Morality

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
Kenny
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Re: Morality

#316

Post by Kenny » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:58 am

B. W. wrote:
B.W. wrote:Whoops sorry Ken... I accidentally selected the Edited button instead of selecting the Quote button and erased your response to K
B.W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:...If Sin is transgression against the law of God, unless the existence of God can be proven, the existence of sin cannot be either.... Earth has a physical existence thus can be proven; morality does not, thus cannot...

The existence of sin cannot be proved :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound:

Are you serious???

Ted Bundy, Adolph Coors III, and Harris and Klebold-Columbine ....

So are these folks are saints and innocent?

https://list25.com/25-most-evil-serial- ... h-century/

Top one from above link quoted below -- Pedro Alonso Lopez

Pedro Alonso López is a Colombian serial killer, accused of raping and killing more than 300 girls across South America. He lured them to secluded areas or inside unoccupied buildings where he raped each of them before killing them by a range of brutal methods, primarily strangulation. López was arrested when an attempted abduction failed and he was trapped by market traders. He confessed to over 300 murders but the police only believed him when a flash flood uncovered a mass grave containing many of his victims. Eventually 53 bodies were discovered. Imprisoned in 1980 he served 18 years before being released from a Ecuadorian prison and was deported to Columbia where he was rearrested and in 2002 was sentenced to life.25 Of The Most Evil Serial Killers You Have Ever Known - by Juan Castillo, Updated on June 28, 2017

Morality has no physical existence - then please tell that to the victims families...please Ken...-
Just think if there is no morality, then I did nothing wrong :lol:

Anyway sorry about that anyways...
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-
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As I've constantly said, morality only exist in your thoughts; they don't have a physical existence. Now just because they exist in thoughts, this doesn't prevent people from acting on those thoughts and making those moral actions a reality.
RickD wrote
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Morality

#317

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:22 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:lol !
really wrong VS wrong !

Classic.
I am not defining the difference Ken, YOU ARE.
You are the one claiming subjectivity.
My view is they are the same; both subjective judgments we make about human actions we experience.
So, your view is that WHAT is good is subjective and that there is such a thing as good, is also subjective?
Id that correct?

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Re: Morality

#318

Post by B. W. » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:34 am

Kenny wrote:
B.W. wrote:Whoops sorry Ken... I accidentally selected the Edited button instead of selecting the Quote button and erased your response to K
B.W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:...If Sin is transgression against the law of God, unless the existence of God can be proven, the existence of sin cannot be either.... Earth has a physical existence thus can be proven; morality does not, thus cannot...

The existence of sin cannot be proved :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound:

Are you serious???

Ted Bundy, Adolph Coors III, and Harris and Klebold-Columbine ....

So are these folks are saints and innocent?

https://list25.com/25-most-evil-serial- ... h-century/
Sounds like you are confusing "Evil" with "Sin". You do know the difference do you?
B.W. wrote: Top one from above link quoted below -- Pedro Alonso Lopez

Pedro Alonso López is a Colombian serial killer, accused of raping and killing more than 300 girls across South America. He lured them to secluded areas or inside unoccupied buildings where he raped each of them before killing them by a range of brutal methods, primarily strangulation. López was arrested when an attempted abduction failed and he was trapped by market traders. He confessed to over 300 murders but the police only believed him when a flash flood uncovered a mass grave containing many of his victims. Eventually 53 bodies were discovered. Imprisoned in 1980 he served 18 years before being released from a Ecuadorian prison and was deported to Columbia where he was rearrested and in 2002 was sentenced to life.25 Of The Most Evil Serial Killers You Have Ever Known - by Juan Castillo, Updated on June 28, 2017

Morality has no physical existence - then please tell that to the victims families...please Ken...
1-Sounds like you are confusing "Evil" with "Sin". You do know the difference do you?

2-Are you under the impression morality has a physical existence?

3-As I've constantly said, morality only exist in your thoughts; they don't have a physical existence. Now just because they exist in thoughts, this doesn't prevent people from acting on those thoughts and making those moral actions a reality.

Ken
Kenny wrote:1... confusing "Evil" with "Sin". You do know the difference do you?
James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sin defined from Thayer's Dictionary of NT Words

ἁμαρτία - hamartia

Definition:
1) equivalent to Strong's #264
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

How would anyone know what sin is that produces death, physical death,spiritual death, relationship death, depressional death, mental death, etc and etc unless God defined what sin is first midst folks like yourself who live sunjectively doing whatever you please, lying, cheating, seeking to destroy peoples lives - all justified by what you physically think... as right>

Kenny wrote:2-...morality has a physical existence?
People lost in sin can kill you, rob, you, destroy you so yes morality has physical existence outside ourselves. We need intervention from our creator to help us shed subjective morals that we kill ourselves with.

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me... 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
Exo 20:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exo 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder (OT word meaning is premeditated murder for sport and pleasure and fulfillment of lust)
Exo 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 "You shall not steal.
Exo 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Now, realistically, why would human beings say adultery is wrong and lying is wrong when doing these feel so subjective good and all the time justified as good to do?
Kenny wrote:3-As I've constantly said, morality only exist in your thoughts; they don't have a physical existence. Now just because they exist in thoughts, this doesn't prevent people from acting on those thoughts and making those moral actions a reality.
Do you realize that you just contradicted yourself? Are you a physical being or an illusion?

People make there own subjective morals to justify their actions. Human beings are sexual stimulated and justify adultery, fornication, sexual perversions, as okay and right and in no way want a morality that says - do not commit adultery or even murder... or even honoring one's parents ... because old people are a drain on the state and families so just kill them off.

People justify stealing - defrauding - or bearing false witness - character assassination... they would never say these are wrong... because the ends justify the means for revenge...or self gain .. or materialism...

They would never write such things, How do I know, because you would never write these with your nihilist point of view.

Fact is, you will die Ken, mentioned this before, and you will stand before God and give an account for your life - you own subjective morality. Jesus came to save the lost and restore us back to God's plan for humanity. He offers choice - in this God is Just. You cannot find fault in that can you - allowing people to decide what they want to do even if it produces death. Ken you admitted long while back how you rejected people, lied, stole, abandoned, neglected - etc- people.

How did you justify this - you think you will not be held to account?

Again you err. You have another god before your created in your own image and likeness and that god is yourself.You serve this god of self and justify doing it and demand all bow and worship your god of self. You will die and you can be forgiven of these things and you do know how by now...

You are not god. you are not wise. your morality is flawed and leads to death in so many ways in relationships all the way till the day you cease breathing and enter into eternal judgment. You bring death and by your writings it fits the category of subjective morality premeditated murder of ideas, hopes, dreams, etc and etc. You are guilty of sin and it leads to such death. Jesus paid the price to escape this death and you do know how that is.

God created, we live in that creation, this creation is no accident, it is too mathematically precise to be an accident, the odds are against an random accident. All creation points to a just creator who lets people make their own choices and then provides a way back, by choice, to be free from sin and death we made on this earth as evidenced empirically by how we think, reason, and lived our lives...

Have a nice day and return to Jesus before it is too late.
-
-
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

Kenny
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Re: Morality

#319

Post by Kenny » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:33 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:lol !
really wrong VS wrong !

Classic.
I am not defining the difference Ken, YOU ARE.
You are the one claiming subjectivity.
My view is they are the same; both subjective judgments we make about human actions we experience.
So, your view is that WHAT is good is subjective and that there is such a thing as good, is also subjective?
Id that correct?
*What is Good? What we call “good” is a judgment we make concerning the actions we experience. These judgments are subjective.

*Is there such a thing as “good”? These judgments (whether we label them good, bad, or something else) are just thoughts. Thoughts only exist in our heads; they don’t have a physical existence, they only exist in the context of human thought.
Hope that clears things up.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Morality

#320

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:12 pm

The issue I see is that if there is no "good", then there can be no "what is good"? ( since you don't have an objective to be subjective about, like pain for example).
So, there is no good,period and by default no wrong or bad, so there is, by default, no such a thing as human rights for example, you agree?

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Re: Morality

#321

Post by Kenny » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:12 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue I see is that if there is no "good", then there can be no "what is good"? ( since you don't have an objective to be subjective about, like pain for example).
So, there is no good,period and by default no wrong or bad,
If “good” is a series of thoughts, thoughts are real to the person who has them, they just aren’t real to everyone else. Thoughts don’t have a physical existence
PaulSacramento wrote: so there is, by default, no such a thing as human rights for example, you agree?
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

Kenny
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Re: Morality

#322

Post by Kenny » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:39 pm

Kenny wrote:
B.W. wrote:Whoops sorry Ken... I accidentally selected the Edited button instead of selecting the Quote button and erased your response to K
B.W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:...If Sin is transgression against the law of God, unless the existence of God can be proven, the existence of sin cannot be either.... Earth has a physical existence thus can be proven; morality does not, thus cannot...

The existence of sin cannot be proved :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound:

Are you serious???

Ted Bundy, Adolph Coors III, and Harris and Klebold-Columbine ....

So are these folks are saints and innocent?

https://list25.com/25-most-evil-serial- ... h-century/
Sounds like you are confusing "Evil" with "Sin". You do know the difference do you?
B.W. wrote: Top one from above link quoted below -- Pedro Alonso Lopez

Pedro Alonso López is a Colombian serial killer, accused of raping and killing more than 300 girls across South America. He lured them to secluded areas or inside unoccupied buildings where he raped each of them before killing them by a range of brutal methods, primarily strangulation. López was arrested when an attempted abduction failed and he was trapped by market traders. He confessed to over 300 murders but the police only believed him when a flash flood uncovered a mass grave containing many of his victims. Eventually 53 bodies were discovered. Imprisoned in 1980 he served 18 years before being released from a Ecuadorian prison and was deported to Columbia where he was rearrested and in 2002 was sentenced to life.25 Of The Most Evil Serial Killers You Have Ever Known - by Juan Castillo, Updated on June 28, 2017

Morality has no physical existence - then please tell that to the victims families...please Ken...
1-Sounds like you are confusing "Evil" with "Sin". You do know the difference do you?

2-Are you under the impression morality has a physical existence?

3-As I've constantly said, morality only exist in your thoughts; they don't have a physical existence. Now just because they exist in thoughts, this doesn't prevent people from acting on those thoughts and making those moral actions a reality.

Ken
Kenny wrote:1... confusing "Evil" with "Sin". You do know the difference do you?
B. W. wrote:James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sin defined from Thayer's Dictionary of NT Words

ἁμαρτία - hamartia

Definition:
1) equivalent to Strong's #264
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

How would anyone know what sin is that produces death, physical death,spiritual death, relationship death, depressional death, mental death, etc and etc unless God defined what sin is first midst folks like yourself who live sunjectively doing whatever you please, lying, cheating, seeking to destroy peoples lives - all justified by what you physically think... as right>
The difference is; Evil is people saying something is wrong. Sin is God saying something is wrong. Often they are the same, but not always.
Kenny wrote:2-...morality has a physical existence?
B. W. wrote:People lost in sin can kill you, rob, you, destroy you so yes morality has physical existence outside ourselves. We need intervention from our creator to help us shed subjective morals that we kill ourselves with.

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me... 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
Exo 20:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exo 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder (OT word meaning is premeditated murder for sport and pleasure and fulfillment of lust)
Exo 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 "You shall not steal.
Exo 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Now, realistically, why would human beings say adultery is wrong and lying is wrong when doing these feel so subjective good and all the time justified as good to do?
You are describing actions; not morality. Again morality doesn’t have a physical existence. If you disagree, show me where it exist.
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"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Morality

#323

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:54 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:The issue I see is that if there is no "good", then there can be no "what is good"? ( since you don't have an objective to be subjective about, like pain for example).
So, there is no good,period and by default no wrong or bad,
If “good” is a series of thoughts, thoughts are real to the person who has them, they just aren’t real to everyone else. Thoughts don’t have a physical existence
PaulSacramento wrote: so there is, by default, no such a thing as human rights for example, you agree?
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
You do realize that if good is subjective then so are the "laws of the land" since they are based on what is good.

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Re: Morality

#324

Post by RickD » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:29 am

kenny wrote:
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
How are laws of the land objective? What makes them objective?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Kenny
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Re: Morality

#325

Post by Kenny » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:36 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:The issue I see is that if there is no "good", then there can be no "what is good"? ( since you don't have an objective to be subjective about, like pain for example).
So, there is no good,period and by default no wrong or bad,
If “good” is a series of thoughts, thoughts are real to the person who has them, they just aren’t real to everyone else. Thoughts don’t have a physical existence
PaulSacramento wrote: so there is, by default, no such a thing as human rights for example, you agree?
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
You do realize that if good is subjective then so are the "laws of the land" since they are based on what is good.
No, laws of the land are voted on based on what the majority of law makers’ subjectively deem fair. This is different than what you or I may consider “good”.

K
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Morality

#326

Post by Kenny » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:37 am

RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
How are laws of the land objective? What makes them objective?
Laws state what is legal and what is not legal. If the law says “X” is legal, it doesn’t matter if you or I agree it is still legal. It can be demonstrated/proven as legal by reading details of the specific law in question
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Morality

#327

Post by RickD » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:08 am

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
How are laws of the land objective? What makes them objective?
Laws state what is legal and what is not legal. If the law says “X” is legal, it doesn’t matter if you or I agree it is still legal. It can be demonstrated/proven as legal by reading details of the specific law in question
I asked what makes them objective. You didn't answer that. Legality does not equal objective.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Morality

#328

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:41 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:The issue I see is that if there is no "good", then there can be no "what is good"? ( since you don't have an objective to be subjective about, like pain for example).
So, there is no good,period and by default no wrong or bad,
If “good” is a series of thoughts, thoughts are real to the person who has them, they just aren’t real to everyone else. Thoughts don’t have a physical existence
PaulSacramento wrote: so there is, by default, no such a thing as human rights for example, you agree?
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
You do realize that if good is subjective then so are the "laws of the land" since they are based on what is good.
No, laws of the land are voted on based on what the majority of law makers’ subjectively deem fair. This is different than what you or I may consider “good”.

K
But Ken, good IS subjective so regardless of the majority rule, the laws, which is based on what the majority subjectively decide is good ( which is already subjective), must therefore be SUBJECTIVE and not objective.
Because while you can get subjective ( what is) form Objective ( That is) you can NOT get objective from subjective.
It quite simply is not logical and rational.

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Re: Morality

#329

Post by Kenny » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:45 pm

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
How are laws of the land objective? What makes them objective?
Laws state what is legal and what is not legal. If the law says “X” is legal, it doesn’t matter if you or I agree it is still legal. It can be demonstrated/proven as legal by reading details of the specific law in question
I asked what makes them objective. You didn't answer that. Legality does not equal objective.
Of coarse it does.

http://www.differencebetween.net/langua ... ubjective/

Laws are written down. As the above definition alludes, you can verify the facts concerning a law by looking them up. This makes laws objective.
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Re: Morality

#330

Post by Kenny » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:48 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:The issue I see is that if there is no "good", then there can be no "what is good"? ( since you don't have an objective to be subjective about, like pain for example).
So, there is no good,period and by default no wrong or bad,
If “good” is a series of thoughts, thoughts are real to the person who has them, they just aren’t real to everyone else. Thoughts don’t have a physical existence
PaulSacramento wrote: so there is, by default, no such a thing as human rights for example, you agree?
Human rights are laws of the land. Laws of the land are objective
You do realize that if good is subjective then so are the "laws of the land" since they are based on what is good.
No, laws of the land are voted on based on what the majority of law makers’ subjectively deem fair. This is different than what you or I may consider “good”.

K
But Ken, good IS subjective so regardless of the majority rule, the laws, which is based on what the majority subjectively decide is good ( which is already subjective), must therefore be SUBJECTIVE and not objective.
Because while you can get subjective ( what is) form Objective ( That is) you can NOT get objective from subjective.
It quite simply is not logical and rational.
I disagree! Subjective beliefs and ideas result in objective laws all the time! A group of people will come together bringing their various subjective views and opinions and agree on a single objective idea; usually by compromising a little on their subjective ideas for the greater good of creating something objective that can be agreed upon by all, and enforced. This is how laws are made in a democracy.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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