Reason to believe (The learning version)

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
oldman
Established Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:01 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Abthorpe
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#61

Post by oldman » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:16 am

B. W. wrote:
oldman wrote:
B. W. wrote:You know by what Spirit resides in us - the Spirit of the Living YHWH.


With or with out cannabis, this is the eternal truth and you have again shown your complete contempt for it.

From the Father and the Son came their perfect and eternal love for each other. Their love is their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. The Son came from the Father and He naturally looks up to His Father, but without the Father's only eternal child there would be no possibility for an eternal God known as "love", "God is love", as Scripture clearly proclaims, and this love cannot exist with one person alone. This love, this God called love, needs at least two free thinking reasoning minds. Through the eternal Son the Father became the eternal giver of joy in perfect caring and sharing, and through the eternal Father His Son became the eternal receiver and giver of this same Spirit. Without the eternal Son there would be no such Spirit of pure and perfect eternal love; and it is this eternal Spirit that comes through the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son, all creation is governed. This Spirit naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. It is this Spirit who will live and rule in all who will value Him above all others. Father Son and Holy Spirit are dependent upon each other for being what they are. All three are of equal value.


It is written: Col 1:15, 16, 17, He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (preeminent author) of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. NASB

AMG's Word Study Dictionary defines the greek word translated first born according to context and not on pure mechanical definition rightly as preeminent author…
AMG's Word Study Dictionary

Greek Strong Number 4416

πρωτότοκος
prōtótokos; gen. prōtotókou, masc. noun from prṓtos (G4413), first, and tíktō (G5088), to bear, bring forth. Firstborn, preeminent.


(B) The word prōtótokos is also used in relation to God's creation referring to Christ's supremacy over it. Jesus Christ cannot be both creator and creature. In Col 1:15 He is placed above His creation when He is called prōtótokos pásēs ktíseōs (pásēs, gen. fem. of pás [G3956], every; ktíseōs, gen. of ktísis [G2937], creation or creature), "the firstborn of every creature," or better still, "the one preeminent over all creation" (a.t.). The next verse makes it adequately clear, "For by him were all things created," meaning that He Himself is not part of creation (cf. John 1:3). The meaning approximates that of the noun archḗ (G746), beginning, which means either objectively the first effect, the first created thing, or subjectively the first cause, the source of creation. In Rev 3:14 the noun archḗ in the phrase hē archḗ tḗs ktíseōs toú Theoú is intended to identify Jesus as the first cause or source of creation and not as the first object of creation. Jesus Christ is consequently the archḗ, the ruler over all.


Jesus was not created, nor is he a created being as your doctrine suggest.


Thank you for this opportunity to continue our discussion B.D., let us try and take this in small steps if we can.



How can the Son not come from His Father and still be the Father's Son?
How can any son exist without there first being a father?


As hard as it for our finite minds to perceive infinity, the fact remains the Son must have come from His Father because they would not have been revealed to us as “Father” and “Son” for nothing. If the Son was not the Son of the Father He would not have told us He was the Son of the Father.

The infinite mind of the Father knows everything, including the beginning before anything was made, He knows His first perceptions of His existence before anything was made. He knows when His Son first existed in His thoughts, as a person like Himself, before anything was made. The Father and the Son are one because the Son came through the Father's thoughts and the Father and the Son love each other with a perfect love.

In the beginning the Son existed in the thoughts of the Father, and the Son came from the Father before anything was made. Everything about the Son is like the Father, except the Father was first, but they are two free thinking persons who, because of their pure and perfect love for each other created everything, instilling that love in all who they created.


“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made”. John 1:1-3

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” Col 1:15-17


I see no contradiction here. What other way do you say we should perceive “the Father and the Son”? Please show me the Scripture references that tell you I am wrong in my understanding of the "Father" and the"Son", (one at a time if possible, so that their meanings can be thoroughly examined without any confusion).

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5240
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 297 times

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#62

Post by 1over137 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:03 am

Sorry for jumping in. For some verses we can go here http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesuscreated.html and then discuss one at a time. Arena is yours B.W.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#63

Post by B. W. » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:31 am

oldman,

Suggest you read the article written by Richard Deem that 1over mentioned mentioned above...

Next, read these threads in their entirety as they provide all the scripture necessary:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=38637

These answer you completely...

Next, oldman, what you written reveals more spirit guide talk and nothing more. You just provide - words - words - nothing more.

Next, I thought you were leaving.

So, do you want to be free from your spirit guides or not?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9203
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 347 times

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#64

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:01 am

The issue of Christ being "created" is something that I dealt with when dealing with JW's.
The simple fact is that NOWHERE In scripture well you find that Christ was created.
You DO find that He was Begotten of God, that He is the exact representation of God, that He is God, that He will be called Almighty God, called God with Us, that He was in the form of God before His incarnation.

That Christ is God is clear.
What at times may seem muddled is what that means and what that means is that Christ has the same nature as His Father.
God is not a name, it is a "title", it is a "definition", it is what The Father, Son and HS are.

oldman
Established Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:01 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Abthorpe
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#65

Post by oldman » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:08 am

B. W. wrote:oldman,

Suggest you read the article written by Richard Deem that 1over mentioned mentioned above...

Next, read these threads in their entirety as they provide all the scripture necessary:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=38637

These answer you completely...

Next, oldman, what you written reveals more spirit guide talk and nothing more. You just provide - words - words - nothing more.

Next, I thought you were leaving.



If that is the best you can do as a reply to what I asked you and wrote in my previous post to you concerning the meaning of “the Father” and “the Son”, then yes, I suppose I may as well leave.
B. W. wrote:So, do you want to be free from your spirit guides or not?

I don't really know what you are talking about. I have repeatedly explained the meaning of the Spirit that guides me but you still believe this Spirit is of the devil.

I am truly sorry for you, as I am for all who you influence.


Happy Christmas everyone, love to you all.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#66

Post by B. W. » Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:45 pm

oldman wrote:
B. W. wrote:oldman,

Suggest you read the article written by Richard Deem that 1over mentioned mentioned above...

Next, read these threads in their entirety as they provide all the scripture necessary:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=38637

These answer you completely...

Next, oldman, what you written reveals more spirit guide talk and nothing more. You just provide - words - words - nothing more.

Next, I thought you were leaving.



If that is the best you can do as a reply to what I asked you and wrote in my previous post to you concerning the meaning of “the Father” and “the Son”, then yes, I suppose I may as well leave.
B. W. wrote:So, do you want to be free from your spirit guides or not?
I don't really know what you are talking about. I have repeatedly explained the meaning of the Spirit that guides me but you still believe this Spirit is of the devil.

I am truly sorry for you, as I am for all who you influence.

Happy Christmas everyone, love to you all.
Listen, it is you who need to discuss to defend your stance, not us. If too lazy to read the links - what point is it to repeat the same things posted in the links to you, here?

Again, your spirit guides are telling on you. They do not teach or reveal Jesus at all - only themselves they glorify and in doing so deceive you into glorifying yourself.

As it is written when Jesus said: "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me." John 15:26 NASB

The Holy Spirit will testify - bear witness to Jesus Christ, alone, in thought and deed, even when he speaks of himself, the Holy Spirit will glorify Jesus in doing so as it is written: "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you." John 16:13, 14 NASB

Reviewing what your write about your spirit of truth does not do any of this. It seeks to glorify, Infinite Spirit, the strongman, that controls all your spirit guides. They tell on each other and expose themselves due to their nature of hubris. You are not under the influence of the True Holy Spirit of truth. What you have written and will write, if you so chose to stay, violates what Jesus reveals about the True Holy Spirit and how the True Holy Spirit speaks. Also, it just maybe that your are actually deceived into thinking you have no spirit guides controlled by one strong one. However, I doubt that, due to the nature of the entities I dealt with counseling New Age folks, and various cultist, and Gnostic types. Those folks found freedom in Christ and remain free to this day (and beyond) because they no longer want the influence of such hubristic spirit guides as their lives began to spiral downward - not the direction promised.

But since you mock us here on this forum by your snide remarks just made concerning your inability to read the truths brought out in the links, inspired to help folks; Hereby, be made noticed that within the next 24 hours, you will receive a temporary ban so you can decide if you desire to retain your spirit guides who only testify of themselves and mock, not us, but YHWH as revealed in the comments you made.

If you desire to leave, why didn't you leave earlier when so stated?

Fact is, you could not due to your spirit guides hubris becoming agitated in seeking to entrap YHWH in an unjust act or word, as well as entrap others on this forum, as well as seeking converts to your spirit guide wisdom so they become ensnared all in a vain attempt to trick YHWH. Nothing has changed in all the human years of time. The same sweet deceptive religious sounding logic to draw folks to death.

Again, when the ban takes effect - take the time to decide if you desire your spirit guides, or the true freedom Jesus Christ brings because with justice comes honest choice...

Therefore, the choice is yours...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

oldman
Established Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:01 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Abthorpe
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#67

Post by oldman » Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:36 am

B. W. wrote:

Therefore, the choice is yours...
-
-
-


Just one more thing,

the choice is ours...


...and I thank God for revealing His Spirit of pure and perfect love through the finished work of the Son. I thank the Father for giving me His Spirit that embraces all knowledge and wisdom and puts to death my old corrupt self by making me faithful to love unto death.

I thank God for saving this pathetic soul who lived by contempt for others and who now lives for Christ.

I thank God for making me see the meaning of truth and the way of salvation, I thank Him for setting me free from the way of lies.

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5240
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 297 times

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#68

Post by 1over137 » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:58 am

And one more thing from me...

Bible Verses about Spiritual Growth

Colossians 1:9-10 ESV
And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

1 Peter 2:1-25 ESV
So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Matthew 5:6 ESV
“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

2 Peter 3:18 ESV
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Ephesians 4:15-16 ESV
Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

Psalm 1:1-3 ESV
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#69

Post by B. W. » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:41 am

Update:

For those following this thread line. oldman was temporally banned due to accusatory tone he imposed upon those responding to him as well as an unwillingness to discuss matters according to Forum Guidelines. We have shown great grace by permitting oldman to express his views, and offering him choice in the matter of his own spiritual development. Oldman did not demonstrate this toward those participating on this thread line. He falsely accused us here of blaspheming the Holy Spirit for daring to questioning his point of view.

Next, while cannabis can or may have some medical value etc, however, when used to increase ones spirituality, that medical value falls to the wayside. Such use is classed in the bible, as forbidden due to the conjuring nature of inviting spirits (demonic) into a person's life. Such drugs were used in the past for that purpose. Let me state that the Lord himself, would not induce someone to use cannabis (or alcohol, meth, etc) in order to grow one's spirituality toward himself. The bible is clear - Jesus is the only way to the Father - there are no other ways, no matter how presented. Any other way would be classed as breaking the first two of the Ten Commandants and setting up an idol to serve.

While oldman's words appear to sound nice, he denies who Jesus really is and portrays Jesus as a mere created thought of God. Much of what he said is seemingly Gnostic and new age-ish. He constantly demands that we define what we believe and when he did, he either ignored this, or chooses not to read it. Oldman's comments serve as a testament of a spiritually oppressed person bound to spirit guides. Some people may have never encounter this before so let this thread serve as a learning ground. There are people, as the bible says, taken captive to do the devils will, who often come as angels of light, in order to deceive and entrap. They do speak great swelling words of emptiness too.

The bible, as shown on this thread, indeed mentions that the true Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus and glorifies him. When someone comes along, saying they have a holy spirit that does not do this, rest assured you are dealing with someone bound to spirit guides or worse. From what oldman has written, my prayer is that you see this.

Now for oldman, as I stated I would, would like to have anyone willing reading this join and agree with me in a short prayer for him:

Heavenly Father, we thank you for writing our names in the book of life, granting us authority to bear your name and walk as you being your hands, feet, your body on earth to tell good news to those afflicted, to heal the brokenhearted, to speak forth liberty to those held captive to tragic thoughts, and freedom to those held prisoner to bondages. We thank you for your ability at work in us to be able to proclaim the liberating gospel and proclaim the the reason why you disapprove of certain things clearly for there will be a day of your vengeance. We thank you for instructing us on how to bring comfort to those who mourn over the errors of their ways and how to turn sadness of loss into gladness and a garland of victory in Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. We thank you for teaching us to praise instead of faint and lose heart when we see those around choose to walk according to the ways of ruin. We thank you, for making us solid, like oaks to show case your righteousness alone and not our own personal ideas of it. We thank you for granting us the authority to rebuild from the ruins your Kingdom on earth where ever you have assigned us.

We lift up oldman according to your authority, and ask you to set him free from the deceptions of his spirit guides. Lead him to grow weary of these and wake him up to the ruin they will lead him too so that oldman can repent and turn to you alone. We ask that you keep after him, make his life miserable in order to wake him up to his deceptions because he cannot see how he will be held to account for deceiving many to follow his ways. He has given himself over to spiritual paths, not ordained by you but to those ways condemned by you and is heading for a fearful day of judgment. We ask you Lord to spare him this, and begin the process in oldman's life by which he repents and returns to You, you alone. Release your ministering angels to do battle on your behalf for him so his life be spared all at you command as you know best. Heavenly Father, we thank you for permitting oldman to come here and we know, as it is written, that you do not desire to lose anyone, and sent forth Messiah Yeshua, for that purpose, you know who will make it and who will not. Those things we don't know, but oldman came here and we did our duty to reach out in true love and true love is often tuff, in order to set the captive free. So according to your will, we plead for oldman's complete salvation at your appointed time.

In Jesus name. Amen

-
-
-
Isaiah 61:1,2, 3, 4c
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

domokunrox
Valued Member
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:52 am
Christian: Yes
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#70

Post by domokunrox » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:19 am

Well, now that the dust on this is all settled. I just wanted to say that while I commend everyone for their extreme patience, but I hope you guys recognize that a MUCH shorter lease is a better idea once you've identified this sort of archetype way of reasoning. I wholly agree that everyone needs a space to say what is their position, but when they clearly aren't responding to your arguments, shrug it off, making bald accusations, and putting walls of text that appear like complete gibberish; I recommend just shutting it down because it has no respect at all for your time and the next person. Ultimately, it makes them believe that their way of discussion is acceptable (and it isn't). We owe it to at least the next person he tries to convince that steamrolling with accusations and being at times completely unresponsive to what a dialog is; is unacceptable.

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5240
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 297 times

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#71

Post by 1over137 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:52 am

Personally, I wanted to spend some time posting to this person.
Maybe next time I can go private.

Yes, we may do better to show when someone's way of posting is unacceptable.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 228 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#72

Post by neo-x » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:10 am

domokunrox wrote:Well, now that the dust on this is all settled. I just wanted to say that while I commend everyone for their extreme patience, but I hope you guys recognize that a MUCH shorter lease is a better idea once you've identified this sort of archetype way of reasoning. I wholly agree that everyone needs a space to say what is their position, but when they clearly aren't responding to your arguments, shrug it off, making bald accusations, and putting walls of text that appear like complete gibberish; I recommend just shutting it down because it has no respect at all for your time and the next person. Ultimately, it makes them believe that their way of discussion is acceptable (and it isn't). We owe it to at least the next person he tries to convince that steamrolling with accusations and being at times completely unresponsive to what a dialog is; is unacceptable.
1over137 wrote:Personally, I wanted to spend some time posting to this person.
Maybe next time I can go private.

Yes, we may do better to show when someone's way of posting is unacceptable.
I think its good that we give people time. It would certainly be awfull if we started banning people immediately.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

oldman
Established Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:01 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Abthorpe
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#73

Post by oldman » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:15 am

Thank you Moderators and Administrators for allowing me to reply, I am indeed grateful because I feel now I have a duty to reply. Sorry its rather late in coming but for one reason and another I have only just finished writing it.

I will do my best not to allow this discussion to overheat in future, it is also my hope and prayer that you will take care to read and understand what has been written.

B. W. wrote:Update:

For those following this thread line. oldman was temporally banned due to accusatory tone he imposed upon those responding to him as well as an unwillingness to discuss matters according to Forum Guidelines. We have shown great grace by permitting oldman to express his views, and offering him choice in the matter of his own spiritual development. Oldman did not demonstrate this toward those participating on this thread line. He falsely accused us here of blaspheming the Holy Spirit for daring to questioning his point of view.

Next, while cannabis can or may have some medical value etc, however, when used to increase ones spirituality, that medical value falls to the wayside. Such use is classed in the bible, as forbidden due to the conjuring nature of inviting spirits (demonic) into a person's life. Such drugs were used in the past for that purpose. Let me state that the Lord himself, would not induce someone to use cannabis (or alcohol, meth, etc) in order to grow one's spirituality toward himself. The bible is clear - Jesus is the only way to the Father - there are no other ways, no matter how presented. Any other way would be classed as breaking the first two of the Ten Commandants and setting up an idol to serve.

While oldman's words appear to sound nice, he denies who Jesus really is and portrays Jesus as a mere created thought of God.


Excuse me but I do not deny Jesus is God, neither do I deny the reality of the Trinity. What I do deny however is the idea that Jesus the Son of God, did not come from His Father.

Just before Christmas I posted a reply to you because of your refusal to accept that in the beginning, the Son came from His Father. What I asked you was:

How can the Son not come from His Father and still be the Father's Son?
“How can any son exist without there first being a father?”


But instead of giving me a clear answer to these questions, the reply I got was a suggestion that I should read an article by Richard Deem http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesuscreated.html which supported the concept of Trinity. This article also included some Bible references that speak of Jesus being God. But there was nothing there to disprove the belief that in the beginning God the Son came from His Father. I was also given some links to some old threads in another forum also supporting the concept of Trinity and was told to read them.

Well I am sorry but that sought of reply is not helpful, although I have to say that I did agree entirely with what PaulSacramento wrote in the last post of the last thread you told me to read: http://goo.gl/fBe9rA Thu Oct 17, 2013, PaulSacramento wrote, “for God to be GOD His love had to be the highest form of Love and that is NEVER a self-centered love but a love that gives and sacrifices for others a love focused and centered on others.
Only the Trinity answers that issue
”.

That being said, these questions still remain unanswered, “How can the Son not come from His Father and still be the Father's Son?” “How can any son exist without there first being a father?”



In that same reply that I posted just before Christmas I also explained, “the Son must have come from His Father because they would not have been revealed to us as “Father” and “Son” for nothing”.

A few days later I was banned with no clear answer being given to those questions.


Now that this ban has been lifted I would also like to say that simple logical deductions still keep telling me that the Son must have come from His Father because if the Son did not come from His Father He would not have told us He was the Son of His Father!


Allow me then please, this opportunity to explain what I see God telling us...

Believing that the Son came from His Father does not mean to say the Son was merely the first created being as the JWs and others would have us believe, but rather that the Son was a facsimile of His Father, virtually the same in every way but a new free thinking mind that became another person: the Son of the Father. He came into existence but with no conceivable beginning to our finite minds, He was and is, like His Father but not the same person. Everything about the Father's Son is like His Father except the Father existed before His Son and was the Father of His Son. Although they are virtually identical they are two free thinking persons who, because of their pure and perfect love for each other, created everything that has ever been created, instilling their Spirit of free and perfect love into all who they created.

In the beginning was the Word” (The Son first existed only in the thoughts of His Father.), “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (This Word of the Father became a facsimile of the Father, not a creation as such but another part of the Father, a new free thinking mind with no conceivable beginning to our finite minds. This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son.) “He was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him,” (through the Father and the Son's love for each other they began creating everything.) “without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3.

In the beginning before anything was made, the Son was, as the Nicene Creed also explains: “begotten, not made”, having no conceivable beginning to our finite minds.

The Father and the Son's love is what governs creation, “God is love” as Scripture clearly proclaims and this God governs creation. This God would not exist without the Son, and the Son would not exist without the Father. Such is the Triune God of reason who has no conceivable beginning to our finite minds. It is this eternal God who created everything.

On the other hand, to believe that the Son never came from His Father before all things were made is, as far as I see, illogical unreasonable nonsense.

I must therefore ask again: “How can the Son not come from His Father and still be the Father's Son?”

B. W. wrote:Much of what he said is seemingly Gnostic and new age-ish. He constantly demands that we define what we believe and when he did, he either ignored this, or chooses not to read it. Oldman's comments serve as a testament of a spiritually oppressed person bound to spirit guides. Some people may have never encounter this before so let this thread serve as a learning ground. There are people, as the bible says, taken captive to do the devils will, who often come as angels of light, in order to deceive and entrap. They do speak great swelling words of emptiness too.

The bible, as shown on this thread, indeed mentions that the true Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus and glorifies him. When someone comes along, saying they have a holy spirit that does not do this, rest assured you are dealing with someone bound to spirit guides or worse. From what oldman has written, my prayer is that you see this.

Now for oldman, as I stated I would, would like to have anyone willing reading this join and agree with me in a short prayer for him:


Heavenly Father, we thank you for writing our names in the book of life, granting us authority to bear your name and walk as you being your hands, feet, your body on earth to tell good news to those afflicted, to heal the brokenhearted, to speak forth liberty to those held captive to tragic thoughts, and freedom to those held prisoner to bondages. We thank you for your ability at work in us to be able to proclaim the liberating gospel and proclaim the the reason why you disapprove of certain things clearly for there will be a day of your vengeance. We thank you for instructing us on how to bring comfort to those who mourn over the errors of their ways and how to turn sadness of loss into gladness and a garland of victory in Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. We thank you for teaching us to praise instead of faint and lose heart when we see those around choose to walk according to the ways of ruin. We thank you, for making us solid, like oaks to show case your righteousness alone and not our own personal ideas of it. We thank you for granting us the authority to rebuild from the ruins your Kingdom on earth where ever you have assigned us.

We lift up oldman according to your authority, and ask you to set him free from the deceptions of his spirit guides. Lead him to grow weary of these and wake him up to the ruin they will lead him too so that oldman can repent and turn to you alone. We ask that you keep after him, make his life miserable in order to wake him up to his deceptions because he cannot see how he will be held to account for deceiving many to follow his ways. He has given himself over to spiritual paths, not ordained by you but to those ways condemned by you and is heading for a fearful day of judgment. We ask you Lord to spare him this, and begin the process in oldman's life by which he repents and returns to You, you alone. Release your ministering angels to do battle on your behalf for him so his life be spared all at you command as you know best. Heavenly Father, we thank you for permitting oldman to come here and we know, as it is written, that you do not desire to lose anyone, and sent forth Messiah Yeshua, for that purpose, you know who will make it and who will not. Those things we don't know, but oldman came here and we did our duty to reach out in true love and true love is often tuff, in order to set the captive free. So according to your will, we plead for oldman's complete salvation at your appointed time.

In Jesus name. Amen




Please, if you really do want to help me then don't just reply to my questions with articles by other people or with links to old discussions, or with Bible references that do nothing to prove my understanding of God is wrong. If you really do care to help me then give me clear answers to my questions in your own words. By all means use Scripture but please carefully explain in your own words why any particular verse or verses in the Bible cause you to believe as you do. Then shall the truth be revealed more clearly here for us all to see.


How can the Son not come from His Father and still be His Son?
How can any son exist without there first being a father?



Now further to what you wrote concerning cannabis:

B. W. wrote:Next, while cannabis can or may have some medical value etc, however, when used to increase ones spirituality, that medical value falls to the wayside. Such use is classed in the bible, as forbidden due to the conjuring nature of inviting spirits (demonic) into a person's life. Such drugs were used in the past for that purpose. Let me state that the Lord himself, would not induce someone to use cannabis (or alcohol, meth, etc) in order to grow one's spirituality toward himself.


Let me state that the Lord Himself, reveals Himself to whoever He so wills, whenever He so wills, in whatever measure He so wills, irrespective of the culture a person happens to be involved in at the time.


Now let me clear up any misunderstanding there might be in what I wrote concerning cannabis...

I never said that cannabis must be used in order to have a saving knowledge of God. What I remember happening is that sometime in the early part of 1986, when deeply under the influence of cannabis, I came to realise how lost I was and that I did not know who or what to believe in. Even when the effects of cannabis had worn off I could still see how hopelessly lost and double minded I was. A determination then started growing within me to look and find out for myself whether or not the God I was told to believe in when I was a child really existed. It was this growing determination that eventually moved me to find my old Gideon's Bible given to me when I left school and to start reading the Gospel of Matthew from the beginning through to the end. I decided if this Christian God was real then I would find Him there, and if there was no convincing evidence of Him there would be no such God. As I recall, this search got under way some time in the spring or summer of 1986, and starting very slowly I would read just a few verses at a time with days and often weeks passing between each reading. As the months went by and the more I read, the more I found myself becoming fascinated by it, not least because I believed I was sensing something of God, more so when I studied it under the influence of cannabis. By the time I had finished it in late January 1987, even though I still had some very hard lessons to learn about my deceiving fallen nature, I had become convinced of the reality of God. From that time on I have remained convinced of this reality whether under the influence of cannabis or not under the influence of cannabis.

I do not believe cannabis is needed to have a saving knowledge of God. I do however believe that God must have ultimately led me to use cannabis for He is ultimately sovereign over all and I know that during and after using cannabis (only as I have described in my opening post http://goo.gl/mXivMZ ) I am able to reason and perceive more, this is a fact of life I cannot ignore. Having said that though, I also know the time must be fast approaching when cannabis will no longer be needed to enhance my thought process: I will be filled with God when my thoughts are governed entirely by the only reasonable Spirit of truth. Then I will be perfect like the God of reason and truth is perfect, He does not need cannabis in order to see and perceive more freely and more clearly, and neither shall I.

B. W. wrote:The bible is clear - Jesus is the only way to the Father - there are no other ways, no matter how presented. Any other way would be classed as breaking the first two of the Ten Commandants and setting up an idol to serve.

Yes, I agree. I don't recall saying anything to the contrary, so where exactly in this discussion do you think I have denied Jesus is the only way to the Father?

What I have written here is the truth, and the truth is all I believe I have witnessed and all that logic and reason tell me. God is the author of our destinies and whether you like it or not, He has led me through this life in the way He has seen best. Along this way He has revealed to me the meaning of good and evil. He has taught me just how deceiving our fallen nature can be and the suffering we all must endure because of it. He has shown me why we are so easily deceived by evil. He has taught me the difference between good and evil whilst showing me the only way to overcome evil, and I am now free to choose between the two.

By what we choose we must be saved or condemned.

For those who know the revealed Spirit of truth and take pleasure in grieving and offending this Spirit there is no hope, it would be better for them to have large millstones hung round their necks and be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matthew 18:6.

“every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” Matthew 12:31-32


What I must ask you now then B.W. is this, do you have faith in this Spirit...


The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and the Son came their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.


...or do you really still believe my understanding of the Triune God is a work of evil?

Freedom is the freedom to choose

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6011
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 142 times

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#74

Post by Byblos » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:32 am

oldman wrote:Excuse me but I do not deny Jesus is God, neither do I deny the reality of the Trinity. What I do deny however is the idea that Jesus the Son of God, did not come from His Father.
I may have done you a disservice but honestly I simply could not go on reading after I came across what you wrote above. That one small paragraph speaks volumes on the state of confusion you're in (and I am making no claims as to its cause). It is so full of contradictions from all sides, philosophical, theological, basic logic that I don't even know where to begin. But I will try anyway. So you believe God is eternal, you believe Jesus is God, and yet you believe Jesus came from the Father. Could you explain that in a more coherent way how an eternal being could come to be?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

oldman
Established Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:01 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Abthorpe
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#75

Post by oldman » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:02 am

Byblos wrote:
oldman wrote:Excuse me but I do not deny Jesus is God, neither do I deny the reality of the Trinity. What I do deny however is the idea that Jesus the Son of God, did not come from His Father.
I may have done you a disservice but honestly I simply could not go on reading after I came across what you wrote above. That one small paragraph speaks volumes on the state of confusion you're in (and I am making no claims as to its cause). It is so full of contradictions from all sides, philosophical, theological, basic logic that I don't even know where to begin. But I will try anyway. So you believe God is eternal, you believe Jesus is God, and yet you believe Jesus came from the Father. Could you explain that in a more coherent way how an eternal being could come to be?
Byblos, if you cannot read beyond what I wrote in that small paragraph then you will never understand the truth... will you?

Post Reply