My Psychic/Spirit theory(Poll included, read before voting)

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.

What do you think about psychic abilities?

Power! Mine! All mine! Mwahahahaha!
1
5%
It's possible, but very rare and nearly impossible to voluntarily develop.
4
20%
It is a gift from God given to a select few individuals.
5
25%
I don't believe in such things.
6
30%
I want my ten minutes back.
3
15%
Psychics? Buddhists? Superpowers? Heresy! Burn in hell! Hssssssssss...
1
5%
 
Total votes: 20

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My Psychic/Spirit theory(Poll included, read before voting)

#1

Post by Mastermind » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:01 pm

Psychic ability. Is it just a romantic illusion, or a well hidden latent ability of all people? I suspect the latter is more likely. First, I will briefly explain a few "anomalies" I usually associate with psychic ability, starting with my definiton of psychic ability and spirit ability:

Psychic ability: The power to manipulate energy through pure mental power. Psychic ability comes from within the individual(mind, soul, brain, whatever you believe to be the generator of our own thoughts and conscience.

Spirit ability: The power of outsiders to manipulate energy within our own universe.

Magic: The invocation of forces outside the individual's ability. Prayer would be "good" magic. Divination or Satan worshipping/contracts would be "bad" magic. Use of symbols and devices(using a holy artifact like the original cross on which Jesus was killed for example) to harness various forces of the universe would be "neutral" magic.

Actual individual abilities:

Transmutation: The ability to convert energy from one form to another. Bending spoons would be an example.

Telepathy: The ability to communicate with another being through thoughts alone.

Telekinesis: The ability to apply force to physical objects within our world through mental ability alone.

Astral Projection(Out Of Body experiences): The ability to leave the body without dying. I believe roughly 10% of the population involuntarily experiences this at least once in their lifetime. I've experienced it once, but it was brief so I wasn't able to retain much from it).

Hypersensitivity: The ability to "sense" things through your mind alone. Being prone to seeing ghosts or getting flashes from simply being near an area or an object that has been in the presence of strong emotions would be an example.

Clairvoyance: The ability to see into the past or the future. This is the ability most con artists claim to have when pretending to be "psychics".

Spontaneous Generation: The ability to create something from nothing. Only God has this ability.

Ok, now that I got a few conventions out of the way, let's get to the basics. First, why do I believe in psychic ability?

The answer is simple. It is the first force used by God Himself. It is part of Him. The ability to do things through pure will. When God said "Let there be life", there was life. He did not physically need to touch anything. There are many instances in the Bible in which God could have used spontaneous generation within the universe, but He does not. Why would God wait for the plants to grow by themselves ("Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth.") when He could pop them into existance? Why would God need to transmute dirt into the body of Adam if He could pop it into existance? I believe the first law of thermodynamics is "Energy cannot be created or destroyed", and there is a good reason for it. I suspect that the universe God created for us cannot support additional creation within it, and such an event would likely result in a cataclysm if it were to occur. So God does not do it. However, if God wanted to affect things within the universe, He would require other means to do so. And thus comes Transmutation, the ability to transform. God can use His infinite power to rearrange the basic building blocks of matter(and I am 99% sure we still don't know what they are). To be able to safely do things within the universe, I suggest that God created "channels" of mental energy that are able to recieve input from adequately developed minds and act upon those wishes. Having infinite power automatically makes God capable of using them(it would be redundant to assume otherwise). I know the question that will pop up from this: We know God can use those channels, but how do we know people can do it too? Well, for starters, we know Satan can do it. When Moses told the pharaoh he could turn water into blood, the pharaoh asked his own priests to display their power(which they did). I highly doubt God would have given the priests his abilities, just as I doubt that anybody with the mental discipline(I will discuss this further) to commit such a feat of his own will would behave like the priests. Whether the power came from Satan or one of the Egyptian gods(which I suspect to be the nephilim, and likely in league with Satan, but that's another story) is irrelevant. What is relevant is that God is unlikely to have interfered on behalf of the Egyptian clergy. This leads to the conclusion that God is not the only entity which can work with the theoretical "Psychic Channels". There is a similarity between God and Satan(assuming it was Satan and not the nephilim) however: they are both outside the Universe in a sense. However, Jesus was not. Jesus did not always ask His father for help (He was God afterall). When He was arrested, He uttered the words "I AM" and knocked the soldiers to the ground. We already know Jesus's body was "enhanced" when compared to an average human being(His ordeal before the curcifixion should show that much), and I suspect the body had advanced psychic abilities as well. If Jesus was incarnated within the universe, then He must have had access to the Psychic Channels from within. Additional evidence are the number of people with Hypersensitivity(a 6th sense), OOBs, poltergeists, hauntings(there are a few very bizzare and thorougly investigated hauntings which were shown not to be hoaxes, look up the Faces of Belmez for more information), etc. Some might say "Satan did it", but I don't think so. My OOB experience was a great aid in strengthening my faith, and if Satan induced it, he did a very very bad job. ;)

Spirit abilities:

I mentioned Spirit abilities before. The only difference is that a spirit ability accesses the Channel from outside the universe. The invocation of such forces would be considered "Magic". Selling your soul to Satan for the ability to spit fire would be an example. Praying to God to heal a sick relative would be another. Since the invoker isn't doing anything by himself(except maybe muttering), I usually classify it as different from psychic ability. In fact, for all I know, there might be separate channels for both psychic and spirit powers, but I won't get into that as it is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Additional(and interesting) instances of use of the channels would be artifacts. I'm sure we've all heard stories of great weapons with supposed magical abilities(Cronos's diamond sickle, Krishna's magic arsenal, Excalibur, etc.) In fact, our own religion has a good dose of them (statues and pictures of mary healing people, Jesus's own cross healing, the Spear of Longinus(I think that's what it's called) which was used to stab Jesus to verify His death, and which is rumored to grant its wielder the power to rule the world). I am still unsure on whether inanimate objects may offer power, but have not dismissed it yet.

Mental Discipline
If you accept the possibility that my theory might be correct, then we must also assume that God would place certain "safeguards".

First, I do not believe the ability is limited only to Christians, and I do not believe the Devil has any bearing on whether you are naturally inclined towards it or not. The Devil doesn't give us the ability to lift a cup with our hand, and I don't see why we should assume that he would have anything to do with us having the ability to lift the cup with our mind. Since being a "natural" at it isn't an everyday occurance, it is likely considered "abnormal" and given humanity's tendancy to loathe anything that deviates from the majority, it is quite likely that people always did and always will have a bias against such individuals. I believe it is a gift from God(like the use of our arms). However, such a gift is dangerous. If God would have made certain individuals with thick armored scales and ten inch claws, they would certainly have an advantage over most of us. As such, anybody inclined to such abilities will likely not be able to make use of them without practice or training. Some people naturally develop into smart scientists, as others naturally develop into body building machines. Does that mean the bodybuilder cannot increase his knowledge and wisdom, or that a scientist can't have a sixpack? No! I believe that if God gave humanity as a whole an ability, it would be available to most people should they work hard at it.

Mind Over Matter and Mental Discipline.
The best way to test and see if your mind has the ability to manipulate matter is to do this: take an object and throw it.
Would this have occured without your mind giving the hand the input it required? If you had a mental problem and was unable to read my proposal, would you have done it? Probably not. So we know that the Mind has an effect on matter. Now, the first form of matter manipulation(God's) was without the need of an arm. As we were made in His image, I would suggest that it would include a small scale version of God's ability to manipulate through pure will. Obviously, since we are nothing compared to God, it is also reasonable to assume that our ability is also incomparible to that of God. I doubt any ammount of psychic training will give you enough power to fling the Moon into the Sun. Now, I previously mentioned mental discipline. Most cases of the use of psychic ability comes from very religious people. The religion will likely be either Christian or Pre-Christian(Since God did not extend His covenant to include all of us, I suggest He might have played a small part in guiding different faiths to ensure they don't go crazy). Buddhis monks often get the credit for such feats(I remember watching a paranormal show where there was one monk who layed down on a big block of ice, outside, in the middle of a snowstorm, melted the block and lived. The doctors and scientists present said he should have died five times over), but there are quite a few Christian monks who were also seen doing such things (my grandmother told me about a monk somebody walked in on while he was praying, and the monk was levitating during prayer). What most of these people have in common is usually mental peace. I'm sure you've all been touched by the Holy Spirit and know what it feels like to be under His influence, where nothing can bother or harm you. Christians can achieve this through total faith and love for God, while those who have not heard of Christ may still feel God's presence, and take some measure of peace in it(I suspect a lot of the eastern mystics, which are usually secluded and unlikely to get a good chance to hear of Christ would fall into this catheogry, a situation that atheist enforcing governments like that of China are likely to make sure it doesn't change, unfortunately). I suspect God would usually avoid allowing such power to fall into the hands of normal people(good thing in my opinion, I'd hate to see what a pyrokinetic Stalin wannabe atheist would do with it). The few individuals who usually exhibit such abilities automatically are usually teenagers who want it gone(a bit of reading on poltergeists would be a start if you're interested in the subject), and who don't voluntarily do any harm. The mental discipline most monks and hermits develop will prevent them from going postal on the rest of us (when was the last time you've heard on the news about a monk or a hermit walking into a bank dual wielding AKs demanding all the money?). I'm getting tired, so I might have left a few things out. Feel free to comment or make suggestions.

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#2

Post by Mastermind » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:09 pm

Oh, and I forgot one thing(I'll try to keep it short :p):

Suppression

Often in our secular society, superstition is often mocked and laughed at. If somebody's child comes to you crying because they saw a ghost, most people will try to reassure them that there are no ghosts, etc. Any paranormal experience seen by a child is dispelled by the parent, and as the child grows and forgets about it, the child's mind no longer notices such things. I believe mainstream society has been doing this for thousands of years (although for different reasons), and frankly believe it is hurting humanity. If the mind is a generator of an unknown form of energy, our tendancy to suppress something like this will likely hamper our development. Imagine if the majority would claim computer advancement is wrong. We wouldn't be getting very far. And thanks to the spread of atheism, deism and secularism, it is only getting worse.

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#3

Post by Prodigal Son » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:35 pm

you forgot pyrokinesis (not full-blown like firestarter), but the ability to heat objects with your mind (boil water,etc.). i saw a special on discovery of some guy who can do this.

i don't think we can teach ourselves how to do these things, though. i think you have to be born with the part of the brain that allows it "open". our brains are closed-off (we only use 2%?). i think it's more genetic.

a cool thing you might be interested in researching which might support the development of your research:

the phantom limb issue (feeling an itch/pain following amputation where a limb used to be). answering this phenomenon might assist with uncovering the secrets of telekinesis.

multiple personalities (dissociative identity disorder) have been studied to a great extent and found to harbor these abilities on a regular basis:

--ability to change eye color
--ability to change facial structure
--abiity to eradicate or develop allergies/scars when personalities change
--demonstrate changes in brain waves and heart beat/blood pressure from one personality to the other.
--demonstrate high energy levels which disrupt electrical devices (prevent cars from starting, stop watches, etc.)

i don't think Jesus counts in all of this because he is divine (God) and can do all things anyways.

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#4

Post by Felgar » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:43 pm

colors wrote:multiple personalities (dissociative identity disorder) have been studied to a great extent and found to harbor these abilities on a regular basis:

--ability to change eye color
Really? Wow - that's amazing.

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#5

Post by Mastermind » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:48 pm

Actually, I consider pyrokinesis as a very specific form of telekinesis, as heat is caused by accelerating particles and causing friction. The rest ARE interesting though, I'll give them a look when I have time. As for using Jesus as an example, I won't do that if it was a secular scientific report, but remember my reasons for why I am using Jesus. While He can do all things, the Universe is limited and might not be able to withstand everything, and as such, Jesus would likely display some restraint.

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#6

Post by Anonymous » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:32 pm

Ok I have some issues with this, as in why would God need channels I mean your claiming he can't break the laws of physics, when he created them. I say God can do all things and the laws of physics apply to us and not him. Jesus appears out of thin air numerous times after his resurrection and i would consider that breaking the laws of physics.

Jesus got his powers from the Holy Spirit which is essentially from God or himself since God is a Trinity. Ok so your gonna have to be cautious when you claim Jesus had psychic abilities as their is no real evidence for that.

Your theory is interesting however I think your giving Demons and Satan way to much power. Although its evident that Demons when possessing someone can give them superhuman strength which is perhaps what the nephilim are, demon possessed people who have great strength. Beyond this however there's no proof. For example the Egyption priests i imagined used trickery similar to magicians of today instead of outside power. When Satan tempts Jesus he say's something like if your the son of God then why don't you turn that stone into bread. Satan doesn't say worship me and i'll turn the stone into bread.

Besides these slight problems it seems interesting and somewhat plausible although im more inclined to believe psychic abilities or anything of that sort doesn't go beyond having visions of which i believe are created by the holy spirit instead of "channels", but thats my guess. However, I don't believe in people who can talk to the dead or all that other jibberish.

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#7

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:45 am

Perhaps I did not make my point clear enough then. It's not that Jesus CANNOT do those things without the channels. It's that the universe could not resist direct use of God's power without something cataclysmic occuring. For example, God never uses spontaneous generation within the universe, it is only used to create the universe itself. Jesus appearing and reappearing isn't a matter of breaking any laws(assuming my theory is correct). I have heard of people able to teleport small objects unconsciously. Teleporting breaks no laws of physics. Jesus could simply dematerialise His body and recreate it at another point in space by rearranging the building blocks of air.

Now, about Satan. Why would he tell God to worship him? Satan simply knew God was also human at that point and wanted to show him he could not resist the needs of the flesh, thus showing God as fallable. I fail to see what this has to do with the subject at hand, except that Satan knows God won't use spontaneous generation which is why he asks Jesus to turn stones into bread rather than make bread appear.

"However, I don't believe in people who can talk to the dead or all that other jibberish."

Then why would the Bible advise against something that is "jibberish"?

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#8

Post by Anonymous » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:26 pm

Then why would the Bible advise against something that is "jibberish"?
Because people will try anything. But when people try, something else may happen that they never expected. GOD will allow the fallen angels to impersonate the dead. Remember, Saul, 1st king of Israel(1 Samuel 28:7). He went to inquire of the deceased Samuel - he talked with one that he thought was Samuel but it really wasn't.

1 Chronicles 10
13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;

He never talked to Samuel - Samuel is dead he doesn't talk. This is what I think of everytime I see the "Crossing Over" program.

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#9

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:42 pm

That still does not mean that it is impossible to talk to the dead though. We still don't know enough about the subject to make such an assessment(and as "pro psychic" as I am, Necromancy is one area even I would steer clear of investigating), and I like to keep it this way.

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#10

Post by Anonymous » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:58 pm

Mastermind
That still does not mean that it is impossible to talk to the dead though
As a believer in God and the Bible, I would have to say it is impossible.

Ecclesiastes 9

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This seems pretty final. Also from a scientific perspective, dead is dead. No reanimation of dead organs has ever occurred (to my knowledge) and this would be required for the dead to talk back. THink about it, their thoughts are held in a brain that is dead.

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#11

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:11 pm

"As a believer in God and the Bible, I would have to say it is impossible.

Ecclesiastes 9

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This seems pretty final. Also from a scientific perspective, dead is dead. No reanimation of dead organs has ever occurred (to my knowledge) and this would be required for the dead to talk back. THink about it, their thoughts are held in a brain that is dead."

First, reanimation is not necessary to communicate with the dead. At any rate, you are wrong about the reanimation part too, unless you feel like denying Jesus's miracles. ;)

Now, to the final point. Those verses state that the dead don't really know anything. What does that have to do with communicating with them? You can still talk to a mentally disabled person. It's probably not very efficient or productive, nor will it make sense, but it doesn't make it impossible.

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#12

Post by Anonymous » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:30 pm

What does that have to do with communicating with them? You can still talk to a mentally disabled person.
How does this differ from talking to a body in the morgue? or talking to a tree? it seems the same.
You can go the graveyard and spark a conversation there - same results. The mentally disabled are different in that they can process (how ever ineffectively) the words being said to them.

But this is away from the point. Most people(using mediums) who attempt to contact the dead are looking for answers of some kind. They want to interact with the dead - this is just impossible.

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#13

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:43 pm

Are there any more references to the dead not being knowing nothing? I am sure that the "they know nothing" you presented means they know nothing of this world, based on the context of that particular section.

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#14

Post by Anonymous » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:50 pm

Mastermind wrote:Are there any more references to the dead not being knowing nothing? I am sure that the "they know nothing" you presented means they know nothing of this world, based on the context of that particular section.
There is no "of this world" in this verse - that would constitute an assumption.

but the dead know not any thing,

How many things are in not any thing? None!

... again ...

Psa 146
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

It doesn't sound like there are any thoughts that survive this.

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#15

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:56 pm

"There is no "of this world" in this verse - that would constitute an assumption."

No, but there is a contrast(comparing the living, who know that they will die, as opposed to the dead who know nothing). This is a contrast. It is saying they know nothing about the subject at hand. Then again, we are using different translations. Perhaps somebody fluent in hebrew can help us out...

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.




"4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

Mine says [4] When his breath departs he returns to his earth;
on that very day his plans perish.

I'm using the Revised Standard Version btw.

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