Theist VS atheist

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#46

Post by RickD » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:16 pm

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:Of course ACB. But Kenny is just not being consistent with his belief that God doesn't exist.

And if any atheist is going to be consistent with his beliefs, he has to have faith in science. Because, since atheists believe God doesn't exist, or gods don't exist, then that all but removes a spiritual aspect to their beliefs.
Please explain why not believing in God removes the spiritual aspect of one's beliefs?

Ken
Actually, I said God or gods. If one doesn't believe in God or gods, there's nothing spiritually remaining to believe in.

Kenny wrote:
Actually you've got it backwards; what atheists do (myself included) is we demand the same evidence form God that we get from science; because we don't get it, that's why we don't believe in God.
And as you have been told ad nauseum, physical evidence is not the same as evidence of spiritual matters. So, you are demanding something that is not possible. And since you know this, because you have been told this multiple times, and yet you still "demand" something that's unrealistic, you can conveniently wave off the existence of God.

AND THAT KENNY, IS EXTREMELY DISHONEST!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#47

Post by Kenny » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:31 pm

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:

By definition? No; I meant exactly what I said.
Kenny,

It really doesn't matter if you mean what you said. You misused the word.
As a Christian, I am sure you see a difference between God, god, and idol; with yours being God and all others god or idol; but I don't.
And again, it makes no difference if you don't agree with the differences Kenny. The words have meanings. Please use the words properly.
I have the same respect for all other Gods as I have for yours, thus I use the capital G with all of them just as I use capitals for names. I try to stay away from idol because it is often used as a pejorative against a person's beliefs.
You didn't stay away from the term "idol". You just called an idol God. You're on a Christian forum. And you've been here long enough to understand the difference between definitions of:

1) God- The omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe.
2) god- a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity
3) idol- an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

Now that you have no excuses for using the terms improperly, please have respect for the forum you have been graciously allowed to continue to post on, and use the terms properly.
PS Do you know of anybody who claims to worship science? Or is this just something you accuse people of doing.
I was correcting your misuse of "God", by giving an example of something(science) that someone could put in the place of God.
I didn't call anybody's God an idol; not even yours. Again; do you know of anybody who claims science as their God? Or is this just something you accuse people of doing. You seem to be making the same mistake many theists make; because God is such an important part of your life, you assume everybody has to either have your God or something to take the place of your God in their lives. That just isn't the case

Ken
Kenny,

Are you really that obtuse?
You said there's no difference between the meanings of God, god, and idol. So yes, you are saying God, the creator of the universe, is no different than an idol.
And again, I didn't say that anyone claims science is their God. You are using "God" improperly again, after I asked you not to.
I'm not asking you again. Now that you know the definitions of God, god, and idol, use them the proper way.
You seem to have no interest in answering any of my questions, so I see no reason to continue this conversation. Good day sir.

Ken
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Re: Theist VS atheist

#48

Post by RickD » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:37 pm

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:

By definition? No; I meant exactly what I said.
Kenny,

It really doesn't matter if you mean what you said. You misused the word.
As a Christian, I am sure you see a difference between God, god, and idol; with yours being God and all others god or idol; but I don't.
And again, it makes no difference if you don't agree with the differences Kenny. The words have meanings. Please use the words properly.
I have the same respect for all other Gods as I have for yours, thus I use the capital G with all of them just as I use capitals for names. I try to stay away from idol because it is often used as a pejorative against a person's beliefs.
You didn't stay away from the term "idol". You just called an idol God. You're on a Christian forum. And you've been here long enough to understand the difference between definitions of:

1) God- The omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe.
2) god- a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity
3) idol- an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

Now that you have no excuses for using the terms improperly, please have respect for the forum you have been graciously allowed to continue to post on, and use the terms properly.
PS Do you know of anybody who claims to worship science? Or is this just something you accuse people of doing.
I was correcting your misuse of "God", by giving an example of something(science) that someone could put in the place of God.
I didn't call anybody's God an idol; not even yours. Again; do you know of anybody who claims science as their God? Or is this just something you accuse people of doing. You seem to be making the same mistake many theists make; because God is such an important part of your life, you assume everybody has to either have your God or something to take the place of your God in their lives. That just isn't the case

Ken
Kenny,

Are you really that obtuse?
You said there's no difference between the meanings of God, god, and idol. So yes, you are saying God, the creator of the universe, is no different than an idol.
And again, I didn't say that anyone claims science is their God. You are using "God" improperly again, after I asked you not to.
I'm not asking you again. Now that you know the definitions of God, god, and idol, use them the proper way.
You seem to have no interest in answering any of my questions, so I see no reason to continue this conversation. Good day sir.

Ken
I did respond to your questions Kenny. I told you that science cannot be someone's God. Science cannot be God. Science can be an idol or someone's god, small g. But I told you that I wasn't claiming that someone I know thinks of science as their god. I told you that I said it to show you an example of how you misused "God".

And btw Kenny, I know you wave your hand at God, but you're not going to do it to me here. I'm going to press you on things because you just refuse to understand. And if you don't respond to my questions when I press you when you're being obtuse, then there will be consequences. You've had a long enough grace period here. You're not getting away with it anymore.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#49

Post by abelcainsbrother » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:39 pm

RickD wrote:Of course ACB. But Kenny is just not being consistent with his belief that God doesn't exist.

And if any atheist is going to be consistent with his beliefs, he has to have faith in science. Because, since atheists believe God doesn't exist, or gods don't exist, then that all but removes a spiritual aspect to their beliefs. So again, IF THEY'RE CONSISTENT, they're only left with naturalism. And what's the way to understand the natural world? Science.
Yeah,But something that I think is why science has been used with some success against religion and Christianity is because all of the science produced today was all produced by looking at everything from a naturalism/ materialism view point even the scientists who believe in God are not allowed to bring God,magic,etc into the science they do and so they can only try to make a case for God based on science that was produced from a naturalism/materialism view-point and so an atheist really buy into the naturalism in science only hearing what their itching ears want to hear.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#50

Post by abelcainsbrother » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:54 pm

I am kind of tired of Kenny denying the truth about atheism and their obsession to science so if Kenny is not going to make it here? I would like to recommend an atheist forum where he can see himself how obsessed atheists are to science.Just type in The league of reason in your browser.If you are a Christian I do not recommend it.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#51

Post by Kenny » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:18 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:I am kind of tired of Kenny denying the truth about atheism and their obsession to science so if Kenny is not going to make it here? I would like to recommend an atheist forum where he can see himself how obsessed atheists are to science.Just type in The league of reason in your browser.If you are a Christian I do not recommend it.
So because you've run into some atheists on a website who you've concluded are obsessed with science, you proclaim all atheists are this way? Perhaps since I've run into you on this website and have concluded you are obsessed with creationism I should proclaim all Christians are this way. Would that be fair?

Ken
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"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#52

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:02 am

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:I am kind of tired of Kenny denying the truth about atheism and their obsession to science so if Kenny is not going to make it here? I would like to recommend an atheist forum where he can see himself how obsessed atheists are to science.Just type in The league of reason in your browser.If you are a Christian I do not recommend it.
So because you've run into some atheists on a website who you've concluded are obsessed with science, you proclaim all atheists are this way? Perhaps since I've run into you on this website and have concluded you are obsessed with creationism I should proclaim all Christians are this way. Would that be fair?

Ken
It's not me,I've been fair to you and acknowledged you're not like most atheists but I think you are failing to see the influence of science in atheism.And it is not just one forum or web-sight where atheists preach science,it is many but you won't go look and pose as a Christian and see for yourself,so you don't know and I cannot change your mind if you are not concerned about it enough to go and talk to aheists on-line.Then you might understand,it is like how most atheistts assume I'm a young earth creationist and debate me from that perspective,even when I tell them I'm not,theory stereotype and assume I am.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#53

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:02 am

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:I am kind of tired of Kenny denying the truth about atheism and their obsession to science so if Kenny is not going to make it here? I would like to recommend an atheist forum where he can see himself how obsessed atheists are to science.Just type in The league of reason in your browser.If you are a Christian I do not recommend it.
So because you've run into some atheists on a website who you've concluded are obsessed with science, you proclaim all atheists are this way? Perhaps since I've run into you on this website and have concluded you are obsessed with creationism I should proclaim all Christians are this way. Would that be fair?

Ken
It's not me,I've been fair to you and acknowledged you're not like most atheists but I think you are failing to see the influence of science in atheism.And it is not just one forum or web-sight where atheists preach science,it is many but you won't go look and pose as a Christian and see for yourself,so you don't know and I cannot change your mind if you are not concerned about it enough to go and talk to aheists on-line.Then you might understand,it is like how most atheistts assume I'm a young earth creationist and debate me from that perspective,even when I tell them I'm not,theory stereotype and assume I am.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#54

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:02 am

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:I am kind of tired of Kenny denying the truth about atheism and their obsession to science so if Kenny is not going to make it here? I would like to recommend an atheist forum where he can see himself how obsessed atheists are to science.Just type in The league of reason in your browser.If you are a Christian I do not recommend it.
So because you've run into some atheists on a website who you've concluded are obsessed with science, you proclaim all atheists are this way? Perhaps since I've run into you on this website and have concluded you are obsessed with creationism I should proclaim all Christians are this way. Would that be fair?

Ken
It's not me,I've been fair to you and acknowledged you're not like most atheists but I think you are failing to see the influence of science in atheism.And it is not just one forum or web-sight where atheists preach science,it is many but you won't go look and pose as a Christian and see for yourself,so you don't know and I cannot change your mind if you are not concerned about it enough to go and talk to aheists on-line.Then you might understand,it is like how most atheistts assume I'm a young earth creationist and debate me from that perspective,even when I tell them I'm not,they stereotype and assume I am.I have debated atheists on the amazon.com forums,they are not hard to find.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#55

Post by melanie » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:42 am

quote="Kenny"]
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:

By definition? No; I meant exactly what I said.
Kenny,

It really doesn't matter if you mean what you said. You misused the word.
As a Christian, I am sure you see a difference between God, god, and idol; with yours being God and all others god or idol; but I don't.
And again, it makes no difference if you don't agree with the differences Kenny. The words have meanings. Please use the words properly.
I have the same respect for all other Gods as I have for yours, thus I use the capital G with all of them just as I use capitals for names. I try to stay away from idol because it is often used as a pejorative against a person's beliefs.
You didn't stay away from the term "idol". You just called an idol God. You're on a Christian forum. And you've been here long enough to understand the difference between definitions of:

1) God- The omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe.
2) god- a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity
3) idol- an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

Now that you have no excuses for using the terms improperly, please have respect for the forum you have been graciously allowed to continue to post on, and use the termsl

I was correcting your misuse of "God", by giving an example of something(science) that someone could put in the place of God.
I didn't call anybody's God an idol; not even yours. Again; do you know of anybody who claims science as their God? Or is this just something you accuse people of doing. You seem to be making the same mistake many theists make; because God is such an important part of your life, you assume everybody has to either have your God or something to take the place of your God in their lives. That just isn't the case

Ken
Kenny,

Are you really that obtuse?
You said there's no difference between the meanings of God, god, and idol. So yes, you are saying God, the creator of the universe, is no different than an idol.
And again, I didn't say that anyone claims science is their God. You are using "God" improperly again, after I asked you not to.
I'm not asking you again. Now that you know the definitions of God, god, and idol, use them the proper way.
You seem to have no interest in answering any of my questions, so I see no reason to continue this conversation. Good day sir.

Ken[/quote]
I did respond to your questions Kenny. I told you that science cannot be someone's God. Science cannot be God. Science can be an idol or someone's god, small g. But I told you that I wasn't claiming that someone I know thinks of science as their god. I told you that I said it to show you an example of how you misused "God".

And btw Kenny, I know you wave your hand at God, but you're not going to do it to me here. I'm going to press you on things because you just refuse to understand. And if you don't respond to my questions when I press you when you're being obtuse, then there will be consequences. You've had a long enough grace period here. You're not getting away with it anymore.[/quote]

Whoa, hang on here.
If you don't respond to my questions, you're being being obtuse and there will be consequences.
Grace period?

This has got to be a place as far as I see it, where anyone can contribute as long as they are not being disrespectful, or personally derogative.
Not a place where threats are made.
Unless absolutely necessary.
Ken is just putting forward his beliefs. I disagree with him, but I have read the board guidelines a number of times, and he has not breached them.
A lack of understanding for you position Rick is not a basis for threats.
Last edited by melanie on Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#56

Post by melanie » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:43 am

Sorry not sure what happened to the quotes

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#57

Post by Kenny » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:45 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:I am kind of tired of Kenny denying the truth about atheism and their obsession to science so if Kenny is not going to make it here? I would like to recommend an atheist forum where he can see himself how obsessed atheists are to science.Just type in The league of reason in your browser.If you are a Christian I do not recommend it.
So because you've run into some atheists on a website who you've concluded are obsessed with science, you proclaim all atheists are this way? Perhaps since I've run into you on this website and have concluded you are obsessed with creationism I should proclaim all Christians are this way. Would that be fair?

Ken
It's not me,I've been fair to you and acknowledged you're not like most atheists but I think you are failing to see the influence of science in atheism.And it is not just one forum or web-sight where atheists preach science,it is many but you won't go look and pose as a Christian and see for yourself,so you don't know and I cannot change your mind if you are not concerned about it enough to go and talk to aheists on-line.Then you might understand,it is like how most atheistts assume I'm a young earth creationist and debate me from that perspective,even when I tell them I'm not,theory stereotype and assume I am.
My point was, you shouldn't assume all atheists are like the ones who post on atheist or religious sites. Perhaps there are some who are obsessed with science; what does that prove? You just seem to be painting with an awfully broad brush.

Kwn
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Re: Theist VS atheist

#58

Post by Kenny » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:47 am

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:

By definition? No; I meant exactly what I said.
Kenny,

It really doesn't matter if you mean what you said. You misused the word.
As a Christian, I am sure you see a difference between God, god, and idol; with yours being God and all others god or idol; but I don't.
And again, it makes no difference if you don't agree with the differences Kenny. The words have meanings. Please use the words properly.
I have the same respect for all other Gods as I have for yours, thus I use the capital G with all of them just as I use capitals for names. I try to stay away from idol because it is often used as a pejorative against a person's beliefs.
You didn't stay away from the term "idol". You just called an idol God. You're on a Christian forum. And you've been here long enough to understand the difference between definitions of:

1) God- The omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe.
2) god- a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity
3) idol- an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

Now that you have no excuses for using the terms improperly, please have respect for the forum you have been graciously allowed to continue to post on, and use the termsl

I was correcting your misuse of "God", by giving an example of something(science) that someone could put in the place of God.
I didn't call anybody's God an idol; not even yours. Again; do you know of anybody who claims science as their God? Or is this just something you accuse people of doing. You seem to be making the same mistake many theists make; because God is such an important part of your life, you assume everybody has to either have your God or something to take the place of your God in their lives. That just isn't the case

Ken
RickD wrote: Kenny,

Are you really that obtuse?
You said there's no difference between the meanings of God, god, and idol. So yes, you are saying God, the creator of the universe, is no different than an idol.
And again, I didn't say that anyone claims science is their God. You are using "God" improperly again, after I asked you not to.
I'm not asking you again. Now that you know the definitions of God, god, and idol, use them the proper way.
You seem to have no interest in answering any of my questions, so I see no reason to continue this conversation. Good day sir.

Ken
RickD wrote: I did respond to your questions Kenny. I told you that science cannot be someone's God. Science cannot be God. Science can be an idol or someone's god, small g. But I told you that I wasn't claiming that someone I know thinks of science as their god. I told you that I said it to show you an example of how you misused "God".

And btw Kenny, I know you wave your hand at God, but you're not going to do it to me here. I'm going to press you on things because you just refuse to understand. And if you don't respond to my questions when I press you when you're being obtuse, then there will be consequences. You've had a long enough grace period here. You're not getting away with it anymore.
Melanie wrote:Whoa, hang on here.
If you don't respond to my questions, you're being being obtuse and there will be consequences.
Grace period?

This has got to be a place as far as I see it, where anyone can contribute as long as they are not being disrespectful, or personally derogative.
Not a place where threats are made.
Unless absolutely necessary.
Ken is just putting forward his beliefs. I disagree with him, but I have read the board guidelines a number of times, and he has not breached them.
A lack of understanding for you position Rick is not a basis for threats.
Thank-you Melanie.

Ken
Last edited by Kenny on Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theist VS atheist

#59

Post by RickD » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:18 am

Mel wrote:
Whoa, hang on here.
If you don't respond to my questions, you're being being obtuse and there will be consequences.
Grace period?

This has got to be a place as far as I see it, where anyone can contribute as long as they are not being disrespectful, or personally derogative.
Not a place where threats are made.
Unless absolutely necessary.
Ken is just putting forward his beliefs. I disagree with him, but I have read the board guidelines a number of times, and he has not breached them.
A lack of understanding for you position Rick is not a basis for threats.
Well Mel,

Then maybe you need to reread the Board purpose. Specifically the underlined.
Who is the message board intended for?
This message board is publicly open to anyone who wishes to register and participate in discussions, however it is ultimately intended for a specific audience. It is intended to serve as a place for:

Sincere seekers to inquire and ask questions;
Christians to give and receive encouragement and instruction; and
Non-Christians who are willing to "walk a thin line" and reason sensitively and respectfully.
This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs. As such, those who are Christian, have not made up their minds, or desire civilised discussions on Christianity are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged and will be heavily moderated.
This board is not intended for posters like Kenny. He has been given more opportunities than anyone else, since I've been here. And if you were following Kenny's posts since he joined, like I've been following them, you'd understand what I'm talking about.
And since you think the reason why I warned Kenny is simply because he doesn't understand my position, it's obvious you have no idea what Kenny has been posting for the last 16 months.

And Mel,

You said Kenny is putting forth his beliefs. When has Kenny ever put forth any belief? He has made it a habit of avoiding posting beliefs, so he won't have to defend what he believes. It's an extremely dishonest and disrespectful way to have discussions.
So yes Mel, the warnings are long overdue. Whether you like it or not.

Look at it from my pov. I allow Kenny to continue posting as he does, and I'm not enforcing the board guidelines. If I do enforce the board guidelines, then I'm accused by you of being a bully.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

abelcainsbrother
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Re: Theist VS atheist

#60

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:19 am

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:I am kind of tired of Kenny denying the truth about atheism and their obsession to science so if Kenny is not going to make it here? I would like to recommend an atheist forum where he can see himself how obsessed atheists are to science.Just type in The league of reason in your browser.If you are a Christian I do not recommend it.
So because you've run into some atheists on a website who you've concluded are obsessed with science, you proclaim all atheists are this way? Perhaps since I've run into you on this website and have concluded you are obsessed with creationism I should proclaim all Christians are this way. Would that be fair?

Ken
It's not me,I've been fair to you and acknowledged you're not like most atheists but I think you are failing to see the influence of science in atheism.And it is not just one forum or web-sight where atheists preach science,it is many but you won't go look and pose as a Christian and see for yourself,so you don't know and I cannot change your mind if you are not concerned about it enough to go and talk to aheists on-line.Then you might understand,it is like how most atheistts assume I'm a young earth creationist and debate me from that perspective,even when I tell them I'm not,theory stereotype and assume I am.
My point was, you shouldn't assume all atheists are like the ones who post on atheist or religious sites. Perhaps there are some who are obsessed with science; what does that prove? You just seem to be painting with an awfully broad brush.

Kwn
No I have'nt .You don't seem to read.I never assumed you were like the other atheists,I acknowledged you are not like them so you have no reason to feel sterio-typed by me.You seem to read things into what I say and I do think you are being intellectually dishonest denying how atheists have used science to grow atheism. I personally think they have reached their peak,but they have used sciences to expand atheism and just because you have'nt does not change the facts.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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