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Lord's Prayer: Pope May Change Verse's Wording?

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 am
by Philip
The Pope thinks this line ( Matthew 6:13: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.") should be changed to a better translation.

The issue: https://www.foxnews.com/world/pope-fran ... ur-father

An explanation of why the present translation (ESV, etc.) is accurate and what it means: https://carm.org/lead-us-not-into-temptation

Re: Lord's Prayer: Pope May Change Verse's Wording?

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:47 am
by LittleHamster
Philip wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 am

The issue: https://www.foxnews.com/world/pope-fran ... ur-father

It seems that the Pope wants to change “lead us not into temptation” to “do not let us fall into temptation” - I think the former implies that we are asking for a lead by the Holy Spirit and then we make our own decision on which way we should go whereas the later is implying that the Holy Spirit should somehow override our decision (free will) to do certain things in order to to keep us from transgressing.


On another (unrelated) translation issue, I recall somewhere that (according to the nicene creed) Jesus descended into Hell and then rose again whereas in the Ancient Greek literal translation, it does not mention this. (read more here: https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/did- ... into-hell/)

Re: Lord's Prayer: Pope May Change Verse's Wording?

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:29 pm
by 1over137
https://theholyaramaicscriptures.weebly.com/mat-6.html

ܗܟܢܐ ܗܟܝܠ ܨܠܘ ܐܢܬܘܢ ܐܒܘܢ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ ܢܬܩܕܫ ܫܡܟ
9 Therefore, you are to pray like this: ‘Abun {Our Father}, who is in the Shmaya {the Heavens}, may Shmak {Your Name} be hallowed,

ܬܐܬܐ ܡܠܟܘܬܟ ܢܗܘܐ ܨܒܝܢܟ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ ܐܦ ܒܐܪܥܐ
10 may Malkuthak {Your Kingdom} come, may Tsebyanak {Your Will}, as it is in the Shmaya {the Heavens}, even so be in the Ara {the Earth}.

ܗܒܠܢ ܠܚܡܐ ܕܣܘܢܩܢܢ ܝܘܡܢܐ
11 Give unto us the lakhma {the bread} of our need, today,

ܘܫܒܘܩ ܠܢ ܚܘܒܝܢ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܐܦ ܚܢܢ ܫܒܩܢ ܠܚܝܒܝܢ
12 and forgive us khawbyin {our debts} as we also have forgiven khayabyin {our debtors}.

ܘܠܐ ܬܥܠܢ ܠܢܣܝܘܢܐ ܐܠܐ ܦܨܢ ܡܢ ܒܝܫܐ ܡܛܠ ܕܕܝܠܟ ܗܝ ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܘܚܝܠܐ ܘܬܫܒܘܚܬܐ ܠܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ
13 And don’t let us enter into nesyuna {testing}, but rather, deliver us from biysha {evil}, because Yours is The Malkutha {The Kingdom}, and The Khayla {The Power}, and The Theshbukhtha {The Glory}, unto alam almiyn {everlasting eternities}.’

Re: Lord's Prayer: Pope May Change Verse's Wording?

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:14 pm
by 1over137
http://readicon.com/lords-prayer-luke-11/
link with thorough explanation of greek translation and pics of papyruses

καὶ (kai)

and
Conjunction. and, even, also

μὴ (mē)

not
Particle. not

εἰσενέγκῃς (eisenenkēs)

lead
Verb. lead in, carry in, bring in, deliver

Re: Lord's Prayer: Pope May Change Verse's Wording?

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:35 pm
by LittleHamster
"leads us" versus "do not let us"...

We can fall back on our intuition and ask ourselves, as a parent "Would I prefer to lead my children away from temptation or would I prefer to not let them fall into temptation ?"

I'm a little partial to 'leading away from' rather than 'not letting' or 'not allowing' but there might be dangerous instances were 'not letting' would be justified y:-?

prayer should be....
"lead us not into temptation and in specific cases that warrant it, do not let us fall into temptation"