was falsehood.

my mind/heart is open to Jesus, the bible, and the truth.

i have pushed away no knowledge...i was guided, and the door was opened.

...and i am free! :P

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#5

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:12 pm

I feel sorry for Muhammed, if he knows anything about Islam, he knows that going to heaven is not a certainty. Depends on when he dies and how Allah feels (I've asked someone to hunt down the verses, but basically, if Allah is having a bad day, so will you in eternity). Also, the Koran and the Hamad (the other book on or near the same level of the Koran) contradicts the Koran...(spell check!)
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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