The Sabbath

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1683
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#196

Post by FFC » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:36 pm

Byblos wrote:
FFC wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you are a Jew or Gentile; God wants us to obey
ALL of his commands.
ALL? :shock: That certainly is a lot.
What happens if you don't?
Good question.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Yeshua's follower
Familiar Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:07 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#197

Post by Yeshua's follower » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:00 pm

What happens if you don't?
If we willfully disobey God after knowing what his teachings are then...well I think it says it best in Hebrews 10:26-27...

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES."

I want you to know that I don't believe that salvation has ever been earned through the keeping of the Torah/law, but by faith. Salvation is a free GIFT from God. However, after we accept God's salvation, we must uphold ALL of his word! It says in Romans 3:31...

"Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the Law."
and also in Romans 2:13...
"For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified."

Therefore there must be evidence of our salvation through obedience to his word. It may seem like there is a lot at first glance, but God's Torah was never meant to be a burden. God only wants what is best for his people and that is why he has given his Torah(Hebrew word we translate as law; but actually means guidelines and instructions), so that we can have guidance on how to live a godly life and identify ourselves with our Master and Creator. 1 Peter 1:15 says,

"But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: Be holy, because I am holy."

Yeshua's follower
Familiar Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:07 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#198

Post by Yeshua's follower » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:27 pm

Just one second... Who is Israel? Is it us? Were the Gentiles Adopted into Israel and therefore required to follow the Law?
Yep, we as Gentiles have been grafted into Israel, I love the passage in Romans 11:17-21 where it talks about this...

"If some of the branches [unbelieving Jews by blood] have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot [believing Gentiles], have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."

So we used to be Gentiles...but not any longer.

There are so many scriptures that could be listed, but here is another one that is pretty powerful in Romans 2:28-29...

"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code."

So according to this verse if you are a Gentile and if you have a circumcised heart, you are the real JEW/Israelite! A Jew by blood who doesn't have a circumcised heart is not a JEW/Israelite! So because we are God's people we will obey his commands in the Torah! It says in John 10:16...

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

Does God have one set of laws for the Jews and another set for Gentiles? No! We are all one in Messiah. Remember that we have become grafted into olive tree of Israel, not the other way around. So God's commands apply just as much to us as it does to them.

Yeshua's follower

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1683
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#199

Post by FFC » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:38 pm

In Galatians 3 we see this concerning the law:

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Am I missing something or does this passage tell us that:

1. we are no longer under the law since Christ came.

2. the only thing that makes us right with Christ is faith in Christ and Christ alone.

3. There is no differentiation anymore to those who put their faith in Christ.

Serving God by faith has always been a heart issue, even with the law spelling it out for us. Unfortunatley, God knew that the Law as perfect as it is would never be enough, which is why Christ came...correct?

So, not to insult my messianic brothers and sisters in Christ, but why if the law couldn't make us perfect with God before Christ came, do you think that after Christ came it can add anything to what was already accomplished on the cross?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#200

Post by bizzt » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:38 am

FFC wrote:In Galatians 3 we see this concerning the law:

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Am I missing something or does this passage tell us that:

1. we are no longer under the law since Christ came.

2. the only thing that makes us right with Christ is faith in Christ and Christ alone.

3. There is no differentiation anymore to those who put their faith in Christ.

Serving God by faith has always been a heart issue, even with the law spelling it out for us. Unfortunatley, God knew that the Law as perfect as it is would never be enough, which is why Christ came...correct?

So, not to insult my messianic brothers and sisters in Christ, but why if the law couldn't make us perfect with God before Christ came, do you think that after Christ came it can add anything to what was already accomplished on the cross?
Ya know FFC that is wonderful. Thanks!

NewCreature
Familiar Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:32 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Priesthood

#201

Post by NewCreature » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:10 pm

God gives his law through his priests. The Levitical priesthood has passed away, and the sole and High Priest with all honour and authority as the Priest of the Living God is Jesus Christ of the order of Melchizadek.

While I know that there are other points about the Law, one thing that is clear is that when a change of the priesthood happens there is a resultant change in the Law. How did Jesus change the Law as the Priest of God?

IT is clear that the Levitical law is made to no effect with its fleshly symbolization by circumcision, because the new Priest Jesus Christ instiuted baptism, and made a prefectly effectual way for man to be restored to God. There are weightier matters than the letter. The Law cannot restore or please God, because all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Our ability to keep the Law before God is partial. It only lights the path to Calvary.

IF you make yourself to no effect and submit fully to the Holy Spirit, what need have you of Laws?

Yeshua's follower
Familiar Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:07 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#202

Post by Yeshua's follower » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:50 pm

Hello everyone,
I was just wondering, I thought I posted something on here but I don't see it. I was pretty sure that I remember seeing it, but I'm not really sure. I also thought other people posted some things too. It would be great if someone could tell me if I'm just imagining things or if it got erased or something.

Thank you,
Yeshua's follower

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1683
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#203

Post by FFC » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:01 pm

Yeshua's follower wrote:Hello everyone,
I was just wondering, I thought I posted something on here but I don't see it. I was pretty sure that I remember seeing it, but I'm not really sure. I also thought other people posted some things too. It would be great if someone could tell me if I'm just imagining things or if it got erased or something.

Thank you,
Yeshua's follower
There were some problems with the server and we lost some posts and even some whole threads from what I hear.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1683
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#204

Post by FFC » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:10 pm

While I'm here...what do we think of these verse?

Romans 7: 7b-8, 10
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

If sin is dead apart from the law, and the law actually brings death, why would a follower of Christ think that he or she was required by God to try keep it. Jesus our all in all is our life.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

hfd
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#205

Post by hfd » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:16 pm

Let's see if I understand this. According to some here the Decalogue is no longer in vogue therefore Sabbath keeping is no longer required. If that's true then I assume the same attitude is applied to other laws such as adultry, murder, lying and stealing. Have I got this right?

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#206

Post by B. W. » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:10 am

hfd wrote:Let's see if I understand this. According to some here the Decalogue is no longer in vogue therefore Sabbath keeping is no longer required. If that's true then I assume the same attitude is applied to other laws such as adultry, murder, lying and stealing. Have I got this right?
Does your Birthday fall on the same day of the year every year? Answer is no - neither does the Sabbath. If you check it out - Passover is a good indicator of the real Sabbath day and it falls on a different day of the year in our calendar system. Everyone breaks it.

The issue is this — The Sabbath rest was made for human beings and not Human Beings made for the Sabbath. What is important is to take a day of rest and RnR— by doing so — you honor the Sabbath. It was made for us not against us. It demonstrates God's Grace and those so inclined honor God on the Sabbath too for his great Grace.
hfd wrote:…If that's true then I assume the same attitude is applied to other laws such as adultery, murder, lying and stealing. Have I got this right?
Hmmm, I guess you would like to live in a world where anything goes? Well, we are heading there and you should be in restful bliss then.

Do you really understand who Jesus Christ is and what the work on the cross is and did? Or just looking to argue?
-
-
-

pentebaptadvent
Newbie Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:50 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

I attend chuch saturday and sunday

#207

Post by pentebaptadvent » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:23 am

....as well as wednesday. Some people work on sunday (or saturday or both) and can only attend wednesday. I think the point is to try and go at least once a week, which day(s) you go is hair-splitting if you ask me.
I was raised baptist, which is good teaching. However, the southern baptist churches I attended growing up were quite cold outside of that. Christianity (or maybe you could argue any religion for that matter) is supposed to be about fellowship and caring people praying over one another.
If I just want a social gathering, I'll attend parties or go to clubs. The spiritual element is missing from so many churches (regardless of denomination) and good old-fashioned caring (truly caring) about each other.

It may shock the reader to know that I attend a 7th Day Adventist church, as well as a pentecostal one and I am learning their teachings. It may differ from what I was taught growing up but I love the people at both churches. They are warm, caring people who won't hesitate to lay hands and pray over you (esp. the pentecostal church) and aren't so cold and stiff that they've forgotten how to hug.

The confusion of denominational differences and worries over who is and who isn't going to hell are things that do not scare me anymore. My personal relationship with God consists most importantly the time I spend alone in meditation and God clearly reveals his nature without any confusion. Paul was right that we should not forsake the fellowship (something I've learned the hard way after many years) and that means that we should not separate ourselves from other christians just because we don't agree with them on everything.
If it's necessary to find common ground in order to get along with someone else, that can be done with anyone regardless of their religion (or lack of). Everyone has a difference of opinion on something, this is just the way life goes. Focus on what's good and what you can agree on.

Paul's thought processes are something I have come to understand over the years.
Basically, he just used common sense. If something you do offends someone (food sacrificed to idols, etc), then, out of politeness don't do it in front of those people.
Paul's point was that we need not be ritualistic or superstitious but to use common sense. I mean, well, you could go too far in giving in to what people want you to do or not do just because they are offended, common sense must be used in this situation too.

Paul didn't let himself get fearful or superstitious or go off on tangents. Spirituality doesn't require people to lose their minds or their common sense, it should bring clarity.

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re:

#208

Post by jenna » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:28 pm

Jac3510 wrote:Strictly speaking, the Sabbath was never changed. What did happen was that Christians began meeting on Sunday (the Lord's day) to worship celebrate Christ's resurrection--and this began happening in the apostles' day, so don't think it was something the Church Fathers decided on--rather than on Saturday.
Actually, this started when the Roman Catholic Church decided to separate themselves from God's true people. They commanded that Sunday be the day of worship and murdered those who did not follow their ways.
As for keeping the fourth commandment, we are no longer under the Law, and that includes the Ten Commandments. The Sabbath principle still applies, but not in the form of a commandment.
Why would you say we are no longer under the Law? The 10 commandments are still in effect today, ALL of them, including the Sabbath. Why else would Jesus call himself "Lord of the Sabbath?"
God bless

I wonder how long it will be before I start getting objections based on the moral law still applying and/or straw men/slippery slopes such as, "so we are allowed to murder and worship false gods then?!? :p
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: The Sabbath

#209

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:37 pm

If the Sabbath was "done away" then why did Christ call Himself "lord of the SABBATH"? God plainly states in the bible "I CHANGE NOT". Jesus also said he did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. The Sabbath has not changed. God said it would be a "sign" between Him and His people. He knew men would change His day of worship, that is why He said "REMEMBER the Sabbath day and keep IT holy.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Sabbath

#210

Post by bizzt » Mon May 26, 2008 12:54 pm

jenna wrote:If the Sabbath was "done away" then why did Christ call Himself "lord of the SABBATH"? God plainly states in the bible "I CHANGE NOT". Jesus also said he did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. The Sabbath has not changed. God said it would be a "sign" between Him and His people. He knew men would change His day of worship, that is why He said "REMEMBER the Sabbath day and keep IT holy.
Jenna,

What do you believe the Sabbath day is? Is it Saturday by our Calenders or are we supposed to go by the Jewish Calender?

Thanks

Post Reply