The Sabbath

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
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Jbuza
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#76

Post by Jbuza » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:49 am

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R7-12
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#77

Post by R7-12 » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:12 pm

Jbuza

You said,
Who are those who are not under the law, but have the faith of Abraham? Clearly there are some who are not under the Law who have the faith of Abraham who was justified by that faith. Cheesh wait he was pre LAw he must be in trouble also.
This shows you have not benefited from our discussion at all. Abraham was not pre-law and neither was Adam for that matter. Both were pre-Israel and pre-Mt. Sinai but the law is spiritual and has thus always existed (Rom. 7:14). Cain and Able offered sacrifices according to the law of God and Cain's was not acceptable because it was not a blood sacrifice which is required by the law (Gen. 4:2-7). The Sabbath also predated mankind and was given for our benefit (Gen. 2:1-3, mark 2:27). Your assertion here is erroneous.

Jbuza wrote,
R7-12
Your brief story indicates that your are one of the rare people who will actually allow the written word to take precedence over what you have been taught or believed to be true.

I just want to say I am a bit insulted by this, but that's OK I'm sure you didn't mean that anyone who considers themselves free from the law is rejecting scripture and damned. Hmmm, perhaps that is exactley what you meant, not sure. I have my personal belief about the law because of what the scripture says concerning the gentile Christians.
At first I asked myself, “Why would Jbuza be insulted because I allow the written word to take precedence over what I've been taught by men or formerly chose to believe?”

Isn't this our duty, our responsibility? Are we not called to live by every word of God as it is written? We ought to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29).

And then I realized by your next comments why you are insulted by the written word. The truth of God convicts everyone who will not do what God commands. God's law reveals sin and thus makes known how we are to conduct ourselves according to His divine decrees. If we do not live by God's commands, allowing the Holy Spirit to place them in our minds and write them upon our hearts, in conjunction with our applying all of the spiritual principles of the law in our thoughts and behaviour, then we risk being convicted as lawless and disobedient.

One of the main problems with the mind of carnal man and his inability to comprehend the law is his inability to understand the concepts related to the law and what aspects of the law Paul explains in his letters and epistles.

One of the concepts that the carnal mind cannot grasp is referred to as “under the law.” The carnal antinomian mind of man assumes being under the law means being bound to observe the commandments of God. This is absolutely false. All it takes is a simple review of what the Bible says about the relationship between sin and the law and then applying these principles to the Scriptures on the law that we have difficulty with.

The most important fact that we must never forget is that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). When we break the law of God, that is when we engage in thoughts or behaviour that are contrary to the principles of the commandments of God, we are committing sin. With this simple Biblical fact in mind, let's look at an NT text that speaks of being under the law.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:19-20, NKJV).

At the end of this passage we are reminded that sin is revealed by the principles in the law concerning conduct and the sentence immediately preceding this says “by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight.” Everyone automatically assumes that the the deeds of the law are the commandments of God. The fact is the commandments were never spoken of as the deeds or works of the law.

The word in Greek translated as deeds or works is 2041 ergon and it means, work, business, employment, labour. It carries the meaning of earning something by one's effort like wages.

How is not coveting your neighbor's wife work that earns you something? How does not stealing earn you anything? What about honouring your parents? What labour is involved in treating your parents with love and respect? How does not having any gods before the one true God translate into earning wages?

These are expressions of love according to the law of God. They are how we learn to correctly love God and our fellowman through our thoughts and our conduct.

Show me where God said keeping the commandments would result in being made righteous.

Show me where God said keeping the commandments justified anyone.

Show me where God said keeping the commandments earned anyone salvation.

The fact of the matter is God never said those things and that is not what NT Scripture infers either.

R7-12

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#78

Post by R7-12 » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:13 pm

This logical conclusion demands that the meaning of under the law must refer to an aspect of the law of God other than the moral precepts referred to as the commandments of God.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets (Rom. 3:21, NKJV).

Here we have the declaration that prophecy concerning the law has been fulfilled which the law itself prophesied of. The prophecy concerns the revealing of the righteousness of God. What is the righteousness of God? The sacrifice that He gave for us in His son the Christ.

Jesus Christ was revealed as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. This fulfillment of prophecy is further explained in Hebrews.

It also shows us that perfection or completion of the plan of God concerning the way of salvation was not done through the Levitical priesthood.

Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), (Heb. 7:11, NKJV).

What law did the people receive under the priesthood? What law did they perform daily? Why would some think perfection could come through the law performed by the priesthood?

Perfection,

5050 teleoisis

from 5448; TDNT - 8:84,1161; n f

1) a completing, a perfecting
1a) fulfillment, accomplishment
1b) the event which verifies the promise


Fulfillment or completion was not accomplished through the Levitical priesthood. The activities of the priesthood pointed to the promise, their works pictured the promised one to come but they did not establish or fulfill or complete the promise. What was accomplished through the temple ordinances was physical purification through the sacrifices and cleansing legislations.

For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14how much more shall the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:13-14a, NKJV).

If perfection were through the Levitical priesthood, what further need would there be for another priest after the order of Melchizedek who would enter the holy of Holies once for all by his blood and not that of animals? He was not after the order of Aaron — through the flesh, but by promise through the spirit. Thus the priesthood changed because it was foreordained by God that Christ would replace the temporary physical priesthood and the animal blood, with himself to fulfill the requirement of the law once, for all.

The requirement of the law was the death of the sinner. This Christ took on himself for us and thus we were bought back or redeemed by his blood which covers our transgressions of the law. The change in the law was foreordained by Almighty God. It was to be that way from the beginning and that involved the temple system, the priesthood and the animal sacrifices — not the Ten Commandments or other aspects of the law. The animal sacrifices which required great effort on the part of the offerer could only provide temporary physical purification and not permanent redemption from the wages of sin.

The animal sacrifices could not justify the individual unto salvation.

No matter how much or how often one performed the sacrifices (works of the law), one could not become justified according to the law, only temporarily cleansed.

This was the failure of the Israelites and later the Pharisees. They believed they could attain to the righteousness which IS of the law by performing many animal sacrifices or works of the law. They of course never attained the righteousness which IS of the law through their works because by continuing in them they rejected the sacrifice from God. They rejected the cornerstone who then became a stumbling stone for them because of their unbelief (Heb. 9:30-33). The Gentiles however did attain the righteousness of the law by pursuing it through trusting God. They accepted the Lamb of God as the fulfillment of the righteous requirement of the law and trusted in God that if they followed Him exclusively and faithfully He would save them from death. This is the death we all deserve for breaking the law of God which is called sin.

The perfect sacrifice given for us in His son the Messiah is according to God's law. His law states that if you break His commandments you have earned the wages of death (Rom. 6:23). If however, you are lead to repentance by the goodness of God and turn from breaking the law and accept the blood sacrifice of Christ in your place (Rom. 2:4), then, if you endure to the end you shall be saved from everlasting death which is the second death (Matt. 24:13, Rev. 20:14; 21:8 ).

That is the truth of the matter and so says Scripture.

R7-12

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#79

Post by R7-12 » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:17 pm

To be under the law is to be in subjection to the sacrificial ordinances of the first covenant and the temple ordinances. These were given as a tutor or guide or schoolmaster to teach us about the seriousness of committing sin, the possibility of forgiveness, the need for a substitute sacrifice, mercy, grace, redemption, the need for a perfect and permanent High Priest with a perfect sacrifice. This law of temple sacrifice was to lead the offerer to Christ. He would be revealed through the activities involved in the sacrificial ordinances to those who had ears to hear and eyes to see and trusted God that this system was for their benefit. Thus the Israelites were held under the requirement to offer animal sacrifices on a regular basis. This required much work and physical effort and sacrifice but the point of it would be enlightenment concerning the prophecies of Messiah, the need for faith in God, and the promises of everlasting life.

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:24).

Israel and later Judah however would never attain these spiritual principles, attributes and understanding (with a few exceptions) because of their disobedience, so God fulfilled the prophecy concerning His son and salvation and made the blessing available to the Gentiles and through another language (Isa 28:11).

t further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the lawb. 7:11b-12, NKJV).

The change in the law involved Christ replacing the order of Levitical priesthood with the order of Melchizedek. He replaced the animal blood with his own. The physical temple therefore is no longer required because the sacrifice is to be fulfilled in each of us, hence we are the temple (1 Cor. 3:17; 2 Cor. 6:16).

In the first covenant each individual established the law by faithfully performing the sacrificial ordinances which included offerings for sin. In the second covenant the law concerning sacrifice is established not by works (offering animal blood) but by faith God through Christ's sacrifice. Thus the law of sacrifice is established through faith.

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law (Rom. 3:31, NKJV).

Establish,

2476 histemi,

a prolonged form of a primary stao { stah'-o} (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); TDNT - 7:638,1082; v

1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
1a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
1a2) to place
1b) to make firm, fix establish
1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
1b31) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
1c) to set or place in a balance
1c1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)

The law of God is made to stand, to remain firm, fixed in place, kept intact, established through faith.

even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law (Rom. 3:21-27, NKJV).

The law of works (animal sacrifice) does not exclude boasting because one can say, “I have faithfully offer to my God all the sacrifices He requires and further, I offer additional sacrifices such as thank offerings and gift offerings everyday. I am righteous by the blood of animals which was given by God for sin.”

However, we cannot boast in Christ's sacrifice because we are not involved in earning what he has made possible nor can we be. There is no way to do anything that will allow us to say to God, “There now, I have faithfully done these things so give me everlasting life because I have earned it.”

Keeping the commandments of God faithfully does not even enter the equation for a second. They were never given to earn salvation; they were never considered a means to earn salvation or to be justified by them - ever.

The works of the law were given for the purifying of the flesh from sin but not justification unto everlasting salvation (Heb. 9:13; 10:4).

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body (living contrary to the law of God), that you should obey it in its lusts. 13And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God (keeping His commands). 14For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace (sin had dominion over those in the first covenant because they did not receive justification through animal blood). 15What then? Shall we sin (break the law of God) because we are not under law (no longer required to offer animal blood) but under grace (Christ offered his blood in our place)? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin (lawbreaking) leading to death, or of obedience (lawkeeping) leading to righteousness? (Rom. 6:12-15, NKJV).

Those who were under the first covenant required redemption from sin because animal blood and the physical priesthood could not accomplish that as we have seen. Those who performed the sacrifices (Israel) were all servants or slaves to this system — and for good reason, they had to be forced to relearn and rethink and undo what they had learned in Egypt for 400 years. The sacrificial law could have lead them all to Christ if they had been obedient to God and His system, but they were not. Because of the inadequacy of the law because it was weak (animal blood & physical priests) God accomplished what the law of sacrifice could not by sending His son,

to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons (Gal. 4:5, NKJV).

Compare Rom. 8:3-8.

The Jews who rejected Christ wanted instead to remain under the law, that is they wanted to continue trusting in the animal sacrifices for their righteousness even though the law told them to look for the coming Christ.

They didn't trust God and that He would reveal the righteousness that is not apart of the physical temple system involving animal blood. They didn't listen to the witness of the law itself and what the Prophets foretold concerning the Messiah.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets (Rom. 3:19-21, NKJV).

R7-12

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#80

Post by R7-12 » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:25 pm

In several letters Paul dealt with those Jews who rejected the sacrifice of Christ and insisted that everyone whether Jew or Greek had to be circumcised (physical sign and seal of the first covenant) and keep the law of Moses (temple ordinances), instead of accepting Christ.

This is what the entire issue was about in the Acts 15 conference. The only points that the brethren thought the Greek Christians should be particularly mindful of concerning the law was to not eat meats offered to idols, not to eat blood or anything strangled, and to stay away from sexual immorality. Any idea why these particular parts of the law were important for the Gentiles to remember?

Pagan rituals associated with Greek philosophy were rampant in their cities at this time in history. The Gentiles often sacrificed animals without first draining the blood, which was always done by God's people according to the law. They instead would strangle the animals to death before offering them. Thus when they offered strangled animals to idols the blood remained in the meat. That's why you couldn't eat meat offered to idols — it was against the Food Laws of the OT!

Greek philosophy taught that men were not born with spirituality inherent within them. Only women had this natural spirituality, thus men had to receive it from the women. How was this done? Ever wonder why temple prostitution was endemic among the Greeks? It was as common as buying strangled meat, filled with blood, offered to idols.

The Gentile converts needed reminding of the law of God concerning fornication and adultery because these things were considered part of their culture.

Many Greeks believed sacrifices were required because this is what their culture taught, so when certain Jews came around insisting this, it seemed right to many converts to do so even after having received the gift of the Holy Spirit at baptism and being taught correctly about the law and sacrifice.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? (Gal. 4:21, NKJV).

The allegory involving Sarah and Hagar are all about the two covenants. One was according to the flesh and of works (offering sacrifices to deal with sin), and the other was based on the promises of God according to faith (Christ's sacrifice). Again, this has nothing to do with commandments such as, “Thou shall have no other Gods before Me”, or “Honour your father and your mother”, “Thou shall not covet thy neighbour's possession”.

The reason this argument concerning the Ten Commandments is raised is to try to do away with what we are required to do in faithful obedience to our Creator. So the false assertion is made that anyone who tries to do what God says is trying to earn salvation. What utter nonsense! In fact it is utter blasphemy and heretical on the face of it.

The issue was never about not keeping the commandments of God. Obedience to God was never questioned as a basic requirement. The main issues in the NT are about accepting Christ over the sacrificial system of the first covenant which God prophesied about. Much is written in the NT concerning the sacrifice of Christ replacing the temple system. Nowhere is obedience to the commandments ever an issue.

Today however, the issue is about the commandments of God and trusting and obeying God rather then men. So-called Christianity for the past 1800 years has allowed the customs and traditions and commandments of men to override the word of God. It's no wonder the majority believe the law is not required but what is absolutely necessary is to worship three gods or you're not a “Christian.” That bit of non-biblical heresy attacks the first four commandments as it did right from the start in 325 CE. If you start off on a false premise, or in this case many more than one, everything that is built upon it or after it will not be true or trustworthy.

Isn't it strange how something that is given to us from the only perfect, righteous, true, living God, the YHVH of Hosts, the El, Elyon, our Father Eloah, is twisted in the minds of men and made to appear inadequate, old, imperfect, requiring destruction, a curse, evil, flawed, and not pleasing to Him even though it is from Him?

That is the argument of the Adversary. He wants to make us believe that at least one thing God did was wrong. Mainstream Christianity has fallen into this trap in so many ways and perhaps none as crucial as the issue of the law itself. Show me one instance where God made a mistake — other than the assertion that the law is a curse to God's people. Where is the precedence for this? Or is the law the only error in God's plan of salvation?

If the Adversary can deceive concerning the First Great Commandment then all the other lies and deception just follow on from there.

I have spoken the truth to you.

What you do with what you know or have received is what's important.

Your words shall be your burden. Let us see how you will respond.

R7-12

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#81

Post by Jbuza » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:42 am

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#82

Post by Jbuza » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:57 am

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#83

Post by Jbuza » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:44 am

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#84

Post by R7-12 » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:05 pm

Jbuza said,
I am not offended by you allowing the written word to take precedence, and I agree that it is right to do so. I was offended by the fact that you appear self righteous in your attitude about the law, and once someone came along that had your same attitude you made your statement. The statement also said, well those people that don't have this attitude are letting the teaching of men have precedence over the Bible. I have showed ample evidence for my position from the Bible and not once have I appealed to the teachings of man, and that is what insulted me.
So you're insulted because I said to Yeshua's Follower that he appeared to allow the written word to take precedence over what you have been taught or believed to be true?
The written word did not insult me, God did not insult me, YOU INSULTED ME.
What I wrote was to Yeshua's Follower. Why would my kind words to him insult you? How is it that the kindness I showed to someone was an insult to you?

I said,
Pagan rituals associated with Greek philosophy were rampant in their cities at this time in history. The Gentiles often sacrificed animals without first draining the blood, which was always done by God's people according to the law. They instead would strangle the animals to death before offering them. Thus when they offered strangled animals to idols the blood remained in the meat. That's why you couldn't eat meat offered to idols — it was against the Food Laws of the OT!
Your response,
Nope it is because the Apostles by the Holy SPirit told the Christians not to do it.
Just because. Is that it? Right. God doesn't have any reason for it He just demands it. Right? Kind of like a law don't you think? Except the law is not based on absolute truth, just on a whim. Wouldn't it appear evident that because you have no answer for why it was unlawful to eat the meat of strangled animals, that you simply do not know the answer?

Your non-answer wishes to assert there isn't precedence in the word of God concerning eating the blood of animals. You may wish to consider the following texts, Lev. 3:17; 7:26-27; 17:10-16, Deut. 12:13-16.

You quoted me and then replied,
You wrote
The most important fact that we must never forget is that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin
So are you asserting that the text you quote opposes or replaces 1 John 3:4?
I have never made the claim, nor would I dare to say that Gods commandments and judgements are wrong, but I suspect you are right our adversary would like to convince us of that. IT does what God sent it out to do; it shows us how much we need Jesus Christ, that Word of God that created all the worlds.
If you have not said the commandments of God are wrong, then what do you call something that is useless and is a curse?

You said on Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:33 pm,
There is nothing for me in the Law, it is a curse to Man.
Then you try to cover that up by saying the following,
I am not sying it isn't good and just, but I am not capable of pleasing God through the law, so I do not submit myself to the Law.
Here's another example from Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:10 pm,
I am in no way trying to say that it is a bad thing for you to try to keep the Law (it is a curse to you, though),
In the same post you said,
The keeping of the Law is nothing. It is not how a son loves a father.
Then, in your next breath you say,
I agree that it is true that if we do Love our father we will also be keeping his commandments, as I recall there are Ten.
Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. 11Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh. (James 3:10-12,NKJV).

You have discredited yourself with your own words.

It's your assertion that you are not saying the law isn't good or just, or that it is wrong or a bad thing. Then by inference you must be saying that the law is just and good, that it is right. If so, then we must DO what is right and just and good. By your own logic you establish that the law must be obeyed.

If your claim is true that “Jesus nullified the Law in decrees,” then the law must have been wrong otherwise what would be the need to nullify something that is right? You wrote,
What does it mean that JEsus nullifed the Law in decrees?
You said on Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:20 pm,
I don't seek to restrict my action based on wether anything is legal or not, that is not what Governs my behavior. I am sorry to say that often my behavior is governed by my own desires, but I know that When my works are tested by the Fire nothing will survive that is simply the keeping of the Law.
Very interesting admission. You say your conduct is not based on what is right and wrong. What is right and what is wrong is called the law. There is man's law which we must be obedient to (as far as it does not conflict with divine law) and there is God's law which takes precedence over all of man's laws. So are you saying that you don't obey mans laws either? Well I suppose you have already answered that question. Nevermind.

You said on Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:52 am,
OK fine I do not want to keep the Law.
I asked,
Perhaps I could ask you a hypothetical question? If you could accept for a moment, for the sake of discussion, that Almighty God requires your obedience to His law, specifically the Ten Commandments, the clean and unclean food laws, the Sabbaths, New Moons, and annual Holy Days. What would it take for you to get to the place where you would genuinely want to keep His law?
You never did answer the question as it was asked did you? Don't bother, your posts make it clear that you cannot see or refuse to see that we are to obey our heavenly Father because His words are life.

I asked you the following question in an earlier post,
So now I would ask, how is this forgiveness you seek possible? In other words, how is it when you or I repent that we can be forgiven for sins which, when committed, put us in debt according to the law?
How is our debt to the law incurred by sin, paid?
I provided the answer,
The answer is, Christ's sacrifice - his shed blood pays our debt when we repent, making forgiveness possible.
You said,
I do not agree with this. I believe that when I identify with Jesus' sacrifice, and have faith that he will present me before God guiltless before the Law because he said he would, that all of my sins will be forgiven.
Then I serve a different God than you. My God requires that I repent for every sin I commit. When I come to Him with a broken and contrite heart, asking for His forgiveness, He is merciful and forgives me.

I said,
First, it is not before the law that one is presented clean but before God. You cannot be presented clean and blameless before God if there are sins for which you have not repented.
You said,
I do not agree to this.
I wrote,
Christ has paid every debt you repent of.
Your response,
Disagree. I will be made righteous by faith.
One's faith must be in the fact that God can and will raise us from the death sentence we deserve, possible only by Christ's selfless act of sacrifice by which he paid our debt, if we are not rebellious but faithful followers of Christ and God.

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#85

Post by R7-12 » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:13 pm

You wrote,
I agree God's Law is good and True.
If it is good and true then it is good for you and truth for you. How can you then call it “nothing” and “a curse”?

You quoted me,
You wrote,
These are expressions of love according to the law of God. They are how we learn to correctly love God and our fellowman through our thoughts and our conduct.
Then you said,
Yes I am sure the Pharisees of Jesus day would agree with you, but you and they are wrong. We do not come to knowledge and love of God by keeping the Law, but we come to a knowledge and love of God and that results in our keeping the Law (not the Levitical law
You failed to include the whole quote, I said,
How is not coveting your neighbor's wife work that earns you something? How does not stealing earn you anything? What about honouring your parents? What labour is involved in treating your parents with love and respect? How does not having any gods before the one true God translate into earning wages?

These are expressions of love according to the law of God. They are how we learn to correctly love God and our fellowman through our thoughts and our conduct.
You admit that even the Pharisees would agree with the written word but you won't.
For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven Matt.5:20, NKJV).
Jesus said to him, “ 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38“This is the first and great commandment. 39“And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40“On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matt. 22:37-40, NKJV).

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law (Rom. 13:10, KJV).

but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments (Ex. 20:6; Deut. 5:10).

Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; (Deut. 7:9).

Therefore you shall love the LORD your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always (Deut. 11:1).

And it shall be that if you earnestly obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the LORD your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul (Deut. 11:13).

And I said: “I pray, LORD God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments (Nehemiah 1:5).

'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. 31“And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31).

If you love Me, keep My commandments … 21“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” (John 14:15 & 21).

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you (John 15:9-12).

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Gal. 5:13).

And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also (1 John 4:21).

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:2-3).

This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it (2 John 6).

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all (James 2:8-10).

This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it (2 John 6).

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all (James 2:8-10).

Loving God and our fellowman is not possible without obedience to the law of God for through obedience to the spiritual principles within the commandments, we learn to love as God loves.

True Godly love is beyond what carnal man can comprehend. When this love from God it is revealed, it is dismissed or mocked. Why?

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Rom. 8:7-8 ).

That's why Almighty God requires our voluntary obedience. When we demonstrate real trust in God and do what he commands, then we are given the promise through faith,
…the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32b).

If we do not keep God's commandments then He does not abide in us and we do not abide in Him. Period. End of argument.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us (I John 3:24).

Only those who keep God's commands abide in Him and He in us and only they receive the Spirit of God - and Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35b).

I repeat,
Isn't it strange how something that is given to us from the only perfect, righteous, true, living God, the YHVH of Hosts, the El, Elyon, our Father Eloah, is twisted in the minds of men and made to appear inadequate, old, imperfect, requiring destruction, a curse, evil, flawed, and not pleasing to Him even though it is from Him?

That is the argument of the Adversary. He wants to make us believe that at least one thing God did was wrong. Mainstream Christianity has fallen into this trap in so many ways and perhaps none as crucial as the issue of the law itself. Show me one instance where God made a mistake — other than the assertion that the law is a curse to God's people. Where is the precedence for this? Or is the law the only error in God's plan of salvation?
The law of God emanates from the very nature of God and thus remains true as God is true.

All things spoken MUST be according to the law and the testimony or there is not light (or dawn) in them who speak - so says the Most High God (Isaiah 8:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:19).

R7-12

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#86

Post by Jbuza » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:43 pm

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#87

Post by Jbuza » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:49 pm

Acts

15:4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all the things God had done with them. 15:5 But some from the religious party of the Pharisees who had believed stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise the Gentiles and to order them to observe the law of Moses.”
15:6 Both the apostles and the elders met together to deliberate about this matter. 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that some time ago God chose me to preach to the Gentiles so they would hear the message of the gospel and believe. 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, has testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 15:9 and he made no distinction between them and us, cleansing their hearts by faith. 15:10 So now why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 15:11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they are.”
15:12 The whole group kept quiet and listened to Barnabas and Paul while they explained all the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 15:13 After they stopped speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 15:14 Simeon has explained how God first concerned himself to select from among the Gentiles a people for his name. 15:15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written,
15:16 'After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David;
I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 15:28 For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us not to place any greater burden on you than these necessary rules: 15:29 that you abstain from meat that has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what has been strangled and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from doing these things, you will do well.

15:17 so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord,
namely, all the Gentiles I have called to be my own,' says the Lord, who makes these things 15:18 known from long ago.
15:19 “Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 15:20 but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.



Romans

3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law
4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 4:14 For if they become heirs by the law, faith is empty and the promise is nullified. 4:15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either. 4:16 For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants — not only to those who are under the law, but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 7:6 But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.
9:30 What shall we say then? — that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness obtained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith, 9:31 but Israel even though pursuing a law of righteousness did not attain it. 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 9:33 just as it is written,
10:4 For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.
13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 Corinthians

1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world foolish? 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching.
: To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law. 9:21 To those free from the law I became like one free from the law (though I am not free from God's law but under the law of Christ) to gain those free from the law.
10:23 “Everything is lawful,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is lawful,” but not everything builds others up. 10:24 Do not seek your own good, but the good of the other person. 10:25 Eat anything that is sold in the marketplace without questions of conscience, 10:26 for the earth and its abundance are the Lord's. 10:27 If an unbeliever invites you to dinner and you want to go, eat whatever is served without asking questions of conscience.

Galatians

3:10 For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” 3:11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. 3:12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us

3:19 Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary. 3:20 Now an intermediary is not for one party alone, but God is one. 3:21 Is the law therefore opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 3:22 But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given — because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ — to those who believe. 3:23 Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. 3:24 Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian

4:1 Now I mean that the heir, as long as he is a minor, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything. 4:2 But he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 4:3 So also we, when we were minors, were enslaved under the basic forces of the world. 4:4 But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights. 4:6 And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!” 4:7 So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son, then you are also an heir through God. 4:8 Formerly when you did not know God, you were enslaved to beings that by nature are not gods at all. 4:9 But now that you have come to know God (or rather to be known by God), how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless basic forces? Do you want to be enslaved to them all over again? 4:10 You are observing religious days and months and seasons and years. 4:11 I fear for you that my work for you may have been in vain. 4:12 I beg you, brothers and sisters, become like me, because I have become like you. You have done me no wrong!

4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law?

5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery. 5:2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you at all! 5:3 And I testify again to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 5:4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace! 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait expectantly for the hope of righteousness. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision carries any weight — the only thing that matters is faith working through love.

5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity to indulge your flesh, but through love serve one another. 5:14 For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.”

6:12 Those who want to make a good showing in external matters are trying to force you to be circumcised. They do so only to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For those who are circumcised do not obey the law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they can boast about your flesh.

Ephesians

2:14 For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility, 2:15 when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees.

Philippians

I lived according to the law as a Pharisee. 3:6 In my zeal for God I persecuted the church. According to the righteousness stipulated in the law I was blameless. 3:7 But these assets I have come to regard as liabilities because of Christ. 3:8 More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things — indeed, I regard them as dung! — that I may gain Christ, 3:9 and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness — a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness.

Colossians

2:14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.

1 Timothy

1:6 Some have strayed from these and turned away to empty discussion. 1:7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or the things they insist on so confidently.
1:8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 1:9 realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 1:10 sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers — in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching.

Hebrews (written to Jewish Christians)
(This is edited down a lot, but I urge you to go read it)
7:11 So if perfection had in fact been possible through the Levitical priesthood — for on that basis the people received the law — what further need would there have been for another priest to arise, said to be in the order of Melchizedek and not in Aaron's order? 7:12 For when the priesthood changes, a change in the law must come as well. 7:18 On the one hand a former command is set aside because it is weak and useless, 7:19 for the law made nothing perfect. On the other hand a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. 7:20 And since this was not done without a sworn affirmation — for the others have become priests without a sworn affirmation, 7:21 but Jesus did so with a sworn affirmation by the one who said to him, “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever'” — 7:22 accordingly Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently since he lives forever. 7:25 So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
8:6 But now Jesus has obtained a superior ministry, since the covenant that he mediates is also better and is enacted on better promises.
8:13 When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.
9:15 And so he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the eternal inheritance he has promised, since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first covenant. . . But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice. 9:27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, 9:28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

James (written to Jewish Christians)

1:25 But the one who peers into the perfect law of liberty and fixes his attention there, and does not become a forgetful listener but one who lives it out — he will be blessed in what he does. 1:26 If someone thinks he is religious yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his heart, his religion is futile. 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

2:8 But if you fulfill the royal law as expressed in this scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 2:9 But if you show prejudice, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as violators. 2:10 For the one who obeys the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 2:11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a violator of the law. 2:12 Speak and act as those who will be judged by a law that gives freedom. 2:13 For judgment is merciless for the one who has shown no mercy. But mercy triumphs over judgment.

4:11 Do not speak against one another, brothers and sisters. He who speaks against a fellow believer or judges a fellow believer speaks against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but its judge. 4:12 But there is only one who is lawgiver and judge — the one who is able to save and destroy. On the other hand, who are you to judge your neighbor?
4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into this or that town and spend a year there and do business and make a profit.” 4:14 You do not know about tomorrow. What is your life like? For you are a puff of smoke that appears for a short time and then vanishes. 4:15 You ought to say instead, “If the Lord is willing, then we will live and do this or that.” 4:16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 4:17 So whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin.

1 John

2:3 Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments. 2:4 The one who says “I have come to know God” and yet does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in such a person. 2:5 But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him. 2:6 The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked.

3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness. 3:5 And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 3:6 Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil. 3:9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God's seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness — the one who does not love his fellow Christian — is not of God.

5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been fathered by God, and everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him. 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God: whenever we love God and obey his commandments. 5:3 For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments. And his commandments do not weigh us down, 5:4 because everyone who has been fathered by God conquers the world.

Yeshua's follower
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#88

Post by Yeshua's follower » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:49 pm

Before I say anything, I want to quote scripture from 2 Peter 3:15-18. It has really jumped out at me while looking into all of this.

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Jbuza,
there are a couple of phrases that I want to bring up. The first is 'Under the Law', which is a theological phrase that means one has the Law as their judge and condemner on the Day of Judgment. But we now, by faith in Yeshua, have died to self, and are no longer 'under the Law'. Because we are dead 'in Messiah' the Law has no legal jurisdiction over us, to condemn us any longer. Yeshua has taken our just punishment and has met the righteous requirement of the Law (Rom. 8:4). The Law can still convict us, showing us where we are 'in the flesh' but it can never condemn us to Hell.
The next phrase, 'Works of the law' is someone who performs the Commandments (works), to earn salvation. But there are problems with this because God never said keeping his commandments will earn eternal life.
The two phrases overlap and a person who walks in one will be in the other also. If one is using the performance of the Commandments to try and obtain salvation ('works of the Law'), they will necessarily be placing themselves 'under the Law' and be righteously condemned by God's Law. They have not relied on what God has done for them in Messiah Yeshua, but on themselves. And no flesh will be justified before God. I don't keep the law for salvation because I know that I am justified by Messiah. We should keep the law because it is the will of God for all of his people. God's law is a definition of the first two commandments, it tells us how to love God and how to love our neighbor.
'On these two Commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.' (Matthew 22:40)

In pauls letters he talks a lot about these two phrases and sometimes he is mis-understood for the things he says. We know that Paul obeyed the law(torah) and did it out of love for God. Before I go in any farther, I want to know if you agree with what I have said so far.

Jbuza
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#89

Post by Jbuza » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:27 pm

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Jbuza
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#90

Post by Jbuza » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:35 pm

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