Theist VS atheist

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
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Re: Theist VS atheist

#16

Post by Kenny » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:11 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:The truth hurts and it offends people but the difference between a theist and an atheist is the atheist chooses to defy logic,reason and reality in order to deny God.Atheists choose to live by 100% pure imagination and lives by this imagination instead of believing in God.

But it gets worse because they think living by imagination is easier than believing in God,and even when you point it out to them that they are living by imagination?They get defensive and hard headed and still choose to by blind faith believe in their imagination and they think they are so smart and have evolved out of a belief in God.

This is before we even get into evidence which atheists lack which is why they try to make us prove God exists,then no amount of evidence you give them for God works because they reject it and always revert back to their imagination they live by.

Everybody who believes in God lives within logic,reason and reality,but atheists's imagination surpasses logic,reason and reality.

These are facts of logic,reason and reality that theist's believe and atheists reject.

ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause ARE caused by something else and all things are willed into existence. The atheists reject these facts and use imagination,while people who believe in God live in logic,reason and reality.

It requires far,far more faith to be an atheist and live by imagination instead of logic,reason and reality but it is blind faith too which is why they don't have evidence for their atheism and cannot name one thing in our world that does not apply to the facts of logic,reason and reality yet try to make us prove God is real.Logic,reason and reality alone prove God exists.
How many times have you repeated this drivel? One would have thought you would have come up with some new material by now. Perhaps the method to your madness is if you repeat it enough times somebody will actually believe it......Naaw fat chance of that happening; but I'm sure we'll hear it again! Carry on my friend!

Ken
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Re: Theist VS atheist

#17

Post by Nessa » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:20 am

Ken

Why do you post here? Just wondering :)

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#18

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:14 am

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:It is a article that is generalizing, which is the only way to discuss things in a GENERAL way.
It is never a good idea to put out the "specification issues" in something that is making a generalized statement.

EX:
Canadian love hockey.
This is a generalization since there are many that don't BUT in general Canadians love hockey.

To counter that statement by saying some do not does NOT invalidate the generalization at all.
I agree. My problem with the article was that I disagreed with much of the generalized statements he made about Atheists, and the generalized statements he was right about I believe applies not only to most Atheists, but to most Christians as well. example; do most atheists depend upon science? Yes; but so do most Christians as well!

Ken
PaulSacramento wrote: Of course Christians trust science and they should, not to the same degree that they trust God of course.
As a mechanical engineer I love and trust science for what it IS, not what I want it to be or others think it is ( the answer to all of life's questions).
That's my point. It seems Theists are convinced Atheists perceive science as knowing the answers to all of life's questions. I have never heard of an atheist that feels this way but I've heard plenty of theists (Christians) who claim atheists feel this way. All of the atheists I know of (myself included) recognize science do not know all the answers, but they believe science knows more than anyone else; theism included.
PaulSacramento wrote:[ And Wright's generalizations of atheist are, from my many years of experience and IMO, quite correct.
I think his generalizations of atheists are typical of what most Christians believe them to be.

Ken
See, that is the issue Ken.
Right here:
All of the atheists I know of (myself included) recognize science do not know all the answers, but they believe science knows more than anyone else; theism included.
First off, you too are generalizing, of course.
Second, science and theism do NOT ask the same questions NOR look for the same answers so science does NOT, can NOT know more than theism.
Science ONLY address the HOW of the observable, nothing more.
Theism tries to address the WHY of not ONLY the observable, but also the abstract "non-observable".

Also:
I think his generalizations of atheists are typical of what most Christians believe them to be.
Sure, of course John Wright WAS an atheist and a rather "militant" one at that.
But allow me to flip the coin if I may:

I think YOUR generalizations of Christians are typical of what most atheists believe them to be.

See what I am saying?

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#19

Post by Kenny » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:31 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:It is a article that is generalizing, which is the only way to discuss things in a GENERAL way.
It is never a good idea to put out the "specification issues" in something that is making a generalized statement.

EX:
Canadian love hockey.
This is a generalization since there are many that don't BUT in general Canadians love hockey.

To counter that statement by saying some do not does NOT invalidate the generalization at all.
I agree. My problem with the article was that I disagreed with much of the generalized statements he made about Atheists, and the generalized statements he was right about I believe applies not only to most Atheists, but to most Christians as well. example; do most atheists depend upon science? Yes; but so do most Christians as well!

Ken
PaulSacramento wrote: Of course Christians trust science and they should, not to the same degree that they trust God of course.
As a mechanical engineer I love and trust science for what it IS, not what I want it to be or others think it is ( the answer to all of life's questions).
That's my point. It seems Theists are convinced Atheists perceive science as knowing the answers to all of life's questions. I have never heard of an atheist that feels this way but I've heard plenty of theists (Christians) who claim atheists feel this way. All of the atheists I know of (myself included) recognize science do not know all the answers, but they believe science knows more than anyone else; theism included.
PaulSacramento wrote:[ And Wright's generalizations of atheist are, from my many years of experience and IMO, quite correct.
I think his generalizations of atheists are typical of what most Christians believe them to be.

Ken
See, that is the issue Ken.
Right here:
All of the atheists I know of (myself included) recognize science do not know all the answers, but they believe science knows more than anyone else; theism included.
First off, you too are generalizing, of course.
Second, science and theism do NOT ask the same questions NOR look for the same answers so science does NOT, can NOT know more than theism.
Science ONLY address the HOW of the observable, nothing more.
Theism tries to address the WHY of not ONLY the observable, but also the abstract "non-observable".

Also:
I think his generalizations of atheists are typical of what most Christians believe them to be.
Sure, of course John Wright WAS an atheist and a rather "militant" one at that.
But allow me to flip the coin if I may:

I think YOUR generalizations of Christians are typical of what most atheists believe them to be.

See what I am saying?


Paulsacramento
First off, you too are generalizing, of course.
Second, science and theism do NOT ask the same questions NOR look for the same answers so science does NOT, can NOT know more than theism.


Ken
I disagree! According to the Atheist, science provides relatively few accurate answers, theism provides a bunch of wrong answers.

PaulSacramento
Science ONLY address the HOW of the observable, nothing more.
Theism tries to address the WHY of not ONLY the observable, but also the abstract "non-observable".


Ken
But because of the way science goes about getting their answers, their claims sound credible; but the way theism goes about getting their answers, theirs do not.

Paulsacramento
Sure, of course John Wright WAS an atheist and a rather "militant" one at that.
But allow me to flip the coin if I may:

I think YOUR generalizations of Christians are typical of what most atheists believe them to be.

See what I am saying?


Ken
The only generalization I made about Christians included you; according to your own words. So do you agree with the generalization I made about Christians?


Ken
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"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#20

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:50 am

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:The truth hurts and it offends people but the difference between a theist and an atheist is the atheist chooses to defy logic,reason and reality in order to deny God.Atheists choose to live by 100% pure imagination and lives by this imagination instead of believing in God.

But it gets worse because they think living by imagination is easier than believing in God,and even when you point it out to them that they are living by imagination?They get defensive and hard headed and still choose to by blind faith believe in their imagination and they think they are so smart and have evolved out of a belief in God.

This is before we even get into evidence which atheists lack which is why they try to make us prove God exists,then no amount of evidence you give them for God works because they reject it and always revert back to their imagination they live by.

Everybody who believes in God lives within logic,reason and reality,but atheists's imagination surpasses logic,reason and reality.

These are facts of logic,reason and reality that theist's believe and atheists reject.

ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause ARE caused by something else and all things are willed into existence. The atheists reject these facts and use imagination,while people who believe in God live in logic,reason and reality.

It requires far,far more faith to be an atheist and live by imagination instead of logic,reason and reality but it is blind faith too which is why they don't have evidence for their atheism and cannot name one thing in our world that does not apply to the facts of logic,reason and reality yet try to make us prove God is real.Logic,reason and reality alone prove God exists.
How many times have you repeated this drivel? One would have thought you would have come up with some new material by now. Perhaps the method to your madness is if you repeat it enough times somebody will actually believe it......Naaw fat chance of that happening; but I'm sure we'll hear it again! Carry on my friend!

Ken
Yes,I repeat it because it is the truth and needs to be pointed out.I know the truth hurts but it is true and cannot be refuted which is why you cannot name one thing in our world that does not apply to the facts because all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else and all things are willed into existence. This is why you avoid this topic and reply to other points people make on here that are easier to explain away.It is a fact Kenny my friend that you reject the fats of our world.You really need to address this because I'm just pointing out the truth of logic,reason and reality. Name something in our world that does not apply to these facts,because until you understand the truth? It is pointless to try to persuade you God is real if you dismiss these facts and instead go on imagination.St Thomas Aquinas was right all those who reject God reject logic,reason and reality.

There is no reason based on logic,reason and reality to reject all things have a cause and all things that are caused were caused by something else and all things are willed into existence that you reject in order to deny God. Face the truth and don't get mad.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#21

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:30 am

Nessa wrote:Ken

Why do you post here? Just wondering :)
He's trying to join an atheist club, and it's his initiation. :mrgreen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#22

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:05 am

Paulsacramento
First off, you too are generalizing, of course.
Second, science and theism do NOT ask the same questions NOR look for the same answers so science does NOT, can NOT know more than theism.

Ken
I disagree! According to the Atheist, science provides relatively few accurate answers, theism provides a bunch of wrong answers.
That is YOUR opinion.
PaulSacramento
Science ONLY address the HOW of the observable, nothing more.
Theism tries to address the WHY of not ONLY the observable, but also the abstract "non-observable".

Ken
But because of the way science goes about getting their answers, their claims sound credible; but the way theism goes about getting their answers, theirs do not.
Incorrect, you fail to understand what Theism is and until you do, this is pointless.
It seems you are arguing that philosophy is wrong because it doesn't address science.
Again, pointless to argue .


Paulsacramento
Sure, of course John Wright WAS an atheist and a rather "militant" one at that.
But allow me to flip the coin if I may:

I think YOUR generalizations of Christians are typical of what most atheists believe them to be.

See what I am saying?

Ken
The only generalization I made about Christians included you; according to your own words. So do you agree with the generalization I made about Christians?
The only generalization I make ( or John Wright for example) about atheists is according to THEIR OWN words, so...



Ken, you are simply being argumentative for the sake of arguing and that is becoming abundantly clear.

Your arguments lack a solid foundation on philosophical logic or even a clear understanding of any theology and are based only bias opinion and gross misunderstanding of what theism is in general and Christianity in particular.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#23

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:26 am

Psalms 53:1
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God,”
They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice;
There is no one who does good.


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... o_god.html
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Kenny
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Re: Theist VS atheist

#24

Post by Kenny » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:38 am

Nessa wrote:Ken

Why do you post here? Just wondering :)
I provide a point of view that is very rare on this site, providing an opportunity for dialogue for anyone unchallenged by preaching to the choir.
Why do YOU post here? Just wondering.

Ken
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"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#25

Post by melanie » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:58 am

ohh la la.
You are usually so mild tempered Kenny!
Keep posting mate :)
I don't agree with most of what you say, but I appreciate different perspectives.

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#26

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:11 am

Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:Ken

Why do you post here? Just wondering :)
I provide a point of view that is very rare on this site, providing an opportunity for dialogue for anyone unchallenged by preaching to the choir.
Why do YOU post here? Just wondering.

Ken
LOL !
Dude...you flatter yourself.
We get more dissenting views WITHIN Christianity itself then ANYTHING you can ever bring up !
LOL !

I should know !

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#27

Post by Nessa » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:19 am

Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:Ken

Why do you post here? Just wondering :)
I provide a point of view that is very rare on this site, providing an opportunity for dialogue for anyone unchallenged by preaching to the choir.
Why do YOU post here? Just wondering.

Ken
By the way, that wasnt meant to insinuate you shouldnt post here...just wanted to know more about where you were coming from?

Why do I post here?
I'm not really sure

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#28

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:11 am

Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:Ken

Why do you post here? Just wondering :)
I provide a point of view that is very rare on this site, providing an opportunity for dialogue for anyone unchallenged by preaching to the choir.
Why do YOU post here? Just wondering.

Ken
By the way, that wasnt meant to insinuate you shouldnt post here...just wanted to know more about where you were coming from?

Why do I post here?
I'm not really sure
Really Nessa?

I can tell you why you post here.

2) You are looking for answers to some of the questions you have(just like the rest of us).
3) And, you enjoy the time talking with other believers.
4) And you just want to learn different points of view.

1) You like my jokes.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Kenny
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Re: Theist VS atheist

#29

Post by Kenny » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:29 am

Paulsacramento
First off, you too are generalizing, of course.
Second, science and theism do NOT ask the same questions NOR look for the same answers so science does NOT, can NOT know more than theism.

Ken
I disagree! According to the Atheist, science provides relatively few accurate answers, theism provides a bunch of wrong answers.
PaulSacramento wrote: That is YOUR opinion.
The question is being answered from the perspective of the Atheist. You are aware Atheists; not just myself are convinced theism provides a bunch of wrong answers aren't you?
PaulSacramento
Science ONLY address the HOW of the observable, nothing more.
Theism tries to address the WHY of not ONLY the observable, but also the abstract "non-observable".

Ken
But because of the way science goes about getting their answers, their claims sound credible; but the way theism goes about getting their answers, theirs do not.
PaulSacramento wrote: Incorrect, you fail to understand what Theism is and until you do, this is pointless.
It seems you are arguing that philosophy is wrong because it doesn't address science.
Again, pointless to argue.
No! I am arguing from the Atheist perspective, not just mine but atheism in general. If you are going to claim the atheist position to be unreasonable, don't cha think you should at least consider things from his point of view?


Paulsacramento
Sure, of course John Wright WAS an atheist and a rather "militant" one at that.
But allow me to flip the coin if I may:

I think YOUR generalizations of Christians are typical of what most atheists believe them to be.

See what I am saying?

Ken
The only generalization I made about Christians included you; according to your own words. So do you agree with the generalization I made about Christians?
PaulSacramento wrote: The only generalization I make ( or John Wright for example) about atheists is according to THEIR OWN words, so...
[/quote]
The only generalization I made about John Wright was that his perspective was typical of most Christians. YOU said you believe his words were quite correct; did you not? Go back and read what you wrote if you don't believe me.
The generalizations you and John made about atheists is something you've CONCLUDED from what Atheists have said; no atheists claimed to agree with what he is saying about us.
You can't compare your generalizations to mine.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Theist VS atheist

#30

Post by Kenny » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:31 am

Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:Ken

Why do you post here? Just wondering :)
I provide a point of view that is very rare on this site, providing an opportunity for dialogue for anyone unchallenged by preaching to the choir.
Why do YOU post here? Just wondering.

Ken
Nessa wrote: By the way, that wasnt meant to insinuate you shouldnt post here...just wanted to know more about where you were coming from?
No offense was taken.
Nessa wrote: Why do I post here?
I'm not really sure
Whatever your reasons; I look foreword to hearing from you

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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