Reason to believe (The learning version)

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
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domokunrox
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Reason to believe (The learning version)

#1

Post by domokunrox » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:33 am

I'm going to replicate the previous thread for the purpose of LEARNING how to pinpoint such a ridiculous claim.

I'm going to replace the substance with crystal meth and underline what was NEEDED to be read. My objections in bold.
The following is a brief history of how I came to be as I am now and I would very much like to start sharing this story with you if I may. I thought maybe I ought to open this post in “Christian Testimonies”, but decided “Philosophical Discussions” would be more appropriate. When you read this post I think you will agree. Some Christians might find what I have written here offensive, but even so it is the truth, and the truth as far as I can see is all I believe I have witnessed and all that logic and reason tell me. (Key words being logic and reason. Supposedly, the claim has was reached by logic and reason)

I will start then by first explaining that it was by experience that I came to know what many professors of psychology and psychiatry keep trying to warn others about: Crystal meth can and often does cause (list of bad effects on you). However, what many of these professors seem unable to understand and acknowledge is that there is also a very positive side to crystal meth. (positive side for what? show me how its necessarily connected to something good)

From my experience, during the 8 hours (time is arbitrary) when the desired effect of crystal meth has started to work and when taken in reasonable moderation, (without alcohol, tobacco or any other drug or chemical, or person for that matter, that can so easily inhibit the ability of crystal meth to raise one's awareness to higher levels) (so what?) not only does it become obvious that the senses become so much more improved (contradiction of list of bad effects) and the mind so much more relaxed (contradiction of list of bad effects), but it also becomes clear that one can see and reason so much more as well. (contradicts list of bad effects) Added to this, the values that were indoctrinated into us from childhood which cause us to react as we do to certain situations and problems, no longer have the same hold over us, this in itself can be dangerous but it can also be a very good thing: (contradicts itself)

Being under the influence of crystal meth as I have just described, allows me to think and reason more deeply, vividly and freely (contradiction of list of bad effects), without the dominating views and prejudices of others who throughout history have largely controlled what men should think and perceive is the truth (Begging the question. Assumes the view is false). Even so, I also know that cannabis can be extremely dangerous at times. (No kidding? Thats why God wouldn't approve for you to use the substance)

Here then is the story, or part of the story of my search to know the truth and how I came to be as I am now...

Although I started using crystal meth in 1969, as far as I recall it wasn't until late 1985 or early 1986 that I began to see that when taking crystal meth without any other stimulus, (who cares? you just admitted that crystal meth has NO POWER in its use) the more I was becoming aware that I was able to perceive more and think more freely and independently. I also remember how fascinated I became as new avenues of thought would keep opening up to me in ways I had not experienced before. (Can anyone take a guess what this "new avenue of thought" is?)

Before I go any further I should point out that because of world and family indoctrination, by the time I had reached my mid to late teens Darwinism and National Socialism had become firmly entrenched in my psyche, together with a very limited knowledge of Christianity. (So what?) These indoctrinated views and influences then greatly controlled my behaviour and ways of thinking, steering my thoughts and actions in various ways for at least another two decades. Then in the early part of 1986 I came to a full understanding of what it really means to be deeply under the influence of crystal meth with no alcohol, tobacco or anything else that does so easily deny or ruin the overall positive effect which can be obtained during the first few hours (Contradicts list of bad effects) and it was during one of these periods that I became entranced when I began to see quite clearly my thought process at work: (Uh, hello? This doesn't alarm anyone?)

As computers stored and retrieved information, so I began to see more and more clearly a part of my own mind working in a similar but far more interesting way. As time seemed to slow down (Hello? Hallucination here. Deception at work.) I became very much aware of my nerves conveying what they were sensing to my memory where this new information was being stored for later use. I could see that much of this new information was also being used in whatever thought process was in progress at the time the information came in. I could also plainly see that my thought process was largely made up from my memory constantly being scanned for relative or useful information that could be added to whatever the innermost ruling part of my conscious self was experiencing or dealing with at the time, and it also became clear that this ongoing process was often being carried out so that I might make the best possible decisions for both my short term and long term feelings of pleasure or ecstasy. (So, this process is for "pleasure and ecstasy", not for rational thought and truth. Got it.)

One evening however, whilst deeply under the influence of crystal meth, I also came to realise that I didn't really know what I believed in. (No kidding?) Suddenly it seemed like there was nothing I could trust in any more. (We can just about call it a day here) Even when the effects of crystal meth had worn off I was still seeing how hopelessly lost and double minded I was, particularly in the things of politics, morality, atheism and religion. I think I may well have remained in that state were it not for the love I had for my two little children who in their times of innocence and naivety would love and trust in me. It was then from that lost state did I become obsessed to know just what the truth was and what or who I and my dear loved ones should prepare to face in the end.

After years of studying and thinking deeply on the subjects of atheism and evolution, cosmology, National Socialism, the prophecies of Nostradamus, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and life in general, it was eventually made very clear to me there was a part of me called pride that had convinced me I was the better man when I compared myself to certain others. This pride was also allowing me and causing me at times to regard those others with disrespect, even contempt. I was also made to see that from such a mindset it was easy for me to dismiss the true word of others as being irrelevant, unimportant or untrue whenever their statements were seen to conflict with any of my own selfish or self-important desires and plans. I did also eventually see that whilst my pride was in control it was easy for me to cheat on and lie to anyone who I did not care for, especially those who I assessed as being less important or inferior to myself. As much as I was ready to ignore the truth and deceive others for my own gain, so I was equally ready to ignore the truth and deceive myself into thinking how good and right I was. I also saw the half-truths and lies of others were easily welcomed by me as absolute truth whenever they had fed and reinforced my feeling of superiority and pleasure. (Hey look! Admitting deception and arrogant pride)

I was also made to see this vain and self deceiving way of thinking was working not only in myself but in those around me also and for as much as our self first desires became our needs so also would our cravings for more leave us more vulnerable and subject to the corruption of those most crafty and evil. Their lies would often become more easily accepted by us as truth and would therefore become easily woven into the memories of our minds that believed in those lies, and it was from our lie infested memories that our deductions, decisions and judgements were being formed. I eventually had to conclude therefore that whatever is being reasoned and perceived as truth and reality to minds corrupted by pride is all too often an illusion. I was also made to see that this state of mind is to some degree the inherited scourge of us all, breeding contempt and hatred for the truth along with paranoia, conflict, killing and destruction, just as the history of man will clearly testify. (Hey look! admitting more deception)


Also, when under the influence of crystal meth, I was made to see that from an atheistic and Darwinian viewpoint, a reasonable concept of God could still be seen. A contradiction in terms you might think, but even so, a reasonable concept nevertheless, and one which I would now like to begin to explain here if I may... (Please do. Please tell us how contradictions are truth. Lookout folks, you're about to hit you with some eastern mysticism)

One day I came to hear that an atheist mathematician (why am I NOT surprised on the origin of this nonsense?) had recently announced a theory of natural repetition that went something like this: When everything that can happen (What is "everything" and why can it happen? This is a fallacious appeal to possibility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability ), i.e. every single permutation of every movement in all matter (matter being something as opposed to nothing) has happened, the only logical thing to happen next would be for everything to start repeating itself, and ultimately, to continually keep repeating itself over and over again add infinitum. (Argument from infinite. Infinity does not exist) This then would include the natural process that started our universe and the following naturally formed evolutionary cycle that produced the intelligent life within it. Even this intelligent life on earth that we now perceive as our own would, sometime in the far distant future, be repeated, and not just once, but over and over again. So the theory goes. (Nope. It doesn't happen)


What is more, so I was told: Even though the time span between the cycle that produced us now and the repeated cycle that would eventually produce us again in that far distant future might look like bordering on the infinite, it would still only seem like an instant between our loss of consciousness at death, and our regained consciousness through the rebirth of our naturally repeated evolved lives in the future. This is because only the time registered in the consciousness would be recorded and therefore known... so the theory goes. (Its garbage. Next!)

Now the point I am coming to is this: When we apply this theory of natural repetition to our universe, (which is largely believed by many scientists to be a rapidly expanding 'bubble' billions of light years across and which started from an incredibly small point some 10-20 billion years ago) we can also very easily arrive at a completely different and infinitely more interesting conclusion that goes way beyond the original idea of a naturally repeating eternity of endless births, deaths and rebirths, but first we must consider the following...(Its still garbage)

If our universe, as some would have us believe, could be the first one or one of a finite number capable of starting and supporting evolved intelligent life, then it would mean that as time has advanced so the variation in the movement of matter would have increased. In which case then, if we were to trace time back we would have to witness a decrease in that variation. If we were to trace time back far enough then we would have to come to a point of absolute zero movement in all matter, and that would result in a physical impossibility for any movement to begin. The only logical way out of this would be that our universe cannot be the first one or one of a finite number but instead must be one in an infinite number (from an atheistic point of view). Some atheist scientists though have also argued that our universe could have started from nothing by way of a “quantum fluctuation”, but even if this was true it would still logically follow that if nothing was responsible for starting this rapidly expanding 'bubble' we call our universe, then wherever there was nothing there would be countless universes about to be formed, being formed and already formed. In other words, it would have been impossible for nothing to have existed without already producing a mass of countless expanding (and possibly contracting) 'bubbles', similar to the one we presently call our universe. In which case, we would still be in the realms of "natural repetition". (from an atheistic point of view) (Yeah, complete garbage. Next!)

This in turn then would mean that evolved intelligent life in one form or another would not only have already strived an infinite number of times to understand, create and control whatever it so willed but would already have had an infinite period of time in which to do it in. Whatever kind or form of evolutionary cycle that would have produced this almighty free thinking God of reason then could also be seen to be the origins of God and therefore also a part of God. (Nope, you are completely off the rails here) So even from an atheistic point of view I was able to see what could be described as a reasonable concept of an eternal infinite all knowing all powerful God who came into existence but with out a conceivable beginning to the finite mind of man... if you see what I mean. (I do. Its garbage and off the rails. We aren't even talking about the same thing anymore. This WHOLE thing is a non sequitur on top of another non sequitur)


Having been given this atheistic view of God then, and having seen how pride corrupts our ability to reason correctly and deny us the ability to form trustworthy conclusions, I was eventually made to see very clearly (partly under the influence of crystal meth) that before any of us can be sure we are living by the truth we must first be sure the cause of living by lies and delusion has been completely removed from us (So somehow the use of crystal meth is an exception from being the cause of lies and delusion? No logical explanation at all? Just begging the question? Got it) I came to see also that this removal can be achieved but only when we are living faithfully by these two commandments: (Here comes the non sequitur)

In Mark 12:28-31 it is written, And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
[As far as I can see, from an atheistic point of view, the nearest equivalent to that commandment would go something like this, “always love and value that which produced you: the human race, above your self and above all things at all costs”]
The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Simple logical deductions showed me and continue to show me (Which ones?! I didn't see any logical deductions made. Did anyone see it? I didn't) that only by valuing these two commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences that would have us place an inferior value to ourselves on others, shall we ever find no reason to deceive and offend anyone. Simple logical deductions also show me (Which ones? I didn't see any made) that only by truly valuing the man who first gave us these greatest of all commandments, above all other men and gods, shall I seriously value His commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences also; and only by living always by His two greatest commandments shall I find no reason to deceive and offend anyone including myself. (Nope. We got an anti christ doctrine attempting to assimilate the words of Christ to appear legitimate. Not the first time, and won't be the last time its ever happened)


Only the faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.
All who have faith in this Spirit will have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar. (Jesus didn't lie, but YOU clearly are)


So the question I must ask you now is this, how can I not believe it was a good thing for me to use crystal meth? (Easy, your reasoning for the use of crystal meth is a non sequitur. That is a fallacy.)

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#2

Post by oldman » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:30 am

It is now clear why the mods tolerate you here domokunrox, you are so much alike. This place is a nest of vipers.

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#3

Post by Byblos » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:00 am

oldman wrote:It is now clear why the mods tolerate you here domokunrox, you are so much alike. This place is a nest of vipers.
Come on oldman, try to chill. Smoke a joint, you may see it in a whole new light :mrgreen: .
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#4

Post by oldman » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:07 am

with or without cannabis, the truth is still the same to me

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#5

Post by RickD » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:48 am

Byblos wrote:
oldman wrote:It is now clear why the mods tolerate you here domokunrox, you are so much alike. This place is a nest of vipers.
Come on oldman, try to chill. Smoke a joint, you may see it in a whole new light :mrgreen: .
Byblos,
Oldman doesn't smoke marijuana anymore. He eats it. He has to eat it in order to justify his cannabis god with misinterpreted scripture like this:
Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;” Genesis 1:29

Oldman,

Have you tried eating the castor plant, that according to your argument, God gave you to eat? You know the castor plant is poisonous, so don't you see that there's a chance that God didn't mean for us to eat all plants? And if there's at least one plant that we shouldn't eat, there goes your Genesis 1:29 argument. And there goes your biblical justification for eating cannabis.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#6

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:50 pm

on Cannabis from wiki for a quick reference to the con's and pros of its use...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_cannabis

The effects of cannabis are caused by chemical compounds in cannabis, including cannabinoids such as tetrahydrocannabinol (THC). Cannabis has both psychological and physiological effects on the human body. Five European countries, Canada, and twenty US states[1] have legalized medical cannabis if prescribed for nausea, pain or the alleviation of symptoms surrounding chronic illness.[citation needed]
In large enough doses, THC can induce auditory and visual hallucination. Acute effects while under the influence can include both euphoria and anxiety.[2][3] Concerns have been raised about the potential for long-term cannabis consumption to increase risk for schizophrenia, depersonalization disorder, bipolar disorders, and major depression, however studies are inconclusive [4][5] and the ultimate conclusions on these factors are disputed....

Memory and learning

Studies on cannabis and memory are hindered by small sample sizes, confounding drug use, and other factors.[80] The strongest evidence regarding cannabis and memory focuses on its temporary negative effects on short-term and working memory.[11]

In a 2001 study looking at neuropsychological performance in long-term cannabis users, researchers found "some cognitive deficits appear detectable at least 7 days after heavy cannabis use but appear reversible and related to recent cannabis exposure rather than irreversible and related to cumulative lifetime use".[81] On his studies regarding cannabis use, lead researcher and Harvard professor Harrison Pope said he found marijuana is not dangerous over the long term, but there are short-term effects. From neuropsychological tests, Pope found that chronic cannabis users showed difficulties, with verbal memory in particular, for "at least a week or two" after they stopped smoking. Within 28 days, memory problems vanished and the subjects “were no longer distinguishable from the comparison group”.[82]

Researchers from the University of California, San Diego School of Medicine failed to show substantial, systemic neurological effects from long-term recreational use of cannabis. Their findings were published in the July 2003 issue of the Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society.[83] The research team, headed by Dr Igor Grant, found that cannabis use did affect perception, but did not cause permanent brain damage. Researchers looked at data from 15 previously published controlled studies involving 704 long-term cannabis users and 484 nonusers. The results showed long-term cannabis use was only marginally harmful on the memory and learning. Other functions such as reaction time, attention, language, reasoning ability, perceptual and motor skills were unaffected. The observed effects on memory and learning, they said, showed long-term cannabis use caused "selective memory defects", but that the impact was "of a very small magnitude".[84] A study at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine showed that very heavy use of marijuana is associated with decrements in neurocognitive performance even after 28 days of abstinence.[85]
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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#7

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:28 pm

oldman wrote:It is now clear why the mods tolerate you here domokunrox, you are so much alike. This place is a nest of vipers.

I don't think that is a very nice thing to say about your brothers and sisters.

Peace be with you y@};-
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#8

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:18 pm

More from a more reputable medical source than wiki...quoted below...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24001294

Curr Pharm Des. 2013 Aug 29.

Acute and Long-Term Effects of Cannabis Use : A Review.

Karila L, Roux P, Rolland B, Benyamina A, Reynaud M, Aubin HJ, Lançon C.

Source

Addiction Research and Treatment Center, Paul Brousse Hospital, 12 avenue Paul Vaillant Couturier, Villejuif 94800, France. Laurent.karila@pbr.aphp.fr.

Abstract

Cannabis remains the most commonly used and trafficked illicit drug in the world. Its use is largely concentrated among young people (15- to 34-year-olds). There is a variety of cannabis use patterns, ranging from experimental use to dependent use. Men are more likely than women to report both early initiation and frequent use of cannabis. Due to the high prevalence of cannabis use, the impact of cannabis on public health may be significant. A range of acute and chronic health problems associated with cannabis use has been identified. Cannabis can frequently have negative effects in its users, which may be amplified by certain demographic and/or psychosocial factors. Acute adverse effects include hyperemesis syndrome, impaired coordination and performance, anxiety, suicidal ideations/tendencies, and psychotic symptoms. Acute cannabis consumption is also associated with an increased risk of motor vehicle crashes, especially fatal collisions. Evidence indicates that frequent and prolonged use of cannabis can be detrimental to both mental and physical health. Chronic effects of cannabis use include mood disorders, exacerbation of psychotic disorders in vulnerable people, cannabis use disorders, withdrawal syndrome, neurocognitive impairments, cardiovascular and respiratory and other diseases.
This next link from London UK provides an interesting read:

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandevent ... 3-11-49-21

And this next one as well too..

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 091401.htm
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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#9

Post by 1over137 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:55 pm

Thanks B.W. for the links. I am glad oldman is no more taking it.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#10

Post by oldman » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:24 am

RickD wrote:Byblos,
Oldman doesn't smoke marijuana anymore. He eats it. He has to eat it in order to justify his cannabis god with misinterpreted scripture like this:
That is another lie. My God is the God of reason and truth who created everything including cannabis for man to eat if he so desired.
RickD wrote:Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;” Genesis 1:29

Oldman,

Have you tried eating the castor plant, that according to your argument, God gave you to eat? You know the castor plant is poisonous, so don't you see that there's a chance that God didn't mean for us to eat all plants? And if there's at least one plant that we shouldn't eat, there goes your Genesis 1:29 argument. And there goes your biblical justification for eating cannabis.

When man was perfect, before the Spirit of truth in him was confounded and corrupted into something evil by his desire to know evil and gain wisdom, he was clearly told by God that he could eat “every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth” ..."They will be yours for food"! How anyone can misinterpret that statement is beyond me. None are so blind as those who cannot see. Anyway, Adam was also told that he must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that on the day that he eats from it he will surely die. Had he not given into temptation and eaten the forbidden fruit then nothing, including the castor plant would have been able to harm him.

If God cares to make a man perfect again then that man will be made perfect again, and when he is made perfect nothing will be able to harm him including that which is poisonous to him now... unless of course he would be so stupid as to desire evil again and kill off the Spirit of truth in himself once more... but I can't see that happening somehow.

The point I am coming to then is this: Eating cannabis whether one believes they are justified to do so by Genesis 1:29 or not, (as in the case of your unbelieving soul) when used with care is mind expanding.

Can you see now or are you still blind? ...or are you really as I first suspected, some one who sees but hates the truth, especially when it is the written word of God staring them in the face?



When the Lord Jesus is in control the truth is always the same, with or without the moderate use of cannabis. The only difference being, cannabis can give a greater perspective of the truth. I have faith in reason, my God is the God of reason for we exist only by reason.

I am sorry that you, like so many others still cannot say the same. Whoever ignores and rejects reason becomes a slave to bigotry and an imitator of the beast.

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#11

Post by 1over137 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:32 am

when used with care
What does that mean? Where is the line? Have you seen B.W.'s links above?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#12

Post by RickD » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:33 am

oldman wrote:
If God cares to make a man perfect again then that man will be made perfect again, and when he is made perfect nothing will be able to harm him including that which is poisonous to him now... unless of course he would be so stupid as to desire evil again and kill off the Spirit of truth in himself once more... but I can't see that happening somehow.
Oldman,

The problem with what you said, is that only when a believer is "in" his new resurrected body, will he be "perfect" as you say, or incorruptible. So, poisonous plants won't even be an issue at that point. And if I have the Spirit of Truth(The Holy Spirit) inside me, He cannot be "killed off". The Holy Spirit is God, and cannot be killed off. And furthermore, God promises that He will never leave me nor forsake me. So, it's clear to me that you are talking about another spirit.
When man was perfect, before the Spirit of truth in him was confounded and corrupted into something evil by his desire to know evil and gain wisdom, he was clearly told by God that he could eat “every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth” ..."They will be yours for food"! How anyone can misinterpret that statement is beyond me. None are so blind as those who cannot see. Anyway, Adam was also told that he must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that on the day that he eats from it he will surely die. Had he not given into temptation and eaten the forbidden fruit then nothing, including the castor plant would have been able to harm him.
You're assuming there were harmful plants in the garden of Eden? Where in scripture do you get that idea?
The point I am coming to then is this: Eating cannabis whether one believes they are justified to do so by Genesis 1:29 or not, (as in the case of your unbelieving soul) when used with care is mind expanding.

Can you see now or are you still blind? ...or are you really as I first suspected, some one who sees but hates the truth, especially when it is the written word of God staring them in the face?
I have no doubt that eating or smoking pot is mind altering. And by eating it, you are opening yourself up to deceiving spirits.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#13

Post by oldman » Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:17 am

RickD wrote:Oldman,

The problem with what you said, is that only when a believer is "in" his new resurrected body, will he be "perfect" as you say, or incorruptible. So, poisonous plants won't even be an issue at that point. And if I have the Spirit of Truth(The Holy Spirit) inside me, He cannot be "killed off".



Didn't you know that Adam was made in God's image with the Spirit of truth being the heart of his nature?

On the day Adam listened to Satan and desired a greater wisdom, and ate the forbidden fruit there was a very obvious instant death in Adam. The perfect Spirit of truth, sovereign in the then perfect Adam, became corrupted into a spirit of lies and rebellion against his Father. The pure and perfect Spirit that was the innermost ruling character in Adam was now dead in Adam, and this spiritual death was followed many years later by Adam's physical death.


I have the Spirit of Truth (The Holy Spirit) inside me and one of the reasons why He will never be "killed off" in me is because I now know where the road of pride and rebellion leads...

God's will means nothing if it is not free and from free will came evil. Love is good and without free will, love, especially the Spirit of pure and perfect love revealed through the life and death of the Lord Jesus, would mean nothing. The Spirit of truth means nothing without free will and it was through free will and a natural desire to experience the fascinating unknown that eventually allowed pride (remember pride?) and rebellion to bring into existence the first mind of evil. The Father's Spirit means nothing without free will and from free will and from pride and rebellion was born the spirit of lies. It was through an unavoidable and disastrous misuse of free will did a free and perfect member of creation degenerate into a corruption beyond help, seducing and taking so many others with him, putting to death the Spirit of truth in them forever. Thus the once perfect member of creation who is now known as Satan, did establish the way of the damned.

Rebellion can be an experience of ultimate freedom, be it against good or be it against evil; and rebelling against truth can reap an irrational extreme pleasure as self control is abandoned and the self and others are offended. This is what Satan and his followers would have discovered. Worse still, there was absolutely nothing to stop them from degenerating beyond hope. When evil first came into existence it threatened the very existence of creation; and if so many of God's free and perfect children became corrupted into a hopeless demonic state once, then with no remedial action that same process which led to ultimate evil could just as easily happen again and again for as long as creation continued or until it was no more. Unless God moved with all wisdom and justice to prevent this from happening again, the perfect paradise born from the Father of free will would cease to exist. Evil would remain a very real threat to every new and glorious creation, and perfect joy would be no more.

What then must be done in order to save creation from such an endless nightmare?

One sure remedy is to allow those hopeless devils of ultimate evil who know and hate what is good to run their course of corruption and deceit in a perfectly created finite arena called "the world". There let their endless needs and cravings to corrupt and destroy what is good be so fulfilled that they reach their self-inflicted state of hell on earth. Then shall the undeniable reality of their torments and justified condemnation, together with the unique lessons learnt by the redeemed, forever serve as a reminder and a warning to every new born free and perfect mind of reason never to venture down that insane road of pride and rebellion again.

After the great tribulation when evil has been allowed to run it's course and reach it's climax on earth, and after the final judgement has been made and the last sentence has been passed, then shall all creation forever know exactly where the road of pride and rebellion leads.

The lake of fire where death and torment reign forever, will serve forever as the ultimate warning, showing what will happen to anyone who would be so foolish as to desire the way of the damned again and then to allow that desire to grow and bear fruit.

The degrees of condemnation will be justified and will forever be seen by all reasoning minds to be justified, the possibility of any more threats to God and paradise will therefore be removed forever.



Can you see now why the Holy Spirit of truth, will never be corrupted into something evil in any of the Father's children again?

RickD wrote:The Holy Spirit is God, and cannot be killed off. And furthermore, God promises that He will never leave me nor forsake me. So, it's clear to me that you are talking about another spirit.

A Spirit different to the one you worship? Yes, you have no rational alternative to the revealed Spirit of truth. You believe in what you cannot explain and expect to be taken seriously.


There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (1John 4:18).

May those of us then who will be saved, who are being saved and who are saved, soon be made perfect in the Spirit of perfect love.

We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is no longer threatened or offended there is endless joy in free and endless creation.

The alternative is sure and certain everlasting destruction in the lake of fire.


If you must find my God offensive I don't condemn you, by reason you condemn yourself.

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#14

Post by 1over137 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:08 am

I am being ignored in this thread.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Reason to believe (The learning version)

#15

Post by B. W. » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:16 am

1over137 wrote:I am being ignored in this thread.
I think so...

...Must be a memory issue or something of that nature

:donotbesad:
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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