Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

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RickD
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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#76

Post by RickD » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:43 pm

Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:51 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:46 pm
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:16 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:15 am
Kenny wrote:
I realize there are some scientists who do believe in God. But that belief is based on faith; not science.
That's just false.

I don't know how or why you'd even make that assertion.
So there are scientists whose belief in God is based on science? Are we talking God's like Hale Selassie; who are born and die on a regular basis? Or like yours creator of the Universe and all that exist? If like yours, which scientific theory includes God?
One specific example I can think of, is Hugh Ross, the astrophysicist. I remember reading something a while back, where he was talking that specifically scientists who study astrophysics, tend to believe in a God who created the universe. And these astrophysicists believe in God, precisely because of the branch of science that they study.
Probably depends on the person. Neil DeGrasse Tyson who is probably the worlds most popular astrophysics sees it differently. Here he explains why the more he looks at the Universe, the less convinced he is of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0nXG02tpDw

Then there is the Pew research center; according to them Physics and Astronomy is about the least likely of scientists to believe in God

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scie ... nd-belief/
So, you realize that your assertion is incorrect?

Regardless of scientists that don't believe in God, there are scientists who do believe in a creator God, because of science. And those believing scientists do believe that belief in God is a rational belief, based on the evidence they see.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#77

Post by Kenny » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:54 pm

Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:51 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:46 pm
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:16 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:15 am

That's just false.

I don't know how or why you'd even make that assertion.
So there are scientists whose belief in God is based on science? Are we talking God's like Hale Selassie; who are born and die on a regular basis? Or like yours creator of the Universe and all that exist? If like yours, which scientific theory includes God?
One specific example I can think of, is Hugh Ross, the astrophysicist. I remember reading something a while back, where he was talking that specifically scientists who study astrophysics, tend to believe in a God who created the universe. And these astrophysicists believe in God, precisely because of the branch of science that they study.
Probably depends on the person. Neil DeGrasse Tyson who is probably the worlds most popular astrophysics sees it differently. Here he explains why the more he looks at the Universe, the less convinced he is of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0nXG02tpDw

Then there is the Pew research center; according to them Physics and Astronomy is about the least likely of scientists to believe in God

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scie ... nd-belief/
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:43 pm
So, you realize that your assertion is incorrect?
My assertion incorrect? I provided a video of the worlds most popular and influential astrophysics refuting your claim, and a link to the Pew research center; one of Americas most trusted fact tank pointing out that astrophysicists are less likely than all the other scientists to believe in God. How does that amount to me realizing my assertion is wrong?
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:43 pm
Regardless of scientists that don't believe in God, there are scientists who do believe in a creator God, because of science. And those believing scientists do believe that belief in God is a rational belief, based on the evidence they see.
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
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"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#78

Post by RickD » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm

Here we go again. Kenny, stay with me. You made an assertion here:
Kenny wrote:
I realize there are some scientists who do believe in God. But that belief is based on faith; not science.
So I gave you a specific example of one such scientist, an astrophysicist, who knows other astrophysicist colleagues, who believe in God because of science(astrophysics).

So I asked you if you realize your assertion is incorrect.
The fact that there's one, or even many scientists who DO NOT believe in God, is irrelevant to your claim that the "some" scientists who believe in God, only believe in God because of faith.

Do you really find it that difficult to believe that some very intelligent scientists actually think that the study of science, points to the existence of God?
Kenny wrote:
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
Is this a serious question? Science is the study of the physical and natural world, through observation and experiment.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#79

Post by Kenny » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:23 pm

RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Here we go again. Kenny, stay with me. You made an assertion here:
Kenny wrote:
I realize there are some scientists who do believe in God. But that belief is based on faith; not science.
So I gave you a specific example of one such scientist, an astrophysicist, who knows other astrophysicist colleagues, who believe in God because of science(astrophysics).

So I asked you if you realize your assertion is incorrect.
The fact that there's one, or even many scientists who DO NOT believe in God, is irrelevant to your claim that the "some" scientists who believe in God, only believe in God because of faith.
Okay; I see where you’re getting at. If this guy claims his study of the physical and material (science) lead to belief in God (the spiritual), I cannot refute his claims. Obviously I’m skeptical of them.
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Do you really find it that difficult to believe that some very intelligent scientists actually think that the study of science, points to the existence of God?
Yes I do find it difficult to believe a study of the physical world will point to the spiritual world.
Kenny wrote:
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Is this a serious question? Science is the study of the physical and natural world, through observation and experiment.
Didn’t you just say this guy claims the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment points to that existence of God? Well certainly, he must have published something on it don’t cha think? After all; that’s what scientists do!
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#80

Post by RickD » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 am

Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:23 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Here we go again. Kenny, stay with me. You made an assertion here:
Kenny wrote:
I realize there are some scientists who do believe in God. But that belief is based on faith; not science.
So I gave you a specific example of one such scientist, an astrophysicist, who knows other astrophysicist colleagues, who believe in God because of science(astrophysics).

So I asked you if you realize your assertion is incorrect.
The fact that there's one, or even many scientists who DO NOT believe in God, is irrelevant to your claim that the "some" scientists who believe in God, only believe in God because of faith.
Okay; I see where you’re getting at. If this guy claims his study of the physical and material (science) lead to belief in God (the spiritual), I cannot refute his claims. Obviously I’m skeptical of them.
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Do you really find it that difficult to believe that some very intelligent scientists actually think that the study of science, points to the existence of God?
Yes I do find it difficult to believe a study of the physical world will point to the spiritual world.
Kenny wrote:
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Is this a serious question? Science is the study of the physical and natural world, through observation and experiment.
Didn’t you just say this guy claims the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment points to that existence of God? Well certainly, he must have published something on it don’t cha think? After all; that’s what scientists do!
Kenny,

My saying that scientists who study in their scientific field, and see that the evidence points to God, is not the same thing as saying that a scientist has a scientific theory based on the existence of God.

Kenny,

I'm beginning to be a little skeptical that you fail to grasp this.
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John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#81

Post by Kenny » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:09 am

RickD wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:23 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Here we go again. Kenny, stay with me. You made an assertion here:
Kenny wrote:
I realize there are some scientists who do believe in God. But that belief is based on faith; not science.
So I gave you a specific example of one such scientist, an astrophysicist, who knows other astrophysicist colleagues, who believe in God because of science(astrophysics).

So I asked you if you realize your assertion is incorrect.
The fact that there's one, or even many scientists who DO NOT believe in God, is irrelevant to your claim that the "some" scientists who believe in God, only believe in God because of faith.
Okay; I see where you’re getting at. If this guy claims his study of the physical and material (science) lead to belief in God (the spiritual), I cannot refute his claims. Obviously I’m skeptical of them.
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Do you really find it that difficult to believe that some very intelligent scientists actually think that the study of science, points to the existence of God?
Yes I do find it difficult to believe a study of the physical world will point to the spiritual world.
Kenny wrote:
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Is this a serious question? Science is the study of the physical and natural world, through observation and experiment.
Didn’t you just say this guy claims the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment points to that existence of God? Well certainly, he must have published something on it don’t cha think? After all; that’s what scientists do!
Kenny,

My saying that scientists who study in their scientific field, and see that the evidence points to God, is not the same thing as saying that a scientist has a scientific theory based on the existence of God.

Kenny,

I'm beginning to be a little skeptical that you fail to grasp this.
When scientists saw evidence pointing to evolution, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence pointing to Cosmic expansion, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence of “planetary motion, relativity, and countless others; they built a theory around it. So if they saw scientific evidence pointing to God, why wouldn't they build a theory around it?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#82

Post by Stu » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:17 am

Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:23 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Here we go again. Kenny, stay with me. You made an assertion here:
Kenny wrote:
I realize there are some scientists who do believe in God. But that belief is based on faith; not science.
So I gave you a specific example of one such scientist, an astrophysicist, who knows other astrophysicist colleagues, who believe in God because of science(astrophysics).

So I asked you if you realize your assertion is incorrect.
The fact that there's one, or even many scientists who DO NOT believe in God, is irrelevant to your claim that the "some" scientists who believe in God, only believe in God because of faith.
Okay; I see where you’re getting at. If this guy claims his study of the physical and material (science) lead to belief in God (the spiritual), I cannot refute his claims. Obviously I’m skeptical of them.
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Do you really find it that difficult to believe that some very intelligent scientists actually think that the study of science, points to the existence of God?
Yes I do find it difficult to believe a study of the physical world will point to the spiritual world.
Kenny wrote:
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Is this a serious question? Science is the study of the physical and natural world, through observation and experiment.
Didn’t you just say this guy claims the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment points to that existence of God? Well certainly, he must have published something on it don’t cha think? After all; that’s what scientists do!
Kenny,

My saying that scientists who study in their scientific field, and see that the evidence points to God, is not the same thing as saying that a scientist has a scientific theory based on the existence of God.

Kenny,

I'm beginning to be a little skeptical that you fail to grasp this.
When scientists saw evidence pointing to evolution, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence pointing to Cosmic expansion, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence of “planetary motion, relativity, and countless others; they built a theory around it. So if they saw scientific evidence pointing to God, why wouldn't they build a theory around it?
Intelligent Design? But that just points to a designer rather than God. For some that designer will be God though.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#83

Post by Byblos » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:02 am

RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:22 pm

I'm sorry Byblos, you lost me. How can matter be both created, and eternal(no beginning)? As I said before, by definition, something created was brought into existence. In other words, it didn't exist, was created, and then it existed.

Maybe matter existed eternally. Maybe it was brought into existence. I don't know either way. But how can it be both?
I'm not saying it's both, although some version of the idea is not foreign to Christianity; in fact it is one of its central tenets, i.e. eternal procession. However, you and I do agree that something does not come from nothing and so do most atheists. But there are some who try to get around that by insisting that matter/energy is eternal, as if somehow that is a counter-answer to God.

So what I am saying Rick is this, if we agree that there is no way to show from reason that time/matter/energy did not exist eternally (and there isn't), and if we keep arguing from creation ex nihilo and they keep insisting on the eternality of matter and energy, the best we can hope for is a stalemate. Well your God is eternal and so is my god. Aquinas saw the futility of such arguments and avoided them like the plague. We should learn something from that.

My position is quite simple, although I vehemently disagree with the premise that matter and energy can be eternal, and even in the off chance that science one day proves it, so friggin what? It does absolutely nothing to the types of arguments the classical philosophers put forth, arguments from final causality, from contingency and necessity, from act and potency, from internal and external explanations, etc, etc. All these arguments are from reason and reason alone (metaphysics) that science not only cannot touch but in fact is totally dependent upon.
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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#84

Post by Kenny » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:40 am

Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:17 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:23 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Here we go again. Kenny, stay with me. You made an assertion here:

So I gave you a specific example of one such scientist, an astrophysicist, who knows other astrophysicist colleagues, who believe in God because of science(astrophysics).

So I asked you if you realize your assertion is incorrect.
The fact that there's one, or even many scientists who DO NOT believe in God, is irrelevant to your claim that the "some" scientists who believe in God, only believe in God because of faith.
Okay; I see where you’re getting at. If this guy claims his study of the physical and material (science) lead to belief in God (the spiritual), I cannot refute his claims. Obviously I’m skeptical of them.
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Do you really find it that difficult to believe that some very intelligent scientists actually think that the study of science, points to the existence of God?
Yes I do find it difficult to believe a study of the physical world will point to the spiritual world.
Kenny wrote:
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Is this a serious question? Science is the study of the physical and natural world, through observation and experiment.
Didn’t you just say this guy claims the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment points to that existence of God? Well certainly, he must have published something on it don’t cha think? After all; that’s what scientists do!
Kenny,

My saying that scientists who study in their scientific field, and see that the evidence points to God, is not the same thing as saying that a scientist has a scientific theory based on the existence of God.

Kenny,

I'm beginning to be a little skeptical that you fail to grasp this.
When scientists saw evidence pointing to evolution, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence pointing to Cosmic expansion, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence of “planetary motion, relativity, and countless others; they built a theory around it. So if they saw scientific evidence pointing to God, why wouldn't they build a theory around it?
Intelligent Design? But that just points to a designer rather than God. For some that designer will be God though.
Okay; if scientific evidence points to an intelligent designer, how come nobody has attempted to make that a scientific theory?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#85

Post by Stu » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:13 am

Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:40 am
Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:17 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:23 pm

Okay; I see where you’re getting at. If this guy claims his study of the physical and material (science) lead to belief in God (the spiritual), I cannot refute his claims. Obviously I’m skeptical of them.

Yes I do find it difficult to believe a study of the physical world will point to the spiritual world.


Didn’t you just say this guy claims the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment points to that existence of God? Well certainly, he must have published something on it don’t cha think? After all; that’s what scientists do!
Kenny,

My saying that scientists who study in their scientific field, and see that the evidence points to God, is not the same thing as saying that a scientist has a scientific theory based on the existence of God.

Kenny,

I'm beginning to be a little skeptical that you fail to grasp this.
When scientists saw evidence pointing to evolution, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence pointing to Cosmic expansion, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence of “planetary motion, relativity, and countless others; they built a theory around it. So if they saw scientific evidence pointing to God, why wouldn't they build a theory around it?
Intelligent Design? But that just points to a designer rather than God. For some that designer will be God though.
Okay; if scientific evidence points to an intelligent designer, how come nobody has attempted to make that a scientific theory?
They have:
https://intelligentdesign.org/faq/

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/sh ... php/id/832
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#86

Post by RickD » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:15 am

Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:23 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Here we go again. Kenny, stay with me. You made an assertion here:
Kenny wrote:
I realize there are some scientists who do believe in God. But that belief is based on faith; not science.
So I gave you a specific example of one such scientist, an astrophysicist, who knows other astrophysicist colleagues, who believe in God because of science(astrophysics).

So I asked you if you realize your assertion is incorrect.
The fact that there's one, or even many scientists who DO NOT believe in God, is irrelevant to your claim that the "some" scientists who believe in God, only believe in God because of faith.
Okay; I see where you’re getting at. If this guy claims his study of the physical and material (science) lead to belief in God (the spiritual), I cannot refute his claims. Obviously I’m skeptical of them.
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Do you really find it that difficult to believe that some very intelligent scientists actually think that the study of science, points to the existence of God?
Yes I do find it difficult to believe a study of the physical world will point to the spiritual world.
Kenny wrote:
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Is this a serious question? Science is the study of the physical and natural world, through observation and experiment.
Didn’t you just say this guy claims the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment points to that existence of God? Well certainly, he must have published something on it don’t cha think? After all; that’s what scientists do!
Kenny,

My saying that scientists who study in their scientific field, and see that the evidence points to God, is not the same thing as saying that a scientist has a scientific theory based on the existence of God.

Kenny,

I'm beginning to be a little skeptical that you fail to grasp this.
When scientists saw evidence pointing to evolution, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence pointing to Cosmic expansion, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence of “planetary motion, relativity, and countless others; they built a theory around it. So if they saw scientific evidence pointing to God, why wouldn't they build a theory around it?
Kenneth,

Again, the definition of science:
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
If science is the means to study the natural world, why on earth would you expect a scientific theory on something not part of the natural world?

Metaphysics is the "tool", used to study something like the existence of God.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#87

Post by RickD » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:22 am

Byblos wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:02 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:22 pm

I'm sorry Byblos, you lost me. How can matter be both created, and eternal(no beginning)? As I said before, by definition, something created was brought into existence. In other words, it didn't exist, was created, and then it existed.

Maybe matter existed eternally. Maybe it was brought into existence. I don't know either way. But how can it be both?
I'm not saying it's both, although some version of the idea is not foreign to Christianity; in fact it is one of its central tenets, i.e. eternal procession. However, you and I do agree that something does not come from nothing and so do most atheists. But there are some who try to get around that by insisting that matter/energy is eternal, as if somehow that is a counter-answer to God.

So what I am saying Rick is this, if we agree that there is no way to show from reason that time/matter/energy did not exist eternally (and there isn't), and if we keep arguing from creation ex nihilo and they keep insisting on the eternality of matter and energy, the best we can hope for is a stalemate. Well your God is eternal and so is my god. Aquinas saw the futility of such arguments and avoided them like the plague. We should learn something from that.

My position is quite simple, although I vehemently disagree with the premise that matter and energy can be eternal, and even in the off chance that science one day proves it, so friggin what? It does absolutely nothing to the types of arguments the classical philosophers put forth, arguments from final causality, from contingency and necessity, from act and potency, from internal and external explanations, etc, etc. All these arguments are from reason and reason alone (metaphysics) that science not only cannot touch but in fact is totally dependent upon.
I don't disagree.

One of the problems that we have here, is that Kenny won't acknowledge metaphysics. It seems to me, that if it can't be measured scientifically, then he believes it doesn't exist. Science is the "tool" for the natural world and metaphysics is the "tool" for something not part of the natural world.

It's kinda like the carpenter who says that since the screw can't be hit with a hammer, he won't use a screwdriver, but will just claim the screw doesn't even exist.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#88

Post by Kenny » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:00 am

RickD wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:15 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:23 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Here we go again. Kenny, stay with me. You made an assertion here:

So I gave you a specific example of one such scientist, an astrophysicist, who knows other astrophysicist colleagues, who believe in God because of science(astrophysics).

So I asked you if you realize your assertion is incorrect.
The fact that there's one, or even many scientists who DO NOT believe in God, is irrelevant to your claim that the "some" scientists who believe in God, only believe in God because of faith.
Okay; I see where you’re getting at. If this guy claims his study of the physical and material (science) lead to belief in God (the spiritual), I cannot refute his claims. Obviously I’m skeptical of them.
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Do you really find it that difficult to believe that some very intelligent scientists actually think that the study of science, points to the existence of God?
Yes I do find it difficult to believe a study of the physical world will point to the spiritual world.
Kenny wrote:
Do you know of any scientific theories based on the existence of God?
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:31 pm
Is this a serious question? Science is the study of the physical and natural world, through observation and experiment.
Didn’t you just say this guy claims the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment points to that existence of God? Well certainly, he must have published something on it don’t cha think? After all; that’s what scientists do!
Kenny,

My saying that scientists who study in their scientific field, and see that the evidence points to God, is not the same thing as saying that a scientist has a scientific theory based on the existence of God.

Kenny,

I'm beginning to be a little skeptical that you fail to grasp this.
When scientists saw evidence pointing to evolution, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence pointing to Cosmic expansion, they built a theory around it. When they saw evidence of “planetary motion, relativity, and countless others; they built a theory around it. So if they saw scientific evidence pointing to God, why wouldn't they build a theory around it?
Kenneth,

Again, the definition of science:
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
If science is the means to study the natural world, why on earth would you expect a scientific theory on something not part of the natural world?
I wouldn’t. But then I wouldn’t expect this “means to study the natural world” (science) to lead to something that is NOT a part of the natural world either! But you said there are those who claim it does
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#89

Post by Philip » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:08 am

Rick: One of the problems that we have here, is that Kenny won't acknowledge metaphysics. It seems to me, that if it can't be measured scientifically, then he believes it doesn't exist. Science is the "tool" for the natural world and metaphysics is the "tool" for something not part of the natural world.
That Ken doesn't realize that whatever science cannot measure - which would be anything before the Big Bang began - IS metaphysics - that is, it's beyond physical measurement and the scope of what the scientific method is equipped to measure and assess. But that's not his greatest problem - which is failure to recognize that the massive complexity, functionalities, interactive synergies, interactivities, intricate designs, and collectively supportive precision of these many things require intelligence, as blind, non-intelligent things could not assemble what we, intelligent and curious beings with great capacity to analyze, plan, learn, create, and investigate can scarcely understand, much less replicate it beyond some simple experiments or tiny components of - and that comes from studying what already exists. It is not reasonable to think all of these many astounding things science ponders could have assembled itself. And that is evident, even from the Big Bangs's beginning minutes!

Also, intelligence cannot be learned! Intelligence is "the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills." So, either a thing already has this intelligence and ability or it does not. Without an already existing intelligence, NO first thing could have begun creating or designing ANYTHING else. Blind, non-intelligent things cannot learn, because they don't have this ability. And that ability cannot evolve. Only an already intelligent thing can use that intelligence to build knowledge and skills.

Lastly, beyond all of the massive complexity requiring intelligence, the universe required that A) things came into existence and B) that those things were the very ones necessary to creating a universe that instantly begin changing evermore progressively with precision and purpose to eventually support life on earth. And C) the components alone did not create the first life - once again, this took intelligence. And that first simple cellular life - it was MASSIVELY complex!

Consider what molecular biologist Michael Behe has said about a single cell:

“To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity.”

“Molecular biology has shown that even the simplest of all living systems on the earth today, bacterial cells, are exceedingly complex objects. Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred-thousand-million atoms, far more complicated than any machine built by man and absolutely without parallel in the nonliving world.” 

Now, noting its complexity (above), to believe the first cell could have assembled itself is simply not rational! Not to mention, it was completely dependent upon the incredible designs and complexities that appeared within mere minutes of the Big Bang's beginning. There is NO science that explains any of this - beyond basic understandings of WHAT happened - but not WHY it happened (the far bigger question!).

To summarize, Ken must believe in magic, if he thinks non-intelligent things could create, design, and coordinate the massive complexity of the early and present universe, or produce life, millions of species, etc. - in which there is only one creature like us, with our intelligence and capacity. And when one applies mathematical probabilities to these many massively complex things individually coming into existence AND their collective assemblage and coordination - with ALL of its building blocks coming into existence withing mere minutes - well, there's just no reasonable logic to believe there was no powerful Super Intelligence responsible for it all!

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Re: Is Christianity and Belief in God RATIONAL?

#90

Post by Byblos » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:57 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:22 am
Byblos wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:02 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:22 pm

I'm sorry Byblos, you lost me. How can matter be both created, and eternal(no beginning)? As I said before, by definition, something created was brought into existence. In other words, it didn't exist, was created, and then it existed.

Maybe matter existed eternally. Maybe it was brought into existence. I don't know either way. But how can it be both?
I'm not saying it's both, although some version of the idea is not foreign to Christianity; in fact it is one of its central tenets, i.e. eternal procession. However, you and I do agree that something does not come from nothing and so do most atheists. But there are some who try to get around that by insisting that matter/energy is eternal, as if somehow that is a counter-answer to God.

So what I am saying Rick is this, if we agree that there is no way to show from reason that time/matter/energy did not exist eternally (and there isn't), and if we keep arguing from creation ex nihilo and they keep insisting on the eternality of matter and energy, the best we can hope for is a stalemate. Well your God is eternal and so is my god. Aquinas saw the futility of such arguments and avoided them like the plague. We should learn something from that.

My position is quite simple, although I vehemently disagree with the premise that matter and energy can be eternal, and even in the off chance that science one day proves it, so friggin what? It does absolutely nothing to the types of arguments the classical philosophers put forth, arguments from final causality, from contingency and necessity, from act and potency, from internal and external explanations, etc, etc. All these arguments are from reason and reason alone (metaphysics) that science not only cannot touch but in fact is totally dependent upon.
I don't disagree.

One of the problems that we have here, is that Kenny won't acknowledge metaphysics. It seems to me, that if it can't be measured scientifically, then he believes it doesn't exist. Science is the "tool" for the natural world and metaphysics is the "tool" for something not part of the natural world.

It's kinda like the carpenter who says that since the screw can't be hit with a hammer, he won't use a screwdriver, but will just claim the screw doesn't even exist.
Which is exactly why I try to avoid such discussions based on temporal series, they are meaningless. They want to insist on eternal matter/energy then have it. They will still end up with either brute force or no explanation, i.e. a worldview based entirely on irrationality.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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