The Sabbath

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
R7-12
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#31

Post by R7-12 » Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:07 pm

John,

You asked,
Why is that am I a hertick until I return to the old ways?
What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; and there is nothing new under the sun (Ecc. 1:9, RSV).
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of man (Ecc. 12:13, RSV).
IF the work of Jesus did nothing for you and you must do as those who came before him, than so be it. IF you chose to ignore the scripture that I showed you, than so be it remain in bondage to the Law of Sin.
Jesus Christ did as those before him who were faithful only he did it all perfectly. Keeping the law perfectly is what qualified him to become your substitute sacrifice. How then can you continue breaking the law? The Scriptures you provide claiming to show the law does not have to be kept, are not correctly understood. If they say what you assume they say, then these texts contradict many, many more texts that clearly state the precise opposite. So which is it? Why not look at all the texts for the correct answer?

Those who remain unwilling to submit to God and His Law/Word who — who refuse to live by His commands, are those who remain in bondage to the law of sin and death. The law says those who sin must pay the righteous requirement of the law with their lives. Those who truly accept Christ as the perfect sacrifice that is offered in our place for breaking the law, and die with him at baptism, will then strive to do what God commands and thus willingly abstain from continuing in sin.
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:26-29, NKJV).
You asked,
Explain this if you can, what is the law of sin and death and how does it work?
In fact, I have more than once.
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (Rom. 7:22-23, NKJV).
The law of sin leads to death and it wages war against the law of God in the naturals pulls and desires of the flesh which the adversary uses against us in our coveting and lusting. We become captives to it because we are held to the death penalty outside of repentance, forgiveness and ultimate redemption.
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin (Rom. 7:25, NKJV)….

Continuing without a break…

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:1-2, NKJV).
The apostle Paul understood the law of God from his conversion and served the law of God in his beliefs and his conduct (His mind and will) but also made mistakes, giving in to the desires of the flesh on occasion. From these errors he would repent of daily and then turn from them. He clearly speaks of the law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ. It is that part of the law of God that provides a perfect sacrifice to pay for our debt to the law, and upon repentance, baptism and a life devoted to serving God, we receive the spirit of God which is our downpayment or guarantee for everlasting life which we receive if we endure to the end (Acts 5:32, Eph. 1:13-14, Matt. 10:22; 24:13).
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:23a, NKJV).
Committing sin pays wages — death.
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law (1 Cor. 15:56, NKJV).
The strength of sin is the law of sin and death which says the payment for living sinfully (continuing to break that law and not coming to repentance) is one's life. The strength of this law are the commandments of God which are given for our obedience to God so that we do not deserve the death penalty.
The labor of the righteous leads to life, The wages of the wicked to sin. 17 He who keeps instruction is in the way of life, But he who refuses correction goes astray (Prov. 10:16-17, NKJV).
When we live according to the flesh our conduct bears fruit to death. However, when we repent and accept Christ's sacrifice, we are delivered from the penalty of the law — death. Thus we are delivered from law as Paul said because we have died to that which held us captive — the law of sin and death. Since Christ's sacrifice, God's people are to serve in faith based on Christ's blood, in the newness of the Spirit and not serve in the old letter which required animal blood but did not take away sin (Heb. 10:4).
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:5-6, NKJV).
It is clear this passage speaks of that aspect of the law which concerns the penalty or consequence for breaking it and not the aspect of the law which teaches us how to obey God. For how can we be delivered from the commandment, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me”? Or “Honor your father and mother”? or “Thou shalt not commit murder”? Rather, we are delivered from the requirement the law demands for breaking even one of God's commandments (James 2:10).

Before Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, he was not aware of the spiritual intent behind the law of God and thus considered himself to be alive before God. He only understood it within a Judaic framework. When the truth was revealed to him he became aware that he was guilty of breaking the law of God in many, many ways and thus became aware that he was a dead man relative to the law. He believed that merely doing the letter of the law (sacrificial ordinances) was enough but later realized that without his willingness to live by the spiritual aspects of the law and depending upon Christ as his sacrifice, he was a dead man.
I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me (Rom. 7:9-11, NKJV).
For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God (Gal. 2:19, NKJV).
The law required Paul's life in payment for breaking it. Through Christ's death, Paul was able to offer what the law required and thus died to the law (as far as the law was concerned, Paul was dead thus paying what he owed it). Now he lives to God but not in the flesh but by the spirit Christ now lives in him.
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me (Gal. 2:20, NKJV).
Righteousness does not come through the animal sacrifices (the law as Judaism saw it - Gal. 2:21) but by the grace of God (His kindness demonstrated by offering His son as a sacrifice in our place). For if righteousness came by animal sacrifices (which Judaism believed) then the sacrifice of Christ is in vain.

R7-12
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#32

Post by R7-12 » Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:17 pm

What was the work of Christ?
I have told you already in great detail but you have not listened.
I agree fine there is no need to engage in disputes, but you have a holier than thou attitude ti seems to me that you believe I am in error, and you are high and mighty because you try to keep the LAW
This has come out of your mind not mine.

You said,
And peace to you, when you accept the freedom christ gave you we can reutrn to gainful discussion about the Law.
the peace you extend to me is conditional.

I said,
Perhaps when you have come to accept the Biblical injunction (both OT and NT) to live by the law of God as He commands, we will continue discussions.

Peace and blessings,
It was from my perspective that my continuation in this discussion with you was conditional upon your acceptance of the law of God. My salutation was not.
But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned (Titus 3:9-11, NKJV).
You yourself agreed with this when you wrote,
I agree fine there is no need to engage in disputes
You said at the beginning of this thread that you are open to a discussion on the law and that you even keep the law if only in part. When you err you depend on the grace of God for forgiveness for your transgressions. This is precisely what I believe also.
I am very open to a discussion on the Law. I want to point out that I believe that I do keep the law in large part. I know that I fail to at times, and that the Grace of our Lord is great. I am not arguing that the Law isn't good or that there is something wrong with trying to adhere to it. I do however believe that loving my neighbor and honoring my God is a more sure way, for me, to please my father, and when I do so I know that I must be keeping the Law,
However, with every post I make you ignore the myriad of points and Scriptures I raise and choose instead to repeat texts that you think say something else. It's perfectly clear that you are not interested in learning about the law of God but wish instead to maintain what you currently believe without consideration of other possibilities.

That is your choice and that is why I said that there is basically no point in continuing this dialogue about the law of God unless and until you choose to submit to God's commands.

John, you have taken this discussion to a personal level and that is not necessary.

I believe what God commands in His word and this is what Jesus Christ also repeated, that we must keep our Father's commandments.

You don't believe God's people must obey God's commands in His law. So what's the point of continuing this discussion if you are unwilling to do what God and His son Jesus Christ have commanded?

God says through Isaiah at 8:20 that if you do not speak according to the Law and the Testimony there is no light in you.

You say Christ freed us from the requirement to keep the Law.

The fact is Jesus Christ gave the Law to Moses and he said not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass away.

Observance of the Law of God is written in the Scriptures, both in the NT and the OT. Any texts that appear to contradict this are merely misunderstood. However, providing the correct understanding of these texts would serve no purpose because you have determined not to consider the law even if the Word of God says so.

I have taken the time to answer all of your posts point by point but your posts do not do so in return. Instead your posts isolate bits and pieces or simply avoid my entire post and raise a new issue or different text. What of all the previous points and Scriptures in my posts?

You have admitted,
OK fine I do not want to keep the Law.
That appears to be the normal human reaction to God's law as it says in Rom. 8:7-8 because the human fleshly mind is enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God and neither can it be — unless one willingly chooses to live by God's word and become a doer of the law not just a hearer of it (a hearer of the law only speaks of those willing to hear it and doesn't even address those who won't listen but speak openly against it - James 1:25). That leads me back to…

You still have not answered the hypothetical question,
[IF] Almighty God requires your obedience to His law, specifically the Ten Commandments, the clean and unclean food laws, the Sabbaths, New Moons, and annual Holy Days. What would it take for you to get to the place where you would genuinely want to keep His law?
R7-12

Jbuza
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#33

Post by Jbuza » Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:59 am

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#34

Post by R7-12 » Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:33 pm

John,

With every new post you avoid responding to what I've said. You've asked questions like “Why was the law given?” — I answered it. “Explain this if you can, what is the law of sin and death and how does it work?” — I answered. “What was the work of Christ?” — I answered that too. You've raised objections — I've answered them. You've developed arguments — I answered those also.

Not once have you engaged in a linear conversation that developed from one logical point to another. And now you ask,
Now why don't you tell me how these passages do not mean what they say.
Why? Because you are not interested in what they say. I've had this conversation before and I've seen where it goes. Every answer given is either ignored or dismissed or redirected to another text.

What's the point John? You told me,
I am interested in the Law
Then you admitted,
OK fine I do not want to keep the Law.
You're not willing to keep the law so how could you be convinced that you must? I could show you the correct context of those passages you asked about, but you are not open or willing to receive the truth.

You have resisted from the start,
I will continue to illustrate why I do not believe I am obligated to.
That's your prerogative, but it also shows an unwillingness to see another point of view.

I've told you that I don't wish to dispute the law. If you're unwilling to learn more about it why should I continue?

I have asked you only a few questions and most are ignored. I have asked the following question three times but you still do not answer,
[IF] Almighty God requires your obedience to His law, specifically the Ten Commandments, the clean and unclean food laws, the Sabbaths, New Moons, and annual Holy Days. What would it take for you to get to the place where you would genuinely want to keep His law?
Your unwillingness to honestly answer this question indicates your unwillingness to listen.

You have not responded to one text that clearly and directly says you are required to keep the law — of which there are many, and now you want me to respond to a few obscure texts that are not well understood?

You have written,
I do not seek to keep the Law.
What is their for me to follow the Law now?
I am very open to a discussion on the Law.
There is nothing for me in the Law, it is a curse to Man. I am not sying it isn't good and just, but I am not capable of pleasing God through the law, so I do not submit myself to the Law.
I am guilty of the whole law except by the cleansing of the Blood.
I do not need the Law to do the things that are in it. I cannot keep the LAw so I do not Keep the Law, but I seek to do what I feel is right as best as I can before God.
I can assure you that I don't want to love my neighbour
I am in no way trying to say that it is a bad thing for you to try to keep the Law (it is a curse to you, though),
I am not arguing that the Law isn't good or that there is something wrong with trying to adhere to it.
The keeping of the Law is nothing. It is not how a son loves a father. I agree that it is true that if we do Love our father we will also be keeping his commandments
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

I agree that transgression of the LAw is sin, but I also believe that for a Christian there is sin that is outside the law. OR more properly, in my opinion, since we are not under the Law, sin has changed and includes not doing the good we know we should.


Emphasis added by R7-12
It is written,
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him (1 John 2:3-5).
You asked,
Now why don't you tell me how these passages do not mean what they say.
I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell me, I likewise will tell you what these passages say. It's not complicated, you know the answer already, and it doesn't require explanation or commentary just a simple “YES” or “NO.” Consider it carefully because it requires complete honesty — that is, if you answer.

Does the law of sacrifice apply to those whom God calls?

R7-12

Jbuza
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#35

Post by Jbuza » Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:27 pm

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#36

Post by R7-12 » Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:21 pm

Hi Jbuza,

Thanks for your reply, it was encouraging to hear you say,
I assure you that if I am mistaken in my understanding of my relationship to the Law that I do indeed want to change.
And thank you for saying,
I will try to do better with at least providing you feedback on your points.
I appreciate your willingness to participate more in our discussion.

You also said,
I do not understand why these scriptures (the ones I posted alone) do not indicate that it isn't about keeping the law anymore,
You have isolated the very problem that many have concerning the law — terms or phrases such as: “the law”, “under the law” and “the works of the law” are not understood. Instead their meaning is assumed and thus error enters which obfuscates the real matters involved therein resulting in incorrect exegesis.

If you are truly interested in considering how the law is currently being misunderstood, I will endeavour to review each text that is presumed to speak contrary to the law and provide the texts and comments that correctly explain their meaning.

I will begin preparing my response to the first of the texts you cited which is held to assert we are not required to keep the commandments. In the meantime…

I asked,
Does the law of sacrifice apply to those whom God calls?
Your response,
Sorry but I cannot answer this with one word. First I'm not real sure what you mean by the law of sacrifice.
What does the law of sacrifice require of one who breaks the law of God?

R7-12

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#37

Post by Jbuza » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:53 am

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#38

Post by R7-12 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:01 am

Jbuza,

You asked,
But how can we be certain we are going to understand if we address them from a pro-law standpoint? Can't we just genuinely address and let the chips fall as they may?
What you're saying is, "Why can't we just continue to view the false assumptions about the law that we already have, from an anti-law standpoint, and leave the chips lying on the floor"?

You're already doubting the outcome and we've not even begun yet.

So what's the point?

I can see that you really don't want to go down that path. And you know what? If you don't want to, neither do I.

I asked,
Does the law of sacrifice apply to those whom God calls?
You're first response was,
Sorry but I cannot answer this with one word. First I'm not real sure what you mean by the law of sacrifice.
Then I asked,
What does the law of sacrifice require of one who breaks the law of God?
Your response,
Blood and Death was required.
Absolutely Right! Since we've established that you do know what the term "Law of sacrifice" means...

What do ya think John...

Does the Law of sacrifice apply to those whom God calls?

If you answer either YES or NO, I will post at least one more time.

Until then,
R7-12

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#39

Post by Jbuza » Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:26 am

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#40

Post by R7-12 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:09 pm

Jbuza,

Then you are still alive (Col. 3:3). Faith is pointless, God's chosen are not redeemed (Rev. 5:9). All remain in sin! (1 Cor. 15:3, 17) God's righteousness is far off and the kingdom will fail (Isaiah 51:3-8 ). The requirement in the law is not fulfilled and no one can please God (Rom. 8:3-8 ). You may seek Christ but you will die in your sin (John 8:21, 24).

Is this enough to change your answer and begin looking favourably at the law of God?

R7-12

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#41

Post by Jbuza » Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:49 pm

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#42

Post by R7-12 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:59 pm

Jbuza,

You said,
Nope, sorry it is not. Shall I sacrifice Jesus every time I sin?
Either you're deliberately avoiding the point or you just don't get it.

I suggest you re-read the initial question.

R7-12

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#43

Post by Jbuza » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:13 pm

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#44

Post by Jbuza » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:16 pm

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#45

Post by R7-12 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:41 pm

Yes, in part. You have identified the temporary, physical administration of the concept in question. It was given by Almighty God to Israel, through the Angel of YHVH in the first phase of the covenant. This system in the law was the schoolmaster or tutor (Gal. 3:24).

There is however, the goal or purpose of this system (Rom. 10:4), who would come to fulfill the requirement of the law (Matt. 5:17, Rom. 8:4), which you rightly identified as the shedding of blood and death.

I will make it plain.

Here is the law of sacrifice in the NT,
And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22).
Do those whom God calls to repentance require the application of the shed blood of Christ for salvation - which is central to the law of God? (Hosea 6:6, Matt. 9:13; 12:6; 23:23, Ps. 40:6-10).

R7-12

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