The Sabbath

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
R7-12
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#166

Post by R7-12 » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:14 am

Sorry I think I am all done talking with you.
That's ok jbuza, I was done a long time ago myself.

Perhaps I will remind you of your decision to stop talking with me should you ever forget and inadvertantly respond to one of my posts. I wouldn't want you to go back on your word by accident.

Perhaps we will speak again some time in the future.

Until then ... be good.

R7-12

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R U willing to explore the Law of God?

#167

Post by R7-12 » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:24 am

Anyone interested in the truth about the law of God?

The bible clearly indicates the Sabbaths, New Moons and the feast of Tabernacles will be observed in the millennium under the authority of our Lord and King - Jesus Christ.

In fact he will enforce the law of God to the point of starvation and perhaps even death.

So how does one reconcile this fact with the assertion that the Sabbaths, New Moons and Holy Days are not required to be observed by God's people now?

It's a logical absurdity on the face of it and demonstrably contrary to Scripture.

How does one support opposition to the Sabbath and law of God generally in light of the facts above?

R7-12

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#168

Post by Yeshua's follower » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:30 pm

I guess then that you would say we need to follow the entire Law of Moses? Doesn't the Bible say those who follow it must follow all of it? What of Jesus showing compassion to the harlot instead of following the LAW and stoning her? OR what of Paul with respect to the Man in Corinthians that was sleeping with his step mother? Is it not written that Christ is the end of the Law and that we have righteousness in him? I believe that I have Liberty from the strict rules of the mosaic Law. I have the Spirit of God and as long as I can follow his will I need not worry about rules and regs.
Yes, we should obey the law of moses, but we shouldn't obey God's commands to be Justified or to save ourselves, we should obey them out of love.

Matthew 4:4 - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This brings us into your question about those that following it have to follow all of it. When the bible says that those who follow it have to follow all of it, it is talking as a means of Salvation. If someone is going to save themself without the blood of Jesus, then they must follow everything perfectly in the law.

The verses about Jesus and the woman that commited adultery are John 8:1-11

But Jesus went to (A)the Mount of Olives.
2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and (B)He sat down and began to teach them.

3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,

4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.

5"Now in the Law (C)Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"

6They were saying this, (D)testing Him, (E)so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.

7But when they persisted in asking Him, (F)He straightened up, and said to them, "(G)He who is without sin among you, let him be the (H)first to throw a stone at her."

8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.

10(I)Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"

11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "(J)I do not condemn you, either Go From now on (K)sin no more."]

"He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Jesus is agreeing with the Law of Moses, He is not belittling the Law of Moses or devaluing it, after all Jesus gave it to Moses originally! Jesus is the Word made Flesh (John 1:14). As the Word of God, it's 'Jesus's' Word and the teachers of the Law were using it incorrectly. They were presenting the Word of God as a rod to strike the sheep not guide the sheep. It was not law that was 'harsh' on the people, but those who were the teachers of the Law using it incorrectly who were harsh.

Now I was a little bit confused when I first read this verse. Was Jesus sinning because he didn't follow the law and stone the woman? Was he breaking the command in Deuteronomy 22:22 by not stoning her? No. First we know that Jesus never sinned. So how can we reconcile this with the fact that the O.T. said to stone or kill someone for disobedience to God's commands? It is because when God talked about killing people for disobeying his commands, he was talking to the leader or the king of the Nation of Israel. If someone broke a commandment like this, then the leader of Israel had the right to kill the person who did it. It was the Just thing to do, because we all deserve death. But God was not telling his people to go out and kill someone everytime they saw someone sin. I believe it was for the leaders. It is also the same with the "eye for an eye" thing. That was not for them as individuals, but for the leaders. Jesus had to correct the pharisees by telling them to turn the other cheek on an individual basis, because they had interpreted the command incorrectly.

Now about your question on christ being the end of the Law.

Romans 10:4 For the Messiah is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The word "end" in this verse means "goal" or "end purpose", but it doesn't mean termination. The fact is that God's law doesn't make anyone righteous, it only shows/reveals to all their sin because we did not keep this law. The Messiah is the end of the law "FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS".
We need the Righteousness of God through Jesus the Messiah in order for us to appear righteous unto God.

If there are questions about anything please ask.

In Christ

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#169

Post by Jbuza » Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:59 pm

gone
Last edited by Jbuza on Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#170

Post by ruth » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:27 pm

Hello,
This was posted: Mar 09, 2006 so it's a fairly old post and I'm not sure RT 12 or Yeshua's follower are still posting, but I'd like to discuss the Law with some others who are interested. I love YHVH and His Laws and follow them as much as I can. I have been very blessed. I am saved by the Promised Seed of Gen.3, Yeshua the Messiah and King of the Jews even though I am not a Jew but am grafted into the commonwealth of Israel as a ger.
Below is the post from Yeshua's follower:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote: [questions from another poster]:
I guess then that you would say we need to follow the entire Law of Moses? Doesn't the Bible say those who follow it must follow all of it? <snipped>
.........................................................................
Yes, we should obey the law of moses, but we shouldn't obey God's commands to be Justified or to save ourselves, we should obey them out of love.

***************
(RR:) I would say, "The Mosaic Covenant (MC) Law is the Law of the Creator of Heaven and earth who loved you so much He came and died to bring you back to be with Him. He said His Law was given to Israel because He loved them with an everlasting love. He gave it to them as a loving Father gives good guides for living to his children. Scripture says they were given for their good. They are Laws for a good, healthy, safe, long, prosperous, happy life here on earth for as long as you're here.
Just as the MC was given to Israel, the New Covenant (NC) is also given to the "'Houses of Israel and Judah"' whose fathers came out of Egypt, not to the church or the believers or to gentiles.( Jer.31). It is not in place yet. Hebrews says that Yeshua is (not was) the mediator of the NC. If He is a mediator, then the agreement has not as yet been made. It does have a blood seal which Yeshua shed on Calvary, waiting for "those days"' of Jer.31, when the Houses of Israel and Judah are regathered.
So where does that leave us believing gentiles?
The promise of salvation is made for the whole world, Jew and gentile, says John 3:16. It is a promise that does not need membership in any covenant to receive.
The covenants were made with the stated parties and God. The whole world is still under the Noahide covenant. The circumcised children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still part of the Abrahamic Covenant. The MC was made with those who are given the Land in Joshua 9-13 and their patrilinear descendents.

The believing gentiles are mentioned in the MC. We are called 'gers' in Numbers chapter 15 and Israel is commanded to love us. Numbers 15:30-31 is the most important verses believing gentiles need to read.
Nu 15:30 But the soul that intentionally disobeys, whether he be a native born or a ger, the same blasphemes the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people
Nu 15:31 because he hath despised the Word of the LORD, and hath broken His commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
So even though we have not made the MC with God, we as His children are still given His Laws. Yes, all of them that we can do, we are to do, for our own good. But only those who trust in God the Father and love Him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, will want to do them.
And, Yes, we mess up, but Yeshua has promised He will forgive if we go to Him for forgiveness.
Israel is a special nation with a job to be a light to the nations and carry the Words given to them to the rest of the world. Their reward is the Land nearest to where He will reign when He returns. They will be His Holy priesthood.
Ruth

<snipped>

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#171

Post by ruth » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:51 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote: [Question to Yeshua's follower:]
<snipped>

What of Jesus showing compassion to the harlot instead of following the LAW and stoning her?
<snipped>
....................

The verses about Jesus and the woman that commited adultery are John 8:1-11
But Jesus went to (A)the Mount of Olives.
2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and (B)He sat down and began to teach them.
3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5"Now in the Law (C)Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6They were saying this, (D)testing Him, (E)so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7But when they persisted in asking Him, (F)He straightened up, and said to them, "(G)He who is without sin among you, let him be the (H)first to throw a stone at her."
8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10(I)Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "(J)I do not condemn you, either Go From now on (K)sin no more."]
****************************

I would say that in the MC Law, there is a rule that both people caught in the act of adultery by 2 or more witnesses are to be brought for trial and if found guilty, stoned.
First, the scribes and pharisees brought only a woman. They did not bring a man and a woman. If they had witnessed adultery happening, both parties are to be brought to justice.
Yeshua knew the Law, He gave it. They knew it also but were only doing this to trick Him into showing His ignorance or lack of authority to judge.
We are not told what He wrote but I would think the first thing would be "Where is the man?" Where are the 2 witnesses?"
They had no witnesses and they had no man. What they were doing was against the Law of God. They were committing a sin by bringing a false charge and in the MC Law, to do so meant they would be given the punishment they intended for the falsely accused.
Now the woman might have been guilty of adultery or some other sin but that was between her and God. The court of justice is based on the MC Law and by it she could not be punished.
Ruth
**********************************

<snipped>

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#172

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:12 pm

ruth wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote: [Question to Yeshua's follower:]
<snipped>

What of Jesus showing compassion to the harlot instead of following the LAW and stoning her?
<snipped>
....................

The verses about Jesus and the woman that commited adultery are John 8:1-11
But Jesus went to (A)the Mount of Olives.
2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and (B)He sat down and began to teach them.
3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5"Now in the Law (C)Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6They were saying this, (D)testing Him, (E)so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7But when they persisted in asking Him, (F)He straightened up, and said to them, "(G)He who is without sin among you, let him be the (H)first to throw a stone at her."
8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10(I)Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "(J)I do not condemn you, either Go From now on (K)sin no more."]
****************************

I would say that in the MC Law, there is a rule that both people caught in the act of adultery by 2 or more witnesses are to be brought for trial and if found guilty, stoned.
First, the scribes and pharisees brought only a woman. They did not bring a man and a woman. If they had witnessed adultery happening, both parties are to be brought to justice.
Yeshua knew the Law, He gave it. They knew it also but were only doing this to trick Him into showing His ignorance or lack of authority to judge.
We are not told what He wrote but I would think the first thing would be "Where is the man?" Where are the 2 witnesses?"
They had no witnesses and they had no man. What they were doing was against the Law of God. They were committing a sin by bringing a false charge and in the MC Law, to do so meant they would be given the punishment they intended for the falsely accused.
Now the woman might have been guilty of adultery or some other sin but that was between her and God. The court of justice is based on the MC Law and by it she could not be punished.
Ruth
**********************************

<snipped>
Noteworthy as well, this passage is not in the most reliable manuscripts. It is almost certainly a later addition. Most modern translations include it because it was in the KJV but it is noted in the margin that it is a disputed entry into the cannon.

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#173

Post by R7-12 » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:20 pm

The written word of God clearly demonstrates that Almighty God has given us His Sabbaths for particular reasons, all of which are for our benefit because He loves us.

The commands concerning these Holy Days cannot be retracted because they are truth and He changes not. Nowhere in Scripture is it written that these days are no longer to be observed. All the disciples and apostles and early church observed every one of them as it is written.

These days will also be kept under Christ after his return.

There is nothing that can be said contrary to the written word and remain standing.

It is written,

“For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord, “so shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” (Isaiah 66:22-23, NKJV).

How can anyone deny that the Sabbath command remains and must be respected and observed according to the will of God, and not be found guilty of transgressing the law of God?

If you think you can, please explain the text above with sufficient detail and scriptural referrences to address every point it raises.

R7-12

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#174

Post by R7-12 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:50 am

It appears no one is able to respond to the question concerning Isaiah 66.

Let's try another approach.

If the weekly day of worship instituted by God, blessed by God, and contained in His divine law, was kept by God's servants from the beginning until it was altered by the RCC from the seventh day (the Sabbath) to the first day of the week (Sol Invictus), and later accepted by its daughter — Protestantism, and all her offspring to come, why will all flesh (Jew and Gentile alike) observe the seventh day Sabbath in the millennium under Christ?

Perhaps an even more important to ask than that is, if the New Moons will be kept as days of worship under Christ at that time, as they were until the time of Constantine, the Athanasians, and the RCC, why not during the interval between then and Christ's return? Does God change?

I would really like to hear the explanations for these questions from those who don't believe the law of God needs to be kept by God's servants today.

Any takers?
R7-12

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#175

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:55 am

R7-12 wrote:It appears no one is able to respond to the question concerning Isaiah 66.

Let's try another approach.

If the weekly day of worship instituted by God, blessed by God, and contained in His divine law, was kept by God's servants from the beginning until it was altered by the RCC from the seventh day (the Sabbath) to the first day of the week (Sol Invictus), and later accepted by its daughter — Protestantism, and all her offspring to come, why will all flesh (Jew and Gentile alike) observe the seventh day Sabbath in the millennium under Christ?

Perhaps an even more important to ask than that is, if the New Moons will be kept as days of worship under Christ at that time, as they were until the time of Constantine, the Athanasians, and the RCC, why not during the interval between then and Christ's return? Does God change?

I would really like to hear the explanations for these questions from those who don't believe the law of God needs to be kept by God's servants today.

Any takers?
R7-12
Have you interacted with these main articles on our board?

Perhaps you could start there.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/seventhday.html

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/daniel7-9.html

I know you're not seventh day adventist, but the issues appear parallel.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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#176

Post by R7-12 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:49 pm

Thanks for the articles but they are inadequate and the first one is in error.

The first article fails to understand what law Christ fulfilled therefore the entire argument against the keeping of the Sabbath is based upon a false premise. It also seeks to confine the use of the word “law” to refer only to the five books of Moses as a whole, not allowing for specific aspects within the law to be referred to by the term “the law.” This is another fundamental error that we don't even fall into when dealing with civil or criminal law today, so why apply it to the Bible? To handcuff those who answer according to the truth and rightly divide the word of God. It also provides an escape for those who cannot answer fundamental questions based on the relevant texts like Matthew 5:18 & 19:17.

The second article deals specifically with Adventist interpretations of prophecy which, in my opinion is irrelevant to the topic of the Sabbath at hand and therefore, I will not address it here.

The bottom line is that neither article removes the seventh day Sabbath from required observance according to the law which still remains as it is spiritual in nature, emanates from God, and will continue to exist.

Isaiah 66:22-24 and Zechariah 14:16-19 are two witnesses of the truth that immediately expose articles such as these which speak against observance of the Sabbaths of God, as baseless and false.

If you're interested in a discussion on the matter then perhaps using someone else's work to defend your position could be kept to a minimum, otherwise discussions become third party arguments that cannot lead to a positive resolution.

To better understand what law Christ spoke of in Matthew 5:17, ask yourself what law was the first covenant system involving temple sacrifices unable to fulfill — that which only Messiah could?

The law requires the death of the sinner for breaking the law in the first place (1 John 3:4, Romans 6:23). That is the price that satisfies the law. The problem is, if we all pay the price we owe to the law for sin, we would all have to die and remain dead. Thus everlasting life is precluded from such a scenario. Instead, God provided a means to prevent everyone having to serve the death penalty until faith came in the form of Christ's sacrifice. That temporary system consisted of the physical temple ordinances of substitutionary sacrificial offerings for sin. What must be remembered however, is that this system did not promise life to the offerer, but rather, physical purification from sin (Hebrews 9:13) and physical promises for keeping covenant (Deuteronomy 28).

Thus, the law had not yet been fulfilled.

Here's another hint, the entire issue concerning law in the NT has nothing to do with the observance of the commandments of God — that was never in question. Keeping that in mind when reviewing the texts in the NT that have always been assumed to speak of obedience to the commands of God, will allow one to begin seeing what the real context of these passages are and then deduce precisely which law is being spoken of. That is, if one is willing.

R7-12

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#177

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:39 pm

Here's some questions for those wanting to take on the yoke of the law and place it upon others.

Much is directed to Seventh Day Adventism. Feel free to identify where you differ if you need to do so.

The primary issue to me is why it is necessary, as argued in other threads, to infer information from Acts 15 which stands alone and concludes with no reference to the Sabbath at all in the conclusion and then twist Galations to address circumcision instead of Mosaic law?

Further, I'd like to hear those defending Sabbath keeping to state, clearly and without further obfuscation what the reward for sabbath keeping is, the punishment for sabbath breaking and as clearly and simply as possible whether it has any bearng on salvation.

http://www.bible.ca/7-sabbath-questions.htm
1. If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath. Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath?
2. Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about he Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Gen 14:20, Circumcision: Gen 17:10, Marriage: Gen 2:24 & Gen 34:9. Why would God leave out the "all important" Sabbath command?
3. If the fact that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone proves they are forever, then whatever happened to the two stone tablets that God gave Adam at the beginning of time? Why is Moses the first one to see a stone tablet written by the finger of God?
4. Why is the weekly Sabbath commandment never quoted in the New Testament?
5. Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?
6. Why is there no example of exclusively Christians coming together on the Sabbath day as a church or prayer meeting after the resurrection of Christ?
7. Why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy?
8. While Paul taught in the synagogues up to 84 times, why does the Bible never say he kept the sabbath?
9. If Paul's action of preaching to non-believers 84 times in the book of Acts on the Sabbath make him a Sabbath keeper, is a Seventh-day Adventist pastor a Sunday keeper if we invite him for 84 Sundays in a row to teach us about God's word?
10. How could Adam, Noah and Abraham keep the Sabbath, when Deuteronomy 5:2-4 says that the 10 commandment covenant (see was "not made with any of the fathers of Israel who lived before Moses."
11. If we must follow the example of Jesus in all things like keeping the Sabbath, then why do Sabbatarians not follow the example of Jesus in circumcision, animal sacrifices and keeping Passover?
12. If the Sabbath was for Gentiles and Adam, Noah and Abraham, then why is the Sabbath a sign to remind their exodus from Egypt? Exodus 16:23,29; 31:13-18. Were either Abraham or Seventh-day Adventists ever slaves in Egypt?
13. If the Sabbath law is still in force, then why do they not stone their own members when they break the Sabbath as the law said?
14. Ellen G. White, who is considered inspired by Seventh-day Adventists, said that the Pope changed the Sabbath in about 321 AD. Why do all Adventists today reject their inspired prophet and say the change of the Sabbath occurred in about 140 AD? If White was wrong about this, was she wrong when she traveled to heaven and saw the 4th commandment glowing brighter than all the rest?
15. If the current position of the Seventh-day Adventist church is that the change from Saturday to Sunday took place in 140 AD, doesn't that mean that they have come a long way from Whites 325 AD and have only 40 more years to travel to reach the truth of the Apostolic age?
16. If the change from Saturday to Sunday happened, why is there absolutely no discussion of this change of actual day for the first 600 years of church history. Merely calling Sunday the Sabbath doesn't count!
17. If Sabbatarians reject White's inspiration, that Constantine change the Sabbath day to Sunday, why do they keep bringing Constantine up as proof? If Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday, why does here merely legislate that work must stop on Sunday with no actual mention of the day being moved?
18. If the first/old covenant was abolished according to Heb 8:13 and the Ten commandment law was that first covenant (Ex 34:27-28; 1 Kings 8:9,21; Heb 9:1-4), then why do Sabbatarians want to keep the first/old covenant?
19. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians never kept the Sabbath (7th day) and have always worshipped on Sunday?
20. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians ate the Lord's Supper every Sunday in the tradition of Acts 20:7?
21. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians always called Sunday the Lord's Day because, they said, this was the day Jesus rose from the dead?
22. Why has no Sabbatarian every produced even one historical quote (75-500AD) that says Christians kept the Sabbath?
23. If the Sabbath is not a ceremonial law, then why is it lumped into the same identical class of "holy convocations" as the rest of the Jewish feast days? Lev 23:2; Ex 20:9; 31:17
24. If the 10 commandments remain but the book of law was abolished, then why did God put two copies of the 10 commandments in the book of the law? Ex 20; Deut 5
25. How can there possibly be an difference between "the law of God" and the "Law of Moses" when God gave the Law of Moses (Ezra 7:6; Neh 8:1) and Moses gave the Law of God (Neh 10:29; 2 Chron 34:14)?
26. If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why are the Jewish feast days called part of the Law of the Lord? (2 Chron 331:3)
27. If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why in a single chapter of Nehemiah 8are the following phrases all used interchangeably: "book of the law of Moses" v1, "the law" v2, "book of the law" v3, "the law of god" v8, "book of the law of god" v18?
28. Why are the two most important commandments contained within the "ceremonial law of Moses that was Sabbatarians say was nailed to the cross? (Matthew 22:36-40)
29. Why did Jesus say Moses gave the 10 commandment law: "Thou shalt not kill" in Jn 7:19?
30. If the Sabbath cannot change, because God cannot change (Mal 3:6) then what about all the other feast days and laws that changed? Heb 7:12. And why did Jesus give a "a new commandment" in John 13:34?
31. If the ten commandments are going to be in heaven, what is the use of "thou shalt not commit adultery", if there is no marriage in heaven? Lk 20:34-35
32. If the Sabbath was given to all men, why were Gentiles called "strangers". Why were Gentiles outside the gates not required to keep the Sabbath? Ex 20:10.
33. How could the Sabbath be a sign between God and Israel, if all nations were expected to keep it? Ex 31:17
34. Why did God send the Jews into Babylonian Captivity for breaking the Sabbath, but never ever criticized any Gentiles for never keeping the Sabbath?
35. Why did God often criticize the Gentiles via the prophets for moral violations, but never for not keeping the Sabbath?
36. If the Gentiles were supposed to keep the Sabbath, why are they called "strangers of the Covenant" in Eph 2:12?
37. If the term, "the law" always means the 10 commandments, then why is Leviticus called "The Law" in Mt 22:35ff, Numbers called "The Law" in Mt 12:5, Deuteronomy called "The Law" in Mt 22:35f, Psalms called "The Law" in Jn 10:34,45, Rom 3:10-12; 3:13-14,19, the Prophets called "The Law" in 1 Cor 14:21 and the Ten commandments are called "The Law" that is abolished in Rom 7:4-7?
38. If the term "commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then why are the laws that are not part of the ten commandments but called commandments in Mt 19:16-19 not also included?
39. If the term "commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then what did Paul call the injunction for prophet's wives to keep silent in the assemblies, a "commandment of the Lord" in 1 Cor 14:37?
40. If the term "keep my commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then why is this a new commandment? Jn 15:10-12 + Jn 13:34.
41. If only the ten commandments are going to endure until heaven and earth pass away, why did Jesus say the law AND THE PROPHETS? Mt 5:17-18
42. When Jesus was asked, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" why did Jesus NOT QUOTE from the 10 commandments, but from the abolished ceremonial law of Moses? Matthew 22:36-40
43. If the 10 commandments are the highest and most complete expression of God's will, then why did it lack the two most important commandments? Matthew 22:36-40 where is the prohibition against drunkeness, homosexuality and fornication?
44. If the 10 commandments are the highest and most complete expression of God's will, then why did Jesus give a new commandment to "love one another, even as I have loved you" John 13:34. Where were the Jews told to love their neighbor as Yahweh loved them?
45. If Christians worshipping on Sunday is equal to Sun Worship, then is Adventists worshipping on Saturday equal to Saturn worship?
46. If Sabbatarians will boldly quote "scholars" who are really Bible trashers and skeptics who claim "the origin of Sunday worship is entirely pagan", like Arthur Weigall in his ridiculous little book, "the paganism in our Christianity", will these same Sabbatarians turn a few pages later where these same authors say the origin of the Sabbath is also pagan? "I have, already mentioned that Sunday, too, was a pagan holy-day; and in this chapter I propose to discuss the origin of this custom of keeping one day in the week as a Sabbath, or "day of rest,' and' to show that the practice was forcefully opposed by Jesus Christ. The origin of the seven-day week which was used by the Jews and certain other peoples, but not till, later by the Greeks or Romans, is to be sought in some primitive worship of the moon (The Paganism in Our Christianity, Arthur Weigall, 1928, p209,210-211)
47. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt 12:1-14; Mk 2:23f, Lk 13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn 5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-16.
48. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did God grow tired of the Jews keeping it and told them to stop keeping the Sabbath? Isa 1:13-14 Did God ever grow weary of anyone not committing adultery or murder, and tell them to be immoral and kill?
49. If the Sabbath is a moral law, how could Jesus break it without sinning? Jn 5:18
50. If one of the distinctions between the ten commandments was proven by the fact they were written by the finger of God, why did Moses copy them out twice with his own hand? How can there be any distinction between the 10 commandments in the ark and the book of the law beside the ark, if the book contained two copies of exactly what was in the ark?
51. Why are the terms "ceremonial law" and "moral law" never found in the Bible. Why is the word ceremonial or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW and why is the word moral or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW?
52. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why do "God's laws" and "the law of God" contain ceremonial laws. Why do "Moses law" and the "law of Moses" contain moral laws?
53. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why does the "law of God" command animal sacrifices Lk 2:23-24 and the "law of the Lord" contains burnt offerings 2 Chron 31:3; 1 Chron 16:40?
54. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why is the book of the law filled with moral laws not contained in the 10 commandments?
55. If there is a distinction between the Law of the Lord and the Law of Moses, why in 2 Chron 35:26 are "the acts of Josiah and his deeds of devotion as written in the law of the Lord"?
56. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why does the Law of God include new moons, solemn feast days: Ps 81:3-4?
57. If there is a distinction between the Law of the Lord and the Law of Moses, why did the law tell Israel to dwell in tents: Neh 8:14?
58. If Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, then didn't Mt 5:17 say that only then would they be abolished before heaven and earth pass away? If the law and the prophets are still in force, doesn't that prove Jesus didn't fulfill the law completely?
59. When you ask me, "if the 10 commandments are abolished, does that mean we can steal", can I ask you, "when you travel from Canada to the USA, does that mean you can steal? Is it possible that two completely different "codes of law" (law of Moses vs. law of Christ) have the same laws just like Canada and the USA?
60. If the Jewish law against eating pork was abolished by Christ, why do Sabbatarians continue to enforce what they call, "the ceremonial law of Moses": Mk 7:18-19; 1 Tim 4:1-4; Rom 14:2; Acts 10:9-16
61. If the Jewish law of Tithing is forbidden in 2 Cor 9, why do Sabbatarians practice from "ceremonial law of Moses"?
62. If the Jewish Sabbath was abolished in Col 2:14-16, yet Sabbatarians keep the Sabbath, which itself is the only ceremonial law of the 10 commandments?
63. Why do you practice Tithing which is Prohibited: 2 Cor 9:7 forbid Eating Pork, which is Permitted: Mk 7:18-19 and keep the Sabbath which is Abolished: Col 2:14-16? Aren't all three of these ceremonial laws?
64. When Sabbatarians attempt to prove there is a distinction between the moral vs. ceremonial laws, the law of God vs. the Law of Moses, the 10 commandments vs. and the book of the law, and they shown countless bible passages that destroy any distinction Sabbatarians might dream up, will they at least be honest and admit they need to find some definitive way to create this false distinction that does not exist in the Bible and will try again tomorrow?
65. Why do you refuse to accept that Col 2:16 contains the Old Testament pattern of referring to the Jewish holy says in a yearly, monthly, weekly sequence as in 1 Chronicles 23:31, 2 Chronicles 31:3, 2 Chronicles 8:13, 2 Chronicles 2:4, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, Hosea 2:11, Galatians 4:10?
66. If the plural "sabbaton" in Col 2:16 cannot refer to weekly Sabbath day, then why does plural "sabbaton" refer to the weekly Sabbath day in Matthew 28:1, Luke 4:16, Acts 16:13, Exodus 20:8 (in Septuagint) Leviticus 23:37-38 (in Septuagint)?
67. If in Col 2:16, the lack of the definite article before the word "Sabbath" in the Greek proves it cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath, then why does the weekly Sabbath lack the definite article in Matthew 28:1, John 5:9, 10, 16?
68. If Isa 66:23 proves the Sabbath will be in heaven, will the new moon festival also be there? "from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath".
69. If Hebrews 4 teaches we are to keep the weekly Sabbath, then why does the text say we are to enter a rest that none of the Jews at the time of Joshua in the promised land ever experienced in v 8?
70. If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "eternal" then won't all the Jewish feasts and circumcision also endure because it is also called eternal in Gen 17:10-14 (same Hebrew word used)
71. If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "holy" then won't all the Jewish feasts also endure forever because they are also called holy?
72. If the Sabbath will endure forever because God hallowed it, then won't Solomon's temple Ps 65:4; 1 Ki 9:3 and the vessels in the tabernacle Ex 40:9; Num 31:6; 1 Ki 8:4 also endure forever because God hallowed them too?
73. If the Sabbath will endure forever because it was an eternal sign between God and his people, then shouldn't we also still practice circumcision Gen 17:11 and Passover Ex 12:13 because it too is called an eternal sign between God and his people?
74. If it is only through the Sabbath that we can know that it is God who sanctifies us Ex 31:13, then what ever happened to faith in Christ sanctifying us? Any if we should therefore keep the Sabbath, then we must also build the tabernacle, for the Bible says through it we may know it is God who sanctifies us Ezel 37:28?
75. If the fact that the Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament after Pentecost proves it is still in force, then does the mention of The Day of Pentecost Acts 2:1, The days of unleavened bread Acts 12:3; 20:6, Days of Purification: Acts 21:26, Animal Sacrifices: Acts 21:26, Circumcision: Acts 16:3, Temple worship: Acts 24:12 prove we must keep these too because they are also mentioned and must therefore also still be in force like the Sabbath?
76. If Seventh-day Adventists want to deny that their official position is that worshipping on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast, do they realize that the "inspired" Ellen G. White, Uriah Smith, the Advent review and Leo Schreven (who conducts "Revelation seminars" today) all call it the mark of the beast?
77. Christians can find 21 reasons why the first day of the week is significant to their faith as Christians in the New Testament. Can Sabbatarians find even one reason in the New Testament why the Sabbath has any meaning distinct to Christians?
78. Did you know that the Jewish Sabbath was significant to the Jews because it was a memoral of this present physical creation and their deliverance from the bondage of Egypt and that the first day of the week is a memorial of our new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:7) and our deliverance from the bondage of sin. (Gal 4:4-5; Eph 1:7)
79. Did you know that regardless of whether the Sadducee's or Pharisee's method of calculating Pentecost was used the year Christ died, both would calculate Pentecost in Acts 2:1 as the first day of the week. Did you also know that the official position of the Seventh-day Adventist church was that Pentecost in Acts 2:1 fell on a Sunday that year?
80. Do you realize that the phrase, "that no collections be made when I come" in 1 Cor 16:2 proves the Christians were forbidden from saving up their offerings each week at home and demanded they put it into a common treasury every Sunday?
81. Did you know that 1 Cor 16:2 actually says, "EVERY 1st day" because the same Greek phrase is also found in Acts 13:14 "appointed elders in EVERY church". Did you know that you must give every 1st day of the week in to the church's common treasury?
82. If Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath rather than a Friday - Sunday duration because you demand a full 72 hours in the grave, then why did Jesus count the Friday - Sunday duration as three days in Lk 13:32?
83. If Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath rather than a Friday - Sunday duration because you demand a full 72 hours in the grave, why is exactly a 72 hour period called 4 days by Peter in Acts 10:3+9+23+24+30?
84. If the fact that the 10 commandments were written in stone, that proves they will never be abolished, then where was Adam's stone copy of the 10 commandments? Why did God not give Adam a stone copy once for all time? Why is it that Moses was first person in history to not only see the 10 commandments, but the first person to hold the stone tablets upon which the 10 commandments were written? Why do Seventh-day Adventists argue that the ten commandment law is no longer written in stone, but in the flesh of the human heart in 2 Corinthians 3:3? (Of course 2 Cor 3:3 says the 10 commandments were abolished and the new Covenant, the law of Christ is written on human hearts)
85. If only the 10 commandments we can "live", then why does Ezek 20:11 say this of the "ceremonial law", "I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live." (Ezek 20:11)?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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#178

Post by R7-12 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:56 pm

It is written,

If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17b, NKJV).

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3).

The Scriptures above are the word of God and they are truth. The commandments of God are an integral part of the law of God and thus, also of the plan of God, therefore, what law do you refer to as a yoke of bondage to God's servants?

R7-12

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#179

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:11 pm

R7-12 wrote:It is written,

If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17b, NKJV).

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3).

The Scriptures above are the word of God and they are truth. The commandments of God are an integral part of the law of God and thus, also of the plan of God, therefore, what law do you refer to as a yoke of bondage to God's servants?

R7-12
You'd do well to quote the entire passage and examine context. Do you wish to address the issue above as well?

Galatians 5 WEB

1 Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don't be entangled again with a yoke of bondage

___________________________________


13 For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only don't use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another.

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don't consume one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

I rather suspect long passages in context have more to say than snippets juxtaposed to each other.

You have not answered the main question posed above either.
Further, I'd like to hear those defending Sabbath keeping to state, clearly and without further obfuscation what the reward for sabbath keeping is, the punishment for sabbath breaking and as clearly and simply as possible whether it has any bearng on salvation.
What say you?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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#180

Post by R7-12 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:45 pm

Further, I'd like to hear those defending Sabbath keeping to state, clearly and without further obfuscation what the reward for sabbath keeping is, the punishment for sabbath breaking and as clearly and simply as possible whether it has any bearng on salvation.
The Sabbaths of God are not kept to receive reward.

The Sabbaths of God are times the Most High El has appointed, blessed, and sanctified specifically for the benefit of those who obey His voice. For Almighty God has placed His presence upon these times and they are therefore sacred. Thus, it is our opportunity to learn to KNOW God the Father and Jesus Christ whom He sent, through worship, study, praise, reflection, revelation, meditation and adoration.

We are commanded to work and do all our labor six days, but the seventh day of the week is the Sabbath day, a day of rest and worship of the one true God, in it we are not to work or engage in our desires but to keep it holy. God is holy and He commands us to be holy. We are sanctified by setting ourselves apart for His purpose and His will and staying faithful to what is written.

Breaking the Sabbaths of God do in fact pay a reward in the form of wages.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jon 3:4).

For all Your commandments are righteousness (Psalm 119:172b).

And all Your commandments are truth (Psalm 119:151).

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law (Galatians 5:19-23).

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27 So he answered and said, “ 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' ” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:16-17).

Those who seek salvation must first be forgiven. If one sins and does not repent, neither can they be forgiven. The consequence of breaking the law is sin. Sin not repented for remains and the wages remain. Sins repented and forgiven are washed away.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:18-19).

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law (James 2:10-11).

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 3:4).

Erroneous theology is always confused, disjointed and self-seeking. The truth is not complicated if sought in love through the spirit of God.

The word of God stands and His law stands — as it is written.

R7-12

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