The Delusion of "Free Will"

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
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RickD
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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#16

Post by RickD » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:25 am

Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
"Free will is the ability to choose betwixt ... choices." Yes it is, which is why it's a bogus concept.

In truth, we don't choose anything at all. Choosing is an illusion we have come to incorporate in our lives so as to retain a sense of unique personal agency. It's the notion that "I could have done differently had I wanted to." Trouble is, you did what you did because you could do no differently. That this may throw a monkey wrench into the notion of culpability, both good and bad, is too bad, but that's the way the universe works. Want to call the good stuff people do admirable, heroic, praiseworthy, etc., and the bad stuff, deplorable, wicked, sinful, etc. go ahead, but when it gets down to the sum and substance of the matter they're all based on the mistaken notion that people choose to do what they do. That they could have done differently had they wanted to. But they couldn't have. They had to do what they did.
So, when Mr. Dranktoomuch gets in a car and crashes into a van full of daycare children and kills them all, you're saying he had no choice whether he should drive, or call a taxi?
BINGO!

Actually, it would be better put by saying that choosing never entered into the picture: He had to drive.


.

So, you're saying that a choice, an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities, doesn't exist?
Yes.
You've been away from this forum, on sabbatical since March, and this is what you've learned?
y:O2
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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#17

Post by Audacity » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:40 am

RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote: So, when Mr. Dranktoomuch gets in a car and crashes into a van full of daycare children and kills them all, you're saying he had no choice whether he should drive, or call a taxi?
BINGO!

Actually, it would be better put by saying that choosing never entered into the picture: He had to drive.


.

So, you're saying that a choice, an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities, doesn't exist?
Yes.
You've been away from this forum, on sabbatical since March, and this is what you've learned?
y:O2
Actually, it's something I've been aware of for some time. And other than being distasteful to the point of unacceptability, just what problem do you have with the fact that free will is an illusion?


.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#18

Post by RickD » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:19 am

Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote: BINGO!

Actually, it would be better put by saying that choosing never entered into the picture: He had to drive.


.

So, you're saying that a choice, an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities, doesn't exist?
Yes.
You've been away from this forum, on sabbatical since March, and this is what you've learned?
y:O2
Actually, it's something I've been aware of for some time. And other than being distasteful to the point of unacceptability, just what problem do you have with the fact that free will is an illusion?


.
I choose not to answer that. ;)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#19

Post by Audacity » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:34 am

RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:

So, you're saying that a choice, an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities, doesn't exist?
Yes.
You've been away from this forum, on sabbatical since March, and this is what you've learned?
y:O2
Actually, it's something I've been aware of for some time. And other than being distasteful to the point of unacceptability, just what problem do you have with the fact that free will is an illusion?


.
I choose not to answer that. ;)
Ah yes, you had no choice but to think so ;)

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#20

Post by RickD » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:50 pm

Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote: Yes.
You've been away from this forum, on sabbatical since March, and this is what you've learned?
y:O2
Actually, it's something I've been aware of for some time. And other than being distasteful to the point of unacceptability, just what problem do you have with the fact that free will is an illusion?


.
I choose not to answer that. ;)
Ah yes, you had no choice but to think so ;)
"The fact that free will is an illusion?"
Since when is free will being an illusion, a fact? And, did you decide that it's a fact?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#21

Post by Audacity » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:49 pm

RickD wrote: "The fact that free will is an illusion?"
Since when is free will being an illusion, a fact?
Just like the fact of evolution, from the very beginning.
And, did you decide that it's a fact?
No more so than anyone decided that gravity is a fact. It's more of a recognition that it's a fact. Thing is, if you consider free will to be the ability to have done differently (a common definition of FW) then one is faced with showing how such a thing could have happened. How could you have chosen B instead of having chosen A? I underlined "have" because it points to the operation in question: the deciding mechanism that would run the "choosing." You chose A instead of B because __________________fill in (explain) the operation_______________.

.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#22

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:19 pm

And that's why non-philosophers have no business doing philosophy. It is simply not true that before you can acknowledge an effect you must first explain the cause, because then you would create an infinite regression of explanations of causes. Take evolution, since Audie raised that herself. We don't understand how abiogenesis works, nor do we have to. Medicine works this way. We don't have to understand the mechanism for why some particular drug works--very often we don't. We just observe the effect. That's even MORE common in sciences like psychology and economics.

The other problem is that Audie is begging the question. She starts with a particular assumption about human nature (or, more specifically, about the lack there of), and uses that as the basis for which to conclude there is no free will. And then she challenges others to provide an explanation without a framework that has already denied the explanation. She's asking us to spell "cat" without using letters.

There are other problems, like proposing the wrong definition of free will and her incorrect usage/understanding of modal language.

Bottom line: it is just not a fact that there is no such thing as free will. That is just a bad and unwarranted philosophical position. It's shallow and rooted in a Newtonian, and thus discredited, view of the world. It is, in a word, a childish position. And it's one she doesn't even consistently hold. She expects people to "not lie" about her, to take but one instance. She has moral and cultural expectations. Moreover, the whole idea of there being "facts" in her worldview is plainly stupid, because if she is only thinking as she is forced to by blind chemical reactions, then those thought processes necessarily have no relation to truth. There is no such thing at all as a fact. So her entire argument is self-defeating, because reason doesn't exist at all. Therefore, any argument she puts forward in defense of her own position--including the sad attempt at one in the post just above--is self refuting, because it makes use of the very thing her position says doesn't exist.

In a word, it's a lazy position. No one should take it seriously. It's about as credible as gapism. As she likes to say, kites and sewers. And if that's where her kite is, then really nothing she says on any subject whatsoever has any credibility. So ignore it.
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Hortator (Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:20 pm)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#23

Post by Kurieuo » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:32 pm

Audacity has no choice (no pun intended), he's just remaining logically consistent with his view of the world. If Physicalism is true, there is no free will. While our closest intuitions might say otherwise, that we have any choice is at best a mirage. I'll go with my intuition here though, and say Physicalism is wrong.

People do have responsibilities, and are responsible for their actions. Love does exist, and we can love others. Justice really does exist, and those who are imprisoned for a crime are responsible for their actions (not merely a victim of their chemistry).
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#24

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:12 pm

Noting that I accidentally attributed the stupidity of denying free will to Audie when Audicity is the offender. My apologies, sincerely, Audie for implying you would say something so downright dumb.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#25

Post by Audacity » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:53 am

Jac3510 wrote:And that's why non-philosophers have no business doing philosophy. It is simply not true that before you can acknowledge an effect you must first explain the cause, because then you would create an infinite regression of explanations of causes. Take evolution, since Audie raised that herself. We don't understand how abiogenesis works, nor do we have to. Medicine works this way. We don't have to understand the mechanism for why some particular drug works--very often we don't. We just observe the effect. That's even MORE common in sciences like psychology and economics.

The other problem is that Audie is begging the question. She starts with a particular assumption about human nature (or, more specifically, about the lack there of), and uses that as the basis for which to conclude there is no free will. And then she challenges others to provide an explanation without a framework that has already denied the explanation. She's asking us to spell "cat" without using letters.

There are other problems, like proposing the wrong definition of free will and her incorrect usage/understanding of modal language.

Bottom line: it is just not a fact that there is no such thing as free will. That is just a bad and unwarranted philosophical position. It's shallow and rooted in a Newtonian, and thus discredited, view of the world. It is, in a word, a childish position. And it's one she doesn't even consistently hold. She expects people to "not lie" about her, to take but one instance. She has moral and cultural expectations. Moreover, the whole idea of there being "facts" in her worldview is plainly stupid, because if she is only thinking as she is forced to by blind chemical reactions, then those thought processes necessarily have no relation to truth. There is no such thing at all as a fact. So her entire argument is self-defeating, because reason doesn't exist at all. Therefore, any argument she puts forward in defense of her own position--including the sad attempt at one in the post just above--is self refuting, because it makes use of the very thing her position says doesn't exist.

In a word, it's a lazy position. No one should take it seriously. It's about as credible as gapism. As she likes to say, kites and sewers. And if that's where her kite is, then really nothing she says on any subject whatsoever has any credibility. So ignore it.
OMG is this sad, and on so many levels. No one should have to struggle this much.

Have a good day.


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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#26

Post by Audacity » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:22 am

Kurieuo wrote:Audacity has no choice (no pun intended), he's just remaining logically consistent with his view of the world. If Physicalism is true, there is no free will. While our closest intuitions might say otherwise, that we have any choice is at best a mirage. I'll go with my intuition here though, and say Physicalism is wrong.
If physicalism is not true, in what manner would free will express itself?

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#27

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:12 am

In a way that our mind isn't entirely reduced to mechanical processes, but exerts influence on the mechanics.
Last edited by Kurieuo on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: to be more specific
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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#28

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:54 am

Audicity wrote:Image
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#29

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:57 am

Audacity wrote:OMG is this sad, and on so many levels. No one should have to struggle this much.

Have a good day.
There certainly is something very sad going on here. Sincerely, you have my pity.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#30

Post by Hortator » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:01 am

I often wonder what answer Audacity is looking for from us. Certainly, he has an answer for himself already. But he apparently wants to hear some magic words from us to satisfy his, whatever.

So Audacity, consider me your Speak and Spell. What do you want one of us to type?

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