The Sabbath

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
Jbuza
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#106

Post by Jbuza » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:05 am

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#107

Post by Jbuza » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:18 am

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R7-12
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#108

Post by R7-12 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:22 am

Nowhere in the texts quoted does it say anything about the commandments of God being annulled or made void or done away.

If it is your opinion that the Sabbath commandment is no longer in effect and that God's people are no longer required to keep them or the New Moons or the Feasts of God, please explain the following Scriptures correctly and accurately according to all the Bible says on the matter.

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles (Zech. 14:16-19, NKJV).

“For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” (Isaiah 66:22-24, NKJV).

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#109

Post by R7-12 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:32 am

Please provide the Biblical explanation of how the term under the law was undertsood in the first century church.

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#110

Post by R7-12 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:33 am

Col. 2 is a powerfeul example of NT Scripture supporting obedience to the law of God.

Consider verses 16 & 17.

The church was responsible for the stewardship of the the truth (1 Cor. 4:1). Thus it was not appropriate for our brethren in Colossae (for example) to allow ANY INDIVIDUAL to pass judgment on our eating or drinking (we abstain from unclean meats but partake in wine) or on the way we keep Holy Days, New Moons or Sabbaths, but THE BODY of Christ only.

The English word is was added to the last part of the verse - check it out!

The truth is always so simple yet difficult for many to to see because it's not easily recognisable for them amidst all the deeply ingrained traditions of men.

R7-12

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#111

Post by Jbuza » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:57 am

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#112

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:09 am

R7, I've not really been following this closely (though I want to go back later and read the whole thing) . . . but I did see one comment you made that I wanted to note:
The English word is was added to the last part of the verse - check it out!
I'm not sure how you are getting this? The Greek in question here is το δε σωμα του χριστου. Now, it is true that an absolute wooden translation of this is "but the body of Christ." BUT, it cannot be rendered this way as it stands alone. It is unfair to say that the English translators added the word "is." It is a standard grammatical construct in Greek to leave eimi out . . . it made sense in Greek, but we supply it in Enlish.

Consider this English statement:

"Go to the store."

Now, I copy and paste it this way:

"You, go to the store."

Have I added anything? No, absolutel not. The English implies the "you." "Imply" here doesn't mean that it is optional . . . it means that it is expected. We all know that for a proper English sentence there must be both a subject and a verb. In the above, "you" is the subject, so I inserted it. I haven't added anything.

The same is true with this construct in this passage.

Now, if I may, I don't understand what point you are trying to make by saying the "is" is added anyway? Would you prefer it rendered: "things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the body of Christ." What would you mean by that?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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#113

Post by authentic » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:23 am

here is some addition scripture for thought:

2 Corinthians 3
1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.


16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I don't know how much more scripture you need to prove that the Law of Moses is done away with. Jesus nailed it all when he died on the cross. But you know what, i have a question. If we are supposed to obey the law of Moses (if its not done away with), then what was the meaning of Christ's death on the cross?

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#114

Post by Yeshua's follower » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:33 pm

Jbuza wrote:Paul goes on to say that the ordinances (laws) have been nailed to the cross of Jesus, and that you shouldn't let anyone judge you with respect to what you eat or drink or in respect to holydays or moons or sabbaths. I guess if some came along and said you are not keeping these things we judge you, that would be bad wouldn't it? If someone said you are doing wrong by not keeping the sabbath, than I should point him to collosians 2 and say those things are nailed to the cross you cannot judge me in these things.
I used to think that the verses in Colossians 2 proved that the laws of God were "done away" or "nailed to the cross", but I realized that it isn't talking about Jesus doing away with Gods laws.
First of all, "ordinances" does not mean "Gods Laws". Notice that the phrase "handwriting of ordinances" restates the phrase immediately before it. "Having wiped out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us" parallels "having forgiven you all trespasses." So Paul could not be referring to the law itself but rather to the record of our transgression of that law-SIN! Paul isn't saying that the law is against us, he is saying that sin is against us and that the ommandments and doctrines of men are blotted out. Sin is what Christ nailed to the cross.

Here is Colossians 16 and 17...
"16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Messiah"
Notice that these things ARE a shadow of things to come. Not WERE a shadow but ARE a shadow. Just like R7-12 Pointed out, we will be keeping these things in God's kingdom. (See Zech. 14, Isa 66)
Something else to note is that the words in parentheses are added by the translator. The NIV really butchers this verse alot!
So the verse should read, "16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
17 which are a shadow of things to come; BUT THE BODY OF MESSIAH"
So paul was telling them that they should only let the body of messiah judge them and that they shouldn't let pagans judge them in these things. He was telling them that they may think they're strange for not following their pagan practices and instead following Torah, but that they should pay them no heed!
authentic wrote:[I don't know how much more scripture you need to prove that the Law of Moses is done away with. Jesus nailed it all when he died on the cross. But you know what, i have a question. If we are supposed to obey the law of Moses (if its not done away with), then what was the meaning of Christ's death on the cross?
I hope that what I said kind of answered your question, even though you weren't really asking me.

Your Friend in Christ,
Jeremy

Jbuza
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#115

Post by Jbuza » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:58 pm

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#116

Post by R7-12 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:27 am

If all of God's commandments were nailed to the cross and thus made void or obsolete, then the brethren at Collosae would never again observe any of the Hoy Days, New Moons, or Sabbaths, would they?

I mean if they're gone then they're gone, right? It's simple logic.

Therefore, if that were the case then neither Paul nor anyone else would ever be explaining to any Christian that they are not to allow any individual to judge them on their eating and drinking with regard to Holy Days, New Moons, or Sabbaths but the body of Christ only (the church).

If we're not keeping any of them then we never have to worry about anyone having difficulties with how we keep them. It would become a non-issue and judgment irrelevant.

It would be like saying, “let no one therefore judge you in how you sacrifice an animal upon the altar for your sins.”

The requirement of the law which animal blood could not fulfill was fulfilled by Christ, therefore we would never be required to shed animal blood again and neither could anyone therefore judge us in how we do it.

It's axiomatic. Therefore your argument falls and God's word stands unblemished.

R7-12

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#117

Post by Jbuza » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:16 am

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#118

Post by authentic » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:29 am

I'm not saying that the Law in it self is done away with, but it has been fulfilled in the body of Jesus. Keep in mind that the ceremonial laws such as (tithing, sacrifice offerings, the dietary laws, the sabbath, new moon oberservations...etc) were a SIGN of the coming Christ and his relationship to his people. Now that he came in the flesh, died, and has been resurrected we should no longer observe these laws. We are now responsible to take on the character of our God which is holiness. And even the bible (not me) says that the entire law is summed up in one word and that is Love. If you love God then you will love your neighbor, you won't covet his/her possessions, you won't kill, you won't steal, you won't committ adultury, you won't fornicate, you won't commit homosexuality, you will help those in need...etc. the entire law hangs on that ONE principle, no longer on a tablet.. you understand?

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#119

Post by Byblos » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:08 am

authentic wrote:I'm not saying that the Law in it self is done away with, but it has been fulfilled in the body of Jesus. Keep in mind that the ceremonial laws such as (tithing, sacrifice offerings, the dietary laws, the sabbath, new moon oberservations...etc) were a SIGN of the coming Christ and his relationship to his people. Now that he came in the flesh, died, and has been resurrected we should no longer observe these laws. We are now responsible to take on the character of our God which is holiness. And even the bible (not me) says that the entire law is summed up in one word and that is Love. If you love God then you will love your neighbor, you won't covet his/her possessions, you won't kill, you won't steal, you won't committ adultury, you won't fornicate, you won't commit homosexuality, you will help those in need...etc. the entire law hangs on that ONE principle, no longer on a tablet.. you understand?
To a large extent I do agree with you. What I'm not clear about is what happens if you do fall out of 'love' so-to-speak and you do commit one or more of those transgressions, what happens then?

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#120

Post by R7-12 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:25 am

Jbuza,

It appears you misunderstsood what I was saying in my post. Notice it starts with If.

Here's the point of it. IF the church was not required to keep those commandments then why were they told not to let any individual judge them on how they are keeping them, but the body only?

R7-12

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