Unconditional Love

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Re: Unconditional Love

#16

Post by obsolete » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:04 pm

There is also this:
agopo-
of persons
to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
of things
to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing
In the course of time, Amnon son of David fell in love (ηγαπησεν - agape) with Tamar, the beautiful sister of Absalom son of David.
For this you would have to look up the Hebrew word that is being used since it is the Old Testament.

Agape-
brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence
love feasts

This is the kind of love Jesus showed His deciples and even comanded them to continue in this type of love. It goes for us as well.

benevolence-
the expression of kindness and altruism

The selfless concern for the welfare of others.

Jesus expects this from all of us. So, God has this type of concern for us, this love for us.
Jesus died for ALL. End of story.

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Re: Unconditional Love

#17

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:38 pm

For the purposes of our discussion, it doesn't matter what the Hebrew word is. The LXX is the Greek translation of the OT that dates back to around 200 BC. I'm pretty sure that the rabbis who translated the OT knew both Greek and Hebrew better than any scholar alive today.

The point? They used the word "agape" in a way that clearly does NOT mean "unconditional love" or "God's kind of love." In other words, the Greek word "agape" doesn't mean that. If the whole agape/philos/eros distinction was real in Koine, the rabbis would have used eros. But they didn't. They used agape, because, apparently, agape had become synonymous with philos and eros by the second century BC.

tl;dr - my post provided an example of the usage of a Greek word to demonstrate its range of meaning. The underlying Hebrew word has no bearing in this particular case.
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Re: Unconditional Love

#18

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:49 pm

Jac3510 wrote:For the purposes of our discussion, it doesn't matter what the Hebrew word is. The LXX is the Greek translation of the OT that dates back to around 200 BC. I'm pretty sure that the rabbis who translated the OT knew both Greek and Hebrew better than any scholar alive today.

The point? They used the word "agape" in a way that clearly does NOT mean "unconditional love" or "God's kind of love." In other words, the Greek word "agape" doesn't mean that. If the whole agape/philos/eros distinction was real in Koine, the rabbis would have used eros. But they didn't. They used agape, because, apparently, agape had become synonymous with philos and eros by the second century BC.

tl;dr - my post provided an example of the usage of a Greek word to demonstrate its range of meaning. The underlying Hebrew word has no bearing in this particular case.
I would disagree 'a bit' as the Hebrew helps bring out the theme why agape and its various spellings were used. Eros was more akin to paganism, the fertility cults, mystery religions, and false god's that the Jewish religious leaders used the agape spellings for a reason.

Translating from one language into another can be difficult as translators try to capture the closet meaning to a word possible. I doing so, they are uncovering the theme of the word. The theme is brought out in the context of the text it is used.

I am interested into looking into the context of how the agape spellings were translated into the LXX and later how agape spellings were translated into the Latin. The context is how it was used in contextual references pertaining to God. It does reveal something and we're digging around to uncover what it is.

The agape spellings were synonymous with philos and eros and storge. So you can say that the agape spellings hold a bit of all three Greek words used for love as well as say it usages adds something else to these. I am exploring what this 'something else' is.
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Re: Unconditional Love

#19

Post by Jac3510 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:21 am

I'm not too sure what you mean by "spellings." Do you mean, for example, the difference in agapo and agapsei? There are dozens of these, but if this is what you are talking about, that's just the inflection of the word. Greek words have a stem--in thase of agape, it is agap-; and then they have case endings: -o, -eis, -ei, -omen, -eta, -ousi (and others, but that's an example). There are verbs ends and noun endings depending on various declensions . . . there are prefixes that can change the meaning of the word. Vowels can be lengthened to give different tenses. All kinds of things.

None of those things, though, change the meaning of the word. They just change its inflection (I love, you love, he loves, I have loved, I am loving, you will love, he had loved, etc.). The meaning of the word itself is carried in the stem: agap-.

The reason, then, that I said the Hebrew word isn't important is that we are trying to understand what the stem agap- means. Nothing else. Most people argue that the word agap- means "God's kind of love" and the word phile- means "brotherly love." I pointed to a passage where agap- clearly does NOT make that distinction. It doesn't matter, then, what the Hebrew is underneath. If it is "God's kind of love" or "brotherly love" (not that Hebrew makes that distinction anyway), it wouldn't matter, because the word agap- in this passage doesn't refer to God's kind of love. I mean, heck, look at what Amnon did!

What, then, does the stem agap- mean? I argue that it just means "love" in its various connotations, very much like the English word does.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Unconditional Love

#20

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:25 pm

Jac3510 wrote:I'm not too sure what you mean by "spellings." Do you mean, for example, the difference in agapo and agapsei?...

What, then, does the stem agap- mean? I argue that it just means "love" in its various connotations, very much like the English word does...
What I meant by 'spellings' would be how the word was used and how its etymology came about. I agree "love" in its various connotations is very much like the English uses the word. No argument here you made valid and good points.

Let's look at this 'philology' of how we use the English word for love in the below examples:
I love chocolate chip cookies!

I loved how the Rockies beat the Marlins the other day.

That was such a loving remark he made snidely.

They made love last night.

She loved her daughter ever so dearly.

The axe murderer was beloved by his brother.

I love my wife and family.

Curt was a Marine who sacrificed himself for his buddies he loved by throwing himself upon that grenade. If the grenade fell near one of us, we to loved each other closer than brothers so much so that whoever was closest too that grenade would have done the same.
Now apply agape to each of the sentences. What defines the meaning? It is the context.

Yes, agape was used in the LXX form a Hebrew word with a wide array of uses. No doubt about that but it is the context that is important to note.

In the Old Testament, God loved the children of Israel. Does this mean a sexual thing because agape was used to describe a sexual act elsewhere? Should we limit agape to a strict definition and ignore context and how it was used and what word it was translated from according to context?

In the examples cited, and there could be more, we know what is being said and how to interpret the meaning of the type of love being described by the context. Yet, can we not also do so through etymology and context of the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin words used to describe an aspect of love (in context) pertaining to God and humanity?

Questions:
God so loved the world that he gave

What does that mean?

You shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart

What does that mean?

God loves you

What does that mean?

We are to love one another

What does that mean?

If we love God then we should love our brothers and sisters in Christ

What does that mean?
Context is very important. Caritas has something to add as does Ahab (Aheb) to understanding agape used in context of loving God and God loving us and we to each other.

Is there a pattern or something the context is revealing is what I am exploring here. Obsolete brought out several good points to add here:
obsolte wrote:Agape-brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence, love feasts ...

This is the kind of love Jesus showed His disciples and even commanded them to continue in this type of love. It goes for us as well.

Benevolence- the expression of kindness and altruism. The selfless concern for the welfare of others...

Jesus expects this from all of us. So, God has this type of concern for us, this love for us.
How does this kind of love come about - how does it work and develop? What is missing?
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Re: Unconditional Love

#21

Post by obsolete » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:19 am

How does this kind of love come about - how does it work and develop? What is missing?
I will try and answer these questions to the best of my ability.

This type of love can only come about from and through God/Holy Spirit/Jesus. It was evident when God created man. He spoke everything else into existence, yet when it came to man, God literally reached down and formed us out of the dust of the Earth. The word that is used for dust literally means (paraphrasing) refuge, garbage if you will. The act was so involved that God even knelt and breathed life into us. He could have just as easily spoken us into existence as well, but that is where that agape love stems from. Even after Adam sinned, God covered his "shame" with the skin of an animal.

Let me answer the last one next. The missing element in the equation is us. God gave us freewill, to chose to accept or deny Him. When we accept Him we also accpet the love that He gives. We make it our own. This could have only come from the sacrifce and the shedding of the blood of Jesus. "No greater love than this, that a man lay down his own life for his friends".

It works and developes when we spend time in His word, in prayer, at church amungst other believers. It is a continual growth that knows no boundaries.

God cares for His creation, us. It is apparent in the book of Jonah. Jonah went into Ninevah and said that "three more days and the city would be destroyed. His message wasn't of one of repentence, but of doom. But God said that there were "more than 120,000 that don't know their left from their right". Second chance for those whom He loves even when they were sinners.
Jesus died for ALL. End of story.

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Re: Unconditional Love

#22

Post by LeCherie » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:07 am

I have known people who claimed to be Christians express and demonstrate hate for others, and I've known people, who others claimed were not Christians, to express and demonstrate love for everyone. I believe that unconditional love for ALL people is synonymous with being a Christian.

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Re: Unconditional Love

#23

Post by Zebulon » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:18 am

LeCherie wrote:I have known people who claimed to be Christians express and demonstrate hate for others, and I've known people, who others claimed were not Christians, to express and demonstrate love for everyone. I believe that unconditional love for ALL people is synonymous with being a Christian.
I go for that to.

Welcome LeCherie!

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Re: Unconditional Love

#24

Post by B. W. » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:46 am

LeCherie wrote:I have known people who claimed to be Christians express and demonstrate hate for others, and I've known people, who others claimed were not Christians, to express and demonstrate love for everyone. I believe that unconditional love for ALL people is synonymous with being a Christian.
Likwise, I have known people who are not Christians express and demonstrate hate for others, and I've known people, who were Christians express and demonstrate love for everyone.

But again - what is love?

Question: Who loves more - one who warns of danger or one who is all accepting and lets one fall into harm?
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Re: Unconditional Love

#25

Post by Zebulon » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:02 am

B. W. wrote:Question: Who loves more - one who warns of danger or one who is all accepting and lets one fall into harm?
Question upon your question: Should or can love be calculated? Is love a mathematical notion?

And since I like inserting a joke here and there I am offering you this one B.W.
Image

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Re: Unconditional Love

#26

Post by B. W. » Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:08 pm

Zebulon wrote:Question upon your question: Should or can love be calculated? Is love a mathematical notion?
Image
Zebulon
:pound: :pound:

P. S. -- Note Exodus 20:14

Were the 10 given as acts of love or to support intolerance?
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Re: Unconditional Love

#27

Post by Zebulon » Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:29 pm

B. W. wrote:P. S. -- Note Exodus 20:14
20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Here's a quicky:

Jake was dying. His wife sat at the bedside.
He looked up and said weakly, "I have something I must confess."
"There's no need to, " his wife replied.
"No," he insisted, "I want to die in peace. I slept with your sister, your best friend, her best friend, and your mother!"
"I know," she replied, "now just rest and let the poison work."

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Re: Unconditional Love

#28

Post by zoegirl » Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:02 pm

Zebulon wrote:
LeCherie wrote:I have known people who claimed to be Christians express and demonstrate hate for others, and I've known people, who others claimed were not Christians, to express and demonstrate love for everyone. I believe that unconditional love for ALL people is synonymous with being a Christian.
I go for that to.

Welcome LeCherie!

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http://blogme.dium.com/files/gumby_narr ... 0x4830.jpg

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While loving your neighbor is CHristian, we cann't truly love without Christ. It is through a relationship with Him that allows us to be free to love, otherwise we are trapped in our sin. Being a Christian is not simply loving, for we cann't love perfectly without CHrist.
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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