Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

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PaulSacramento
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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#16

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:48 am

Besides, how could angels die like humans? They are spiritual beings. They cannot die a physical death.
And here we have the issue it seems.
Where in the bible does it say that Divine beings, other than God, CAN'T die ??
Let us not forget that the Son of God died a physical death, while I am NOT equating the incarnation with the physical bodies that divine beings CAN have and DO have in the bible, I am saying that NOWHERE in the bible does it say a divine being can't die ( physical or otherwise).

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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#17

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:09 am

PaulS wrote:
Yes, context is the key and you are grasping at straws in regards to Pslam 82 referring to humans.
The context of the WHOLE chapter implies divine beings.
The WHOLE chapter is only 8 verses, which when read in proper context, refer to human judges, not divine beings/angels.
When did God allot all the nations to the sons of Israel?
Not sure when. The text is referring to the future nation of Israel, right?

I don't see the significance of Israel not existing yet.
What about:
Deut. 29:23 All nations will ask, “Why did the Lord do thus to this land? Wherefore that awful wrath?” 24 They will be told, “Because they forsook the covenant that the Lord, God of their fathers, made with them when He freed them from the land of Egypt; 25 they turned to the service of other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they had not experienced and whom He had not allotted to them.”
I think it refers to the false gods that Israel worshiped, in place of God Himself.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#18

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:12 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:48 am
Besides, how could angels die like humans? They are spiritual beings. They cannot die a physical death.
And here we have the issue it seems.
Where in the bible does it say that Divine beings, other than God, CAN'T die ??
Let us not forget that the Son of God died a physical death, while I am NOT equating the incarnation with the physical bodies that divine beings CAN have and DO have in the bible, I am saying that NOWHERE in the bible does it say a divine being can't die ( physical or otherwise).
Paul,

The issue is about angels dying like men. Men die physically. Angels don't. Angels are not physical beings, therefore they cannot die a physical death like men do. I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#19

Post by Philip » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:47 am

:duel:

Again, how does having an accurate take on this mystery change anything for us today? Because for whatever reasons or past events and realities (or ongoing ones) we might not fully understand, how does the correct understanding impact us. We know there is a host of evil, hidden, spiritual, and also mortal, that threatens us. As we got no specifics, situationally.

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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#20

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:56 am

RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:12 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:48 am
Besides, how could angels die like humans? They are spiritual beings. They cannot die a physical death.
And here we have the issue it seems.
Where in the bible does it say that Divine beings, other than God, CAN'T die ??
Let us not forget that the Son of God died a physical death, while I am NOT equating the incarnation with the physical bodies that divine beings CAN have and DO have in the bible, I am saying that NOWHERE in the bible does it say a divine being can't die ( physical or otherwise).
Paul,

The issue is about angels dying like men. Men die physically. Angels don't. Angels are not physical beings, therefore they cannot die a physical death like men do. I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that.
Where does the bible say that?

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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#21

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:24 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:56 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:12 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:48 am
Besides, how could angels die like humans? They are spiritual beings. They cannot die a physical death.
And here we have the issue it seems.
Where in the bible does it say that Divine beings, other than God, CAN'T die ??
Let us not forget that the Son of God died a physical death, while I am NOT equating the incarnation with the physical bodies that divine beings CAN have and DO have in the bible, I am saying that NOWHERE in the bible does it say a divine being can't die ( physical or otherwise).
Paul,

The issue is about angels dying like men. Men die physically. Angels don't. Angels are not physical beings, therefore they cannot die a physical death like men do. I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that.
Where does the bible say that?
Where does the Bible say that angels are spiritual beings?

Hebrews 1:14.

Are you really disagreeing with me that angels are spiritual beings?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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RickD
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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#22

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:32 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:47 am
:duel:

Again, how does having an accurate take on this mystery change anything for us today? Because for whatever reasons or past events and realities (or ongoing ones) we might not fully understand, how does the correct understanding impact us. We know there is a host of evil, hidden, spiritual, and also mortal, that threatens us. As we got no specifics, situationally.
Other than accurate interpretation of the text, it doesn't matter much to me.

But I think I remember reading that some believe that Nephilim(angel/human hybrids) have some end time significance.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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thatkidakayoungguy
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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#23

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:54 pm

Angels generally do not have a physical or fleshy cloak unlike humans.

PaulSacramento
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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#24

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:56 am

RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:24 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:56 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:12 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:48 am
Besides, how could angels die like humans? They are spiritual beings. They cannot die a physical death.
And here we have the issue it seems.
Where in the bible does it say that Divine beings, other than God, CAN'T die ??
Let us not forget that the Son of God died a physical death, while I am NOT equating the incarnation with the physical bodies that divine beings CAN have and DO have in the bible, I am saying that NOWHERE in the bible does it say a divine being can't die ( physical or otherwise).
Paul,

The issue is about angels dying like men. Men die physically. Angels don't. Angels are not physical beings, therefore they cannot die a physical death like men do. I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that.
Where does the bible say that?
Where does the Bible say that angels are spiritual beings?

Hebrews 1:14.

Are you really disagreeing with me that angels are spiritual beings?
Where does the bible say that angels can't die?
Or even that spiritual beings, besides God who is Eternal, can't die?

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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#25

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:00 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:56 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:24 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:56 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:12 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:48 am
Besides, how could angels die like humans? They are spiritual beings. They cannot die a physical death.
And here we have the issue it seems.
Where in the bible does it say that Divine beings, other than God, CAN'T die ??
Let us not forget that the Son of God died a physical death, while I am NOT equating the incarnation with the physical bodies that divine beings CAN have and DO have in the bible, I am saying that NOWHERE in the bible does it say a divine being can't die ( physical or otherwise).
Paul,

The issue is about angels dying like men. Men die physically. Angels don't. Angels are not physical beings, therefore they cannot die a physical death like men do. I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that.
Where does the bible say that?
Where does the Bible say that angels are spiritual beings?

Hebrews 1:14.

Are you really disagreeing with me that angels are spiritual beings?
Where does the bible say that angels can't die?
Or even that spiritual beings, besides God who is Eternal, can't die?
Never mind. If you're not going to pay attention to what I've actually said, I really don't feel like repeating myself again.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#26

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:28 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:54 pm
Angels generally do not have a physical or fleshy cloak unlike humans.
Correct, they are spiritual beings in heaven BUT we know that they assume human form on Earth and we can't even tell the difference between them and actual humans.
There is no passage in the bible that states that Spiritual beings can NOT be killed NOR that, when in physical bodies, can't be killed either.

Now, we know that, at the end of times, the rebellious angels will be destroyed in the lake of fire.
Now some will say that the devil and angels are being tortured for all eternity and that may be the case BUT 2 Thessalonians mentions:
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Who are "these" ? those that do not obey the Gospel, which would include angels of course.

I understand that there is a bit of a gray area here, do angels simply suffer eternal punishment and not die? maybe BUT that doesn't have anything to do with them being immortal because even mortals will be in the lake of fire either tormented for all eternity or destroyed ( however you interpret this).

My view is that the bible does NOT say that Angels can't die and most definitely doesn't say that can't have a physical death when they assume human form.

As for Luke 20:
34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons[g] of the resurrection.

We have to understand the difference between not dying with not being killed/destroyed as showed above.

Not saying that the subject isn't tricky, just simply that God can most certainly end the existence of ANYTHING that he created if it is the right thing to do.

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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#27

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:30 am

In the end, this is about one simple thing:

Does one believe that there were other divine beings that were (falsely) worshiped as gods and if so, who/what were they?

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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#28

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:36 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:30 am
In the end, this is about one simple thing:

Does one believe that there were other divine beings that were (falsely) worshiped as gods and if so, who/what were they?
I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with the idea that there were many things falsely worshiped, including angels/divine beings.

And I personally don't know of any Christians that deny there's a spiritual battle going on.

I think the disagreement comes with some of the beliefs set forth in the video.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Christian doubts about the supernatural realm

#29

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:33 pm

Rick: I think the disagreement comes with some of the beliefs set forth in the video.
Which is why I posted it. It's a fascinating subject, helps us to examine Scriptures more closely. But worth fighting over - absolutely not - can't see that it matters to us.

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