The Delusion of "Free Will"

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 20842
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 1032 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#76

Post by RickD » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:16 pm

Audacity,

I'm going to go way out on a limb, and guess that you don't have any children. Am I correct?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3300
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 550 times
Been liked: 297 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#77

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:32 pm

RickD wrote:Audacity,

I'm going to go way out on a limb, and guess that you don't have any children. Am I correct?
Now that would be interesting....

'Daddy, doesn't believe in discipline since he knows I have no choice...'

:shakehead:

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 20842
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 1032 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#78

Post by RickD » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:56 pm

Nessa wrote:
RickD wrote:Audacity,

I'm going to go way out on a limb, and guess that you don't have any children. Am I correct?
Now that would be interesting....

'Daddy, doesn't believe in discipline since he knows I have no choice...'

:shakehead:
That too. But what I was thinking about, was trying to instill a sense of responsibility in our children. We try to explain to them that there are always consequences to the choices we make. We make good choices, the consequences are usually good. We make bad choices, the consequences can be bad.

How does someone raise a child without instilling a sense of responsibility?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3300
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 550 times
Been liked: 297 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#79

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:02 pm

RickD wrote:
Nessa wrote:
RickD wrote:Audacity,

I'm going to go way out on a limb, and guess that you don't have any children. Am I correct?
Now that would be interesting....

'Daddy, doesn't believe in discipline since he knows I have no choice...'

:shakehead:
That too. But what I was thinking about, was trying to instill a sense of responsibility in our children. We try to explain to them that there are always consequences to the choices we make. We make good choices, the consequences are usually good. We make bad choices, the consequences can be bad.

How does someone raise a child without instilling a sense of responsibility?
No, Rick... Are you being purposely obtuse like Audie says? y:-?

It's the mysterious 'cause' that is causing you to waste time by explaining to them things that don't matter because they are going to do what the 'cause' makes them do.

Be a smart boy and save your time...eat another sammich....

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 20842
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 1032 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#80

Post by RickD » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:08 pm

Nessa wrote:
RickD wrote:
Nessa wrote:
RickD wrote:Audacity,

I'm going to go way out on a limb, and guess that you don't have any children. Am I correct?
Now that would be interesting....

'Daddy, doesn't believe in discipline since he knows I have no choice...'

:shakehead:
That too. But what I was thinking about, was trying to instill a sense of responsibility in our children. We try to explain to them that there are always consequences to the choices we make. We make good choices, the consequences are usually good. We make bad choices, the consequences can be bad.

How does someone raise a child without instilling a sense of responsibility?
No, Rick... Are you being purposely obtuse like Audie says? y:-?

It's the mysterious 'cause' that is causing you to waste time by explaining to them things that don't matter because they are going to do what the 'cause' makes them do.

Be a smart boy and save your time...eat another sammich....
I was going to thank you for the good advice, but then I realized that you had no choice in saying that. You had to say it, so no thanks will be given.

And before you call me rude for not saying thank you, I had no choice in the matter. It was determined by some cause outside my control. Oh wait..."my control" is just an illusion...
These users liked this post by RickD (total 2):
Nessa (Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:59 pm) • Nicki (Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:04 pm)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3300
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 550 times
Been liked: 297 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#81

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:01 pm

We shouldn't say "May the force be with you"

We should say "May the cause be with you"

If what Audacity is saying is true, we should be bowing down to this cause that can and does create anything by forcing humans to submit to it and become mindless puppets

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#82

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:38 pm

You shouldn't should or shouldn't say anything, since "should" is meaningless. You just did or didn't because the forces that control you.

In fact, there's not even a you to be controlled, nor can what he says be true or false, since there can be no reasons for anything including his own position.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
Audacity
BANNED
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:49 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 16 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#83

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:44 pm

RickD wrote:Audacity,

I'm going to go way out on a limb, and guess that you don't have any children. Am I correct?
Three, in fact. Two of one and one the other.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 20842
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 1032 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#84

Post by RickD » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:53 pm

Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:Audacity,

I'm going to go way out on a limb, and guess that you don't have any children. Am I correct?
Three, in fact. Two of one and one the other.
And what do you do to teach them how to be responsible for the choices they make?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3300
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 550 times
Been liked: 297 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#85

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:53 pm

Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:Audacity,

I'm going to go way out on a limb, and guess that you don't have any children. Am I correct?
Three, in fact. Two of one and one the other.
You hold your cards pretty close to your chest..

Ages?

User avatar
Audacity
BANNED
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:49 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 16 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#86

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:57 pm

RickD wrote:And what do you do to teach them how to be responsible for the choices they make?
They all became adults before I concluded that free will is an illusion, and unfortunately none have any interest in philosophy. However, your question is an interesting one. I can only say that despite the fact that free will is illusory I, like everyone else, go through my day-to-day life as if it wasn't---I can't help it. :mrgreen: And recognizing that the illusion is the modus operandi we've all been beset with I have no reason to try to persuade them any differently. It would be difficult and do them no good. So, live and let live, as it were.

Nessa wrote:You hold your cards pretty close to your chest..

Ages?
Yes, all three of them, two women and a man, have ages. ;)

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3583
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 71 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#87

Post by Kenny » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:08 pm

Opps
Last edited by Kenny on Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3583
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 71 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#88

Post by Kenny » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:09 pm

Audacity wrote:
Kenny wrote: If the action originated from my mind, it didn’t come from anywhere else. I was born with a brain and I evolved to become what I currently am; a person capable of original thought, and the ability to act on my own without any outside influence; thus free will.
Ken
I can't pretend to know how the brain (mind) develops or necessarily operates other than to say there's a whole lot of "because of this, then this" going on. All of which "began" as a zygote that led to an enormous amount of causes effects, which inevitably ended up in a person having to do "this" rather than "something else." It's all connected, and all dependent on causes and effects. In fact, as may be apparent, everything that happens, no matter where or what shape it takes, physical or mental, is driven by cause. Causes that are inevitable generators of their particular effects.
But if all those causes that originated from the Zygote (as you call it) originated within the person carrying out the action, seems to me this dispels your claim of no free will.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3300
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 550 times
Been liked: 297 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#89

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:37 pm

Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:And what do you do to teach them how to be responsible for the choices they make?
They all became adults before I concluded that free will is an illusion, and unfortunately none have any interest in philosophy. However, your question is an interesting one. I can only say that despite the fact that free will is illusory I, like everyone else, go through my day-to-day life as if it wasn't---I can't help it. :mrgreen: And recognizing that the illusion is the modus operandi we've all been beset with I have no reason to try to persuade them any differently. It would be difficult and do them no good. So, live and let live, as it were.

Nessa wrote:You hold your cards pretty close to your chest..

Ages?
Yes, all three of them, two women and a man, have ages. ;)
:lol:

You said that while your kids were children that you believed in freewill.

So what changed? Why do you now consider free will just an illusion?

And why would we be so "programmed" to believe in free will to the point that we can't just help it even if we 'know" it's not true?

Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8003
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 366 times
Been liked: 602 times

Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#90

Post by Philip » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:55 pm

Audacity: The hows and particulars of the cause/effect chain are typically unknown and even unknowable.

Philip: And so you know this is unknowable HOW? y:-?
Audacity: The demonstrated limited ability of the human brain.
Er, so you figured out that the cause/effect chain is typically unknown or unknowable via YOUR limited human brain? y:O2 Wow, that's something I have high confidence in.
Audacity: So it is highly unlikely anyone could point them out.
Or perhaps LIKELY, eh - given our limited human brains? :lol:
Audacity: Responsibility in which it's reasonable to assign praise or blame, nope. However, whether or not any of it matters to anyone would be pure speculation. I simply don't know who it matters to and does not matter to.
Let me guess - if for no particular reason, I suddenly smacked you upside your head, I'm pretty sure it would matter to you, and that you would blame me in anger, right?
Audacity: Yet, because the human mind is caught in the illusion of free will it will readily assign such responsibility and praise and blame various acts.
So, to you - and everyone - whether free will is an illusion or not - the perception matters AND you and everyone else reacts as if it exists. So, does the so-called "illusion" even matter? Because the world functions as if everyone on the planet believes in free will - well, except for a certain brand of Calvinists. :pound:
Audacity: Honestly, you sound like you're afraid of the fact that free will doesn't exist, particularly in light of your conclusion that it's an irrelevant opinion.
Why would I be afraid of someone's opinion that has no factual basis, particularly one who believes our human brains are so "limited," that we cannot see that free will "doesn't" truly exist. But YOURS is apparently unlimited enough to know this is an illusion? What, are you some special human that has these brilliant insights? Guess what - perhaps, just maybe, your limited human brain has it wrong. Ah, but if that is the case, you'll never know it, right? And after pissing enough people off and repeatedly getting clobbered for it, you might just start to think that you might aught reconsider your assertion belief about free will. What is it they say, perception may not be reality, but for the person perceiving it, it becomes THEIR reality - whatever UNreality it might be.

Anyway, there's a fellow on here who just loves cake - he's really gonna love you! :fruitcake: Because something tells me the supply is going to be unlimited. :D

Post Reply