The Sabbath

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
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Yeshua's follower
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#91

Post by Yeshua's follower » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:28 am

Jbuza wrote:No I do not think that he did. His teachings are not full of warnings to keep the law, his teachings are full of warnings to put the law in it's correct place and to enjoy the liberty that Jesus offers.
I believe that Paul did uphold ALL of the torah/law. He states in 1 Corinthians 11:1, "Follow my example as I follow the example of Messiah." From this scripture we know that Paul, like Jesus, honored the torah and upheld it. Jesus told us the it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for the least stroke of pen to drop from the law in Matthew 5:18
Paul even says in Romans 7:22, "I delight in the Law of God."
In Acts 21 Paul faces a dilemma. When he was returning to Jerusalem, he was shown "how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the Torah." But among these believing Jews, a false accusation has surfaced against Paul. What was the false accusation?
"They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs."
This is the very charge that the christian church has said today, but it was first done here in Jerusalem. So how does Paul respond to this accusation? Did Paul indeed teach against the torah and against the costums?
"22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come"
The men ask Paul to answer this false accusation with a public action. They offer a solution by saying, "23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law."
They not only ask Paul to take the Nazarite vow, but to help four others do the same, as a public statement that Paul was NOT teaching the Jews to forsake Torah.
Throughout the rest of the book of Acts Paul continues to state that the accusation leveled against him is false.
In Acts 24:13 he says, "3 And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me." No one had any evidence that Paul had ever taught against the Torah, much less that he even stopped practicing the Torah.
So one has to wonder what Paul is talking about in Galatians or Romans. But these books show how Paul is against WORKS or LEGALISM, not against the law.
Jbuza wrote:Since I have tried to address your questions perhaps you could address this one from Galatians.

4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law?
In this passage of scripture Paul is talking to the Pharisees or anyone else that thought that they could save themself by follow the law. They want to be under the law and try to save themself, but they don't even understand it, because if they did understand it, they would know that they CAN'T SAVE THEMSELVES!

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#92

Post by authentic » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:46 am

Yeshua's follower wrote:
Jbuza wrote:No I do not think that he did. His teachings are not full of warnings to keep the law, his teachings are full of warnings to put the law in it's correct place and to enjoy the liberty that Jesus offers.
I believe that Paul did uphold ALL of the torah/law. He states in 1 Corinthians 11:1, "Follow my example as I follow the example of Messiah." From this scripture we know that Paul, like Jesus, honored the torah and upheld it. Jesus told us the it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for the least stroke of pen to drop from the law in Matthew 5:18
Paul even says in Romans 7:22, "I delight in the Law of God."
In Acts 21 Paul faces a dilemma. When he was returning to Jerusalem, he was shown "how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the Torah." But among these believing Jews, a false accusation has surfaced against Paul. What was the false accusation?
"They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs."
This is the very charge that the christian church has said today, but it was first done here in Jerusalem. So how does Paul respond to this accusation? Did Paul indeed teach against the torah and against the costums?
"22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come"
The men ask Paul to answer this false accusation with a public action. They offer a solution by saying, "23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law."
They not only ask Paul to take the Nazarite vow, but to help four others do the same, as a public statement that Paul was NOT teaching the Jews to forsake Torah.
Throughout the rest of the book of Acts Paul continues to state that the accusation leveled against him is false.
In Acts 24:13 he says, "3 And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me." No one had any evidence that Paul had ever taught against the Torah, much less that he even stopped practicing the Torah.
So one has to wonder what Paul is talking about in Galatians or Romans. But these books show how Paul is against WORKS or LEGALISM, not against the law.
Jbuza wrote:Since I have tried to address your questions perhaps you could address this one from Galatians.

4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law?
In this passage of scripture Paul is talking to the Pharisees or anyone else that thought that they could save themself by follow the law. They want to be under the law and try to save themself, but they don't even understand it, because if they did understand it, they would know that they CAN'T SAVE THEMSELVES!
Yeshua, jbuza is correct. Paul clearly states that we are no longer bound by the law of Moses. The law of Moses carried out the law in a manner of rituals, ceremonies, and sacrifices. Christ's death fulfilled the entire law, so that we are justified by believing on him. This is the reason why the scriptures say that the Old Law was a foreshadow of Christ, it was a guide pointing to him. Now we are under grace. The law now is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (God himself) not on tablets. If i went to every clear cut scripture that backs this argument then i would be here from now until the end of the day. The entire book of Galations, focused on those who desired to keep the law. And keep in mind that if you keep one part of the law but stumble or don't recognize another part then you are guilty of the entire thing. The law of love embraces the entire law of Moses in Christ himself.

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#93

Post by IRQ Conflict » Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:09 pm

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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#94

Post by R7-12 » Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:50 pm

The fact of the matter is the Sabbath day never changed one iota.

Those who had political agendas took it upon themselves to assert what they wanted the masses to observe and which satisfied their own self-serving goals. Behind all that of course was the adversary.

There has not been a single argument ever raised that carries a shred of truth or evidence in claiming the the will of God does have to be obeyed by His elect.

If there should be one who disagrees, please provide what is, in your opinion, the single greatest argument to the contrary, and we shall see if it stands.

R7-12

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#95

Post by Jbuza » Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:24 am

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#96

Post by R7-12 » Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:38 am

Thank you Jbuza for demonstrating the very fact that not one shred of truth or evidence can be produced claiming the the will of God does have to be obeyed by His elect.

The texts you put forward don't even remotely come close to the topic at hand.

R7-12

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#97

Post by Jbuza » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:10 am

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#98

Post by Jbuza » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:36 am

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authentic
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#99

Post by authentic » Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:11 pm

sounds like r7-12 is a seventh day adventist or something, i think they still observe the dietary laws as well. It doesn't make sense when the scriptures gives us freedom and liberty from such binding and strict laws.

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#100

Post by IRQ Conflict » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:18 pm

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Tit 3:10 A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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#101

Post by Jbuza » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:28 pm

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#102

Post by IRQ Conflict » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:21 pm

I do want to try and please God in my personnal life, and am not exactley sure how the LAw fits into that if it does.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The word tells us to avoid foolish arguments. If Truth needs to be taught, Amen.

Christ Jesus came so that we would have life and have it more abundantly. So He saying that the two comandments fulfill ALL the Law and the Prophets.

Meaning exactly that! Christ wanted to simplify things for us, look what the pharasies did with the law!

If your faith in Christ leads you to have compasion on others and you end up obeying the law because of your love for Him who sent Him, well, don't come crying to me :lol:

God Bless You Jbuza.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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#103

Post by R7-12 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:04 am

sounds like r7-12 is a seventh day adventist or something, i think they still observe the dietary laws as well. It doesn't make sense when the scriptures gives us freedom and liberty from such binding and strict laws.
The or something comment may be the most accurate thing said about me.

Now let me get this straight…
Keeping such strict and binding laws such as calling the Sabbath day a delight and resting from all labour and all work to praise and worship and learn on the only blessed and hallowed day of the week, the only true and righteous and perfect God, is absolutely senseless when you realize that our interpretation of scripture can give us freedom and liberty from having to obey our Maker.

and…
Strictly avoiding the flesh of unclean animals, which is a commandment for our own good, by obedience to the strict and binding laws of God doesn't make sense when we can justify our freedom and liberation from such unnecessary rules by applying our own understanding of the scriptures.

The Bible clearly and without mistake declares in literally dozens of Scriptures that we must obey God, obey His law, obey His commandments, obey the Sabbaths, New Moons and Holy Days, obey the Food laws, and in fact EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Matt. 4:4).

The Bible clearly and without mistake declares in many different passages that God is perfect, He does not change, His law is not done away, and that His people will be keeping the Sabbaths, New Moons and Feast of Tabernacles in the millennium under the rule of Jesus Christ. Thus God's divine decrees stand firm and so do all His words.

The reality is the only commands that people will express to have any issue with are those that require some action on their part, which require some active and deliberate effort to do something commanded of God.

Intriguing isn't it that those same commands are the central instructions in the Bible on how we are to properly worship the one true God. It really comes down to a matter of faith. Either we believe and thus trust God and hence do what He says or we rebel and claim that obedience such as He has described in His written word really doesn't apply to His people but rather, are a strict legal burden which is in fact evil and which no one can bear.

The law which emanates from the only true God is characterized as old, ineffective, useless, void, a burden, a curse, a ministry of death, unprofitable, worthless, unnecessary, even sinful if one obeys it.

And still not one shred of Scriptural evidence has ever been shown to even suggest the slighted of these things could ever be true. Personal interpretation however, has often claimed just that.

It matters not that countless Scriptures clearly say the law of God is perfect, righteous and good, for the lawless one will forever appeal to the vague or unclear or seemingly ambiguous texts which they do not understand correctly and say, “well, what about this verse eh?”

R7-12

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#104

Post by IRQ Conflict » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:25 am

The Bible clearly and without mistake declares in literally dozens of Scriptures that we must obey God, obey His law, obey His commandments, obey the Sabbaths, New Moons and Holy Days, obey the Food laws, and in fact EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Matt. 4:4).

Apparently someone has never heard of the "New Covenant" I will for reference sake post a few scriptures from God. But I really would suggest you re read what God say's about the old laws and "traditions of men".

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

You could say the first covenant was with flesh and the New Covenant is in and of the Spirit. What man did with the old covenant Christ fixed on the cross. AMEN!
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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#105

Post by Jbuza » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:57 am

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