Morality Without God?

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Re: Morality Without God?

#361

Post by Butterfly » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:53 am

jlay wrote:Of course i read it. I'm responding to it.
The reason I asked is because of your questions, which Spock covered in his article.

Where does the GR exist, objectively? The GR is objective, because its value exists independent of an individual.

It's ontology? To know the ontology of the GR we must first understand it epistemology (knowing why it is right or wrong). So, how do we know something is moral? By using our moral intuitions, which are grounded in the GR

What is it's source? The source of the GR is our moral intuitions, which arise from the self aware nature of humans.
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Re: Morality Without God?

#362

Post by jlay » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:58 am

Question begging. Circular
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Morality Without God?

#363

Post by Beanybag » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:59 am

Butterfly wrote:Where does the GR exist, objectively? The GR is objective, because its value exists independent of an individual.

What is it's source? The source of the GR is our moral intuitions, which arise from the self aware nature of humans.
This seems contradictory. By what can you assert that it exists outside of humans?

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Re: Morality Without God?

#364

Post by RickD » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:05 am

Where does the GR exist, objectively? The GR is objective, because its value exists independent of an individual.
What is it's source? The source of the GR is our moral intuitions, which arise from the self aware nature of humans.
I may be stupid, but I'm not dumb. The GR exists independent of an individual. On the other hand, the source of the GR arises from the nature of humans. That must not really be your argument. Please rephrase it so it's not circular.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Morality Without God?

#365

Post by Butterfly » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:53 am

RickD wrote:
Butterfly wrote:Where does the GR exist, objectively? The GR is objective, because its value exists independent of an individual.
Butterfly wrote:What is it's source? The source of the GR is our moral intuitions, which arise from the self aware nature of humans.
I may be stupid, but I'm not dumb. The GR exists independent of an individual. On the other hand, the source of the GR arises from the nature of humans. That must not really be your argument. Please rephrase it so it's not circular.
Notice that I said it is the VALUE of the GR that exists independent of a single individual. The idea of treating others as you wish to be treated arises from our moral intuitions because we are self aware, what gives it objective value is the fact that all rational humans share this moral principle.
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Re: Morality Without God?

#366

Post by RickD » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:06 pm

Please bear with me as I try to understand this.
The idea of treating others as you wish to be treated arises from our moral intuitions because we are self aware, what gives it objective value is the fact that all rational humans share this moral principle.
Where has it been proven that all rational humans share the GR? Aren't you basing your argument on your own assumption, that the GR is shared by all rational humans?

Going by this definition of objective:
Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Even if you could prove(which you haven't) that all rational humans share the moral principle(GR), wouldn't you then have prove that all rational humans share the GR for a reason other than personal feelings or opinion?

From the perspective of all rational humans on the surface of the earth, the sun gives off heat.(assumption). The sun gives off heat because of nuclear fusion, not because all rational humans feel its heat.

Excuse me if this seems too simple for you intelligent folk. I'm trying to understand your argument on my own level. y:-/
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Morality Without God?

#367

Post by Butterfly » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:29 pm

RickD wrote:Please bear with me as I try to understand this.
Butterfly wrote:The idea of treating others as you wish to be treated arises from our moral intuitions because we are self aware, what gives it objective value is the fact that all rational humans share this moral principle.
Where has it been proven that all rational humans share the GR? Aren't you basing your argument on your own assumption, that the GR is shared by all rational humans?
Let's start with you. Do you think the GR has value?

Does anyone you know think there is no value in treating others in the manner in which they wish to be treated?
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Re: Morality Without God?

#368

Post by B. W. » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:35 pm

Butterfly wrote:
RickD wrote:Please bear with me as I try to understand this.
Butterfly wrote:The idea of treating others as you wish to be treated arises from our moral intuitions because we are self aware, what gives it objective value is the fact that all rational humans share this moral principle.
Where has it been proven that all rational humans share the GR? Aren't you basing your argument on your own assumption, that the GR is shared by all rational humans?
Let's start with you. Do you think the GR has value?

Does anyone you know think there is no value in treating others in the manner in which they wish to be treated?
Good question to ask a Muslim Islamist - they'd say yes, then force you to convert or die and thus butterfly effect ceases...
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Re: Morality Without God?

#369

Post by Butterfly » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:44 pm

RickD wrote:
Going by this definition of objective:
Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Even if you could prove(which you haven't) that all rational humans share the moral principle(GR), wouldn't you then have prove that all rational humans share the GR for a reason other than personal feelings or opinion?

From the perspective of all rational humans on the surface of the earth, the sun gives off heat.(assumption). The sun gives off heat because of nuclear fusion, not because all rational humans feel its heat.

Excuse me if this seems too simple for you intelligent folk. I'm trying to understand your argument on my own level. y:-/
You added the second part after I answered the first part, so here's an answer to the second part of your post.

The sun gives heat because of nuclear fusion, but the reason we feel heat is because we are living beings that have sensory nerves. The reason the GR has value is because it is meaningful to humans, not because of a moral law giver.
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Re: Morality Without God?

#370

Post by RickD » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:46 pm

Butterfly wrote:
RickD wrote:Please bear with me as I try to understand this.
Butterfly wrote:The idea of treating others as you wish to be treated arises from our moral intuitions because we are self aware, what gives it objective value is the fact that all rational humans share this moral principle.
Where has it been proven that all rational humans share the GR? Aren't you basing your argument on your own assumption, that the GR is shared by all rational humans?
Let's start with you. Do you think the GR has value?

Does anyone you know think there is no value in treating others in the manner in which they wish to be treated?
-
y@};-
Of course it is my opinion that the Golden Rule has value.

And, I would have no way of knowing for sure that everyone I know, not to mention every rational human, believes in the GR.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Morality Without God?

#371

Post by Butterfly » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:46 pm

B. W. wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
RickD wrote:Please bear with me as I try to understand this.
Butterfly wrote:The idea of treating others as you wish to be treated arises from our moral intuitions because we are self aware, what gives it objective value is the fact that all rational humans share this moral principle.
Where has it been proven that all rational humans share the GR? Aren't you basing your argument on your own assumption, that the GR is shared by all rational humans?
Let's start with you. Do you think the GR has value?

Does anyone you know think there is no value in treating others in the manner in which they wish to be treated?
Good question to ask a Muslim Islamist - they'd say yes, then force you to convert or die and thus butterfly effect ceases...
-
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:crying:
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y@};-
A small flutter of butterfly wings, causes a great disturbance...

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Re: Morality Without God?

#372

Post by Butterfly » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:50 pm

RickD wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
RickD wrote:Please bear with me as I try to understand this.
Butterfly wrote:The idea of treating others as you wish to be treated arises from our moral intuitions because we are self aware, what gives it objective value is the fact that all rational humans share this moral principle.
Where has it been proven that all rational humans share the GR? Aren't you basing your argument on your own assumption, that the GR is shared by all rational humans?
Let's start with you. Do you think the GR has value?

Does anyone you know think there is no value in treating others in the manner in which they wish to be treated?
-
y@};-
Of course it is my opinion that the Golden Rule has value.

And, I would have no way of knowing for sure that everyone I know, not to mention every rational human, believes in the GR.
Remember I said: "Believes the GR has VALUE".
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Re: Morality Without God?

#373

Post by RickD » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:55 pm

Butterfly wrote:
The sun gives heat because of nuclear fusion, but the reason we feel heat is because we are living beings that have sensory nerves. The reason the GR has value is because it is meaningful to humans, not because of a moral law giver.
Whose side are you on, Rose? You're making an argument here for the GR being subjective. :lol:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Morality Without God?

#374

Post by B. W. » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:58 pm

Butterfly wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
RickD wrote:Please bear with me as I try to understand this.
Butterfly wrote:The idea of treating others as you wish to be treated arises from our moral intuitions because we are self aware, what gives it objective value is the fact that all rational humans share this moral principle.
Where has it been proven that all rational humans share the GR? Aren't you basing your argument on your own assumption, that the GR is shared by all rational humans?
Let's start with you. Do you think the GR has value?

Does anyone you know think there is no value in treating others in the manner in which they wish to be treated?
Good question to ask a Muslim Islamist - they'd say yes, then force you to convert or die and thus butterfly effect ceases...
-
-
-
:crying:

We all cry with you too –

I cried after seeing the planes slam into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and flight 93 crash 9/11

I wept when Fort Hood happened…

Now 4 more have died

Truth is truth – the GR only serves to point out and prove none-can live up that standard even the GR we create ourselves…

Why do Muslims Islamist wear a suicide bomb vest and blow up a bus full of people? From that alone your human derived GR’s fall apart because of truth of the true human condition. I weep because of it and Jesus wept long ago and went to a cross willingly to expose the hate humanity has toward God…
-
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Morality Without God?

#375

Post by Butterfly » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:11 pm

RickD wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
The sun gives heat because of nuclear fusion, but the reason we feel heat is because we are living beings that have sensory nerves. The reason the GR has value is because it is meaningful to humans, not because of a moral law giver.
Whose side are you on, Rose? You're making an argument here for the GR being subjective. :lol:
Are you purposely trying to make things hard on me, or what? :pound:

The reason the GR has value is because it is meaningful to humans as a collective whole. In other words when something is viewed as meaningful from every human angle, not being dependent on an individual interpretation, but true no matter who views it (even if they don't practice it)...it then becomes objective to humans.
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A small flutter of butterfly wings, causes a great disturbance...

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