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Re: Women in church

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:26 am
by Philip
Of course, from a competence standpoint, there are some men who have absolutely no business leading in any capacity whatsoever! :lol:

Re: Women in church

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:12 am
by 1over137
What do you think about the following Bible verses? Does it lead to some justifying for women being leaders?
(just asking stuff I was given to look at, so I look at the Bible, and if in doubt posting stuff here - so thank you for that)

Lydia’s Conversion in Philippi Acts 16:11-16 (NIV)
11 From Troas we put out to sea and sailed straight for Samothrace, and the next day we went on to Neapolis. 12 From there we traveled to Philippi, a Roman colony and the leading city of that district[a] of Macedonia. And we stayed there several days.

13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

...

40 After Paul and Silas came out of the prison, they went to Lydia’s house, where they met with the brothers and sisters and encouraged them. Then they left.
edit: this link is interesting read on Lydia http://www.osservatoreromano.va/en/news ... h-philippi

Re: Women in church

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:50 am
by Kurieuo
Hana, here's a very detailed look at the relationship between and Christianity, which digs deeply into many questions and issues often raised. I respect many of Glenn Miller's articles, he was always so thorough.

Re: Women in church

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:04 am
by 1over137
Thank you for another source. Can you please fix the link so that I can read that source? ;)

Re: Women in church

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:25 pm
by Philip
K's source appears to make what should be a simple thing to understand, exceptionally complicated - and turning upon various complex key variables that appear under dispute. Seems to me, the qualification for pastors and elders alone would indicate whether women were eligible for these positions - but they are silent upon what would seem an obvious qualification to note, if they were to be in such a position. And not ONE key apostle (of the 12 originals, counting Mathias, and also Paul) is a female picked as a model for church leadership in such a capacity? Why in the world would that be? Why have so much to say about men being the headship of the family? Etc? I'm simply asking these as questions AND out of concern that people so often want to read our modern cultural sensibilities into Scripture - which is a huge mistake that has driven a lot of problematic doctrinal views.

Re: Women in church

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:45 am
by Kurieuo
1over137 wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:04 am
Thank you for another source. Can you please fix the link so that I can read that source? ;)
It should open a PDF when you click it?
http://christianthinktank.com/female_all.pdf

There's lots of content there to draw upon.

I'll say nothing further, except to say, that "churches" as we often think of them are more or less man made (as in human constructions, but yet also actually normally MAN made).

Yet, there is only one Church that matters here on earth, and in such as I see God uses whom He uses. Women can and have appropriately led, and I don't see a problem with that.

Re: Women in church

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:57 am
by Philip
K: Women can and have appropriately led, and I don't see a problem with that.
But led in what capacity, exactly? And the very point of listing the requirements / qualifications for pastors and elders are what - pointless? In error? That makes no sense! The point of the listing is to eliminate inappropriate choices / encouraging the correct ones. So why the omission that would qualify women for these roles?

Re: Women in church

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:01 pm
by 1over137
K,

When I click the link it opens nothing and error message is:

This page can’t be displayed

•Make sure the web address http://christianthinktank.com is correct.
•Look for the page with your search engine.
•Refresh the page in a few minutes.

Re: Women in church

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:37 pm
by Philip
The PDF opens when I click the link. But try here instead: http://christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

Re: Women in church

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:52 pm
by thatkidakayoungguy
Sometimes women can be leaders-think of the Judge Deborah for instance. Also when the man falls ill or something. Sometimes a guy knowing feminine things like cooking and sewing is not wrong, same with a woman knowing masculine stuff like machinery or computer technology.

Re: Women in church

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:22 am
by Kurieuo
Philip wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:57 am
K: Women can and have appropriately led, and I don't see a problem with that.
But led in what capacity, exactly? And the very point of listing the requirements / qualifications for pastors and elders are what - pointless? In error? That makes no sense! The point of the listing is to eliminate inappropriate choices / encouraging the correct ones. So why the omission that would qualify women for these roles?
:scratch: I'm not sure what you've read/are referring to. Perhaps if you draw a particular points out?

Re: Women in church

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:27 am
by Kurieuo
1over137 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:01 pm
K,

When I click the link it opens nothing and error message is:

This page can’t be displayed

•Make sure the web address http://christianthinktank.com is correct.
•Look for the page with your search engine.
•Refresh the page in a few minutes.
Has your country blocked the site? Maybe try a proxy via US, just to see. Otherwise, I've uploaded elsewhere, try here. It is more a mish-mash of pages of his articles on the topic put together in a PDF.

Re: Women in church

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:38 am
by Philip
Philip: But led in what capacity, exactly? And the very point of listing the requirements / qualifications for pastors and elders are what - pointless? In error? That makes no sense! The point of the listing is to eliminate inappropriate choices / encouraging the correct ones. So why the omission that would qualify women for these roles?


K: scratch: I'm not sure what you've read/are referring to. Perhaps if you draw a particular points out?
Without going into the technical arguments or musings in the links, just cut to the chase and answer why the qualifications listed for elders and pastors eliminate or leave out women - as that had to be done on purpose. Because I never saw that addressed in the links - or maybe I missed it, as the links are quite lengthy.

Re: Women in church

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:05 am
by Nicki
Kurieuo wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:45 am
1over137 wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:04 am
Thank you for another source. Can you please fix the link so that I can read that source? ;)
It should open a PDF when you click it?
http://christianthinktank.com/female_all.pdf

There's lots of content there to draw upon.

I'll say nothing further, except to say, that "churches" as we often think of them are more or less man made (as in human constructions, but yet also actually normally MAN made).

Yet, there is only one Church that matters here on earth, and in such as I see God uses whom He uses. Women can and have appropriately led, and I don't see a problem with that.
That's really long :D but I got through some of it - interesting ideas about Paul's teachings. I was taken aback at most people's view here. All the (evangelical) churches I've been part of have had female pastors at some level, or at least had women speaking to everyone sometimes. When pastoring is seen as a function and as serving the church, it doesn't make much sense to exclude all women.

Re: Women in church

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:58 am
by Philip
Nicki: When pastoring is seen as a function and as serving the church, it doesn't make much sense to exclude all women.
Nick, it's important to realize that most evangelical churches that don't allow women to serve as elders or pastors aren't doing it because of some sexist/elitist/antiquated societal views, as they base it upon the qualifications and instructions given for these positions listed in the New Testament, and are in place in individual churches wishing to honor those. So the right or wrong of it should have nothing whatsoever to do with societal or personal preferences. Should Jesus not have chosen a female disciple as one of the originals? And surely, upon replacing Judas, they would have considered a woman, correct? But that's not what Scripture reveals. Why did God almost overwhelmingly choose the Patriarchs to deal with? Why is the man supposed to lead his family? I would submit that it has not one thing to do with abilities/capabilities or intelligence, nor that God places more value upon men than women. So, it's none of that. So, the rightness or wrongness of doctrinal beliefs shouldn't be judged upon our modern sensibilities.