What Do You Do When You Start To Lose Faith?

Discussions amongst Christians about life issues, walking with Christ, and general Christian topics that don't fit under any other area.
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Kurieuo
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#76

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:34 pm

Kendrick wrote:Atheists are fools? Take that log out of your eye.
I see you like to make use of your own Scripture, but it is just a shame you misapply it here.

Romans 1:18-22—
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.

There are also verses in Psalm which say the fool says in his heart there is no God. (Psalm 14:1; Psalm 53:1) Perhaps August should simply change his signature to one of these? ;)

Kurieuo.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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#77

Post by Kendrick » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:25 am

Felgar,

Apparently Jesus, who was perfect, understood and told us that a) the Bible was the inspired Word of God, and b) we are to live on every word written in it. Tell me, would Jesus really have commanded us to live on every word from the mouth of God if he knew it to be falsified?


The spiritual walk is living 'by every word of God' that is by conscience and spirit, and not living The Word of God which some refer to as The Bible. Jesus already said you cannot live the Law, how much less The Word of God. You can however live by what is given you and much more will be added.

Kurieuo,

Romans 1:18-22—
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness


I do not see all atheists being wicked, some live better lives than Christians. Why do they not come before God? Because the God they see we serve, keeps people in ignorance and self satisfaction. A God we wanted and shaped to our own image. They are more honest for they had not been brought the Gospel but a new religion like the Jews had.

You'll also note that most often Jesus would preface his statements with "I tell you the truth." But here it's "It is written." See, they're one in the same; "It is written" means that "it is truth."

Then you'll also note he added 'but I tell you, whoever.....' and extended the limited meaning. That the Spirit brings forth light from written words. You and I and everyone have been told this is the Spirit we should live by. Live by inspiration of the Present, not interpretation of the age.

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#78

Post by Deborah » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:16 am

Kendrick wrote: I do not see all atheists being wicked, some live better lives than Christians. Why do they not come before God? Because the God they see we serve, keeps people in ignorance and self satisfaction. A God we wanted and shaped to our own image. They are more honest for they had not been brought the Gospel but a new religion like the Jews had.
Not everyone you call a christian is a christian, if we do not live in a way that pleases God then we are not Christians. Too many use Christian as a dirty word! if you see your fellow man on the streets going hungry or cold and pass him by then according to God you are not Christian!
A Christian is one who walks in the steps of jesus, God himself set himself up to be our example. If we fall off, then we get up and when we say we are sorry we mean it!
There is no such thing as a true christian! You are either a Christian living the way god wanted us to live or you are not a christian. There is no in between.
Christian is not some dirty word you wipe off your shoe! It has a true and good meaning. The name Christian is reserved for those who CHOOSE to abide by the word of god and live their lives the way god intended them to be lived. When someone chooses to live as a Christian, they put what god wants before what they want, and in return God provides their NEEDS.
Hence all parties are happy.
Church tradition tells us that when John, son of Zebadee and brother of James was an old man, his disciples would carry him to church in their arms.
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”

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#79

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:43 am

Kendrick wrote:Romans 1:18-22—
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness


I do not see all atheists being wicked, some live better lives than Christians.
I'd consider failing to rightly acknowledge God, as one of the most wicked acts someone could commit. Infact wicked would loose all meaning in a world where God doesn't exist.

As for living better lives, well their own consciences will then bear witness against them on the day of judgement if they acknowledge what w all know to be right: 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) (Romans 2:14-15)
Kendrick wrote:Why do they not come before God? Because the God they see we serve, keeps people in ignorance and self satisfaction. A God we wanted and shaped to our own image. They are more honest for they had not been brought the Gospel but a new religion like the Jews had.
It's strange how your so quick to jump into the camp of those against God, and so quick to label and judge those here whom you know bearly nothing about. Perhaps you have a log of your own...? ;) In any case, I'd recommend either dialoguing in a more civil fashion rather than treating us all like your enemy, or otherwise find another board.

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#80

Post by Kendrick » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:27 am

Brian,

Kendrick, after re-reading some of your posts, are you saying that a true follower of Christ MUST be perfect like him?

Jesus said you must. So how can this happen? The first perfection is having eyes that can see. Just to repent of your ways accept what Jesus has done for you and invite God in. This is the first perfection. Then starts the journey of refinement, to make mistakes and fall down and get up again, to live by every word of God.

I understand you are of no religion but do believe the Trinity exists?

Was Jesus of religion? Did he observe all the practices? Did he come as a Super Jew or to teach you The Way? Were not his followers called Followers of The Way? The Way also written in the Torah. It has not changed since time began: to love God with your heart mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

Does the trinity exist?
You have been giving the Spirit, so you can see the Son and so you see the Father. They are one and not separate.

You are saying that religions make no sense to the believer, but then how do we KNOW the trinity without a book telling us that it exists it you exclude scientific evidence from it?

I would have not known about Jesus unless someone told me or wrote about him. Without the Spirit I could not have understood Him and I would not have known the Father he served. A book could only lead me to ritual, the shepherds, those people who follow the path, would guide me to the Living Water in it.

I am not understanding where you are coming from.


I hope you will, for it will be the same place you are coming from and understand I come in love and truth.

Again, I am SORRY for what I posted about you earlier, but saying you were there when the books were written makes no sense to me at all. Surely you haven't existed thousands of years but you learn from the books of religion.

Of course I did not physically live when the extension to Mark's Gospel was added, but in my heart I was with the writer when he wrote it.
First from the Bible I read good words and sayings, then I began to understand them then I began to understand the writer's and their intent behind the words.

Kendrick, so I am a believer of the Trinity and I try to be Christ like in certain ways but can't in others,

The kingdom within you is not of partial faith or half life. You know what is revealed to you and act upon it. If you let yourself down you know it, and forgive yourself and seek to be free. You can only be the person Jesus gave his life for, that you will grow by the Light he had. That was his sacrifice. Trying to emulate Jesus by what he did wont work. You have to meet every moment in the present, in the Presence.

we are not perfect, how then if we are not perfect since we are born into the earth with sin, can we be EXACTLY like Christ?

We may be born into sin, but this can removed from you when you choose not to be a part of it. It may be revealed by the spirit or initially by someone else. This is how Jesus made you realise about yourself. That your love is of the world.

Yes, you are right when you say that a new creation is made, but still it has its flaws.

God's Way has no flaws. Who said His Creation is imperfect? Bringing you back to yourself is perfection. The World (the Devil) tried to take this away from you and give you something to replace your soul.

What were you like before you became a new creation?
Innocent and then corrupted by doubt and resentment. In my youth I was naive and the corrupted adults abused my beauty rather than nurture me. My innocent presence was a condemnation without meaning to hurt.

I am being re-baptized to re-commit me life to Christ after some stupid stuff I have done in my life. Is this worth it? What are your thoughts?

Being Born again is to know right from wrong. You are given a heightened consciousness, and though you may go back to your old life you are now known to not be the same person, people intuitively know it, it is now a charade and you do not belong with them. No matter how far you run, even if it is inside a belly of a whale, you know what you have to do.

So I do not believe you can re-commit by an outward show of declaration. You have been saved. God has seen to that. You re-commit by an inward show of faith, as many times as it takes. A Church that re-baptises you usually has in the small print that this is the route to membership of their church. In my opinion this is dangerous, and you will be chained by them to conform to their ways and beliefs.

Go out into the sea, alone before God, and baptise yourself and come back saying you were re-baptised. For each day is a baptism for many more things.

Kurieou,

There are many people who sincerely do not know God and reject the god of religion. They may call themselves Atheists as a rejection of religeous practice and dogma, but they still need feeding and not rejecting or putting a wall around your faith to keep them out. Try entering a Church with Christians with a hat on that declares "Atheists are Morons" and you'll see the response. Christianity is not a club. We are all invited, though not deserving on our own merits.

As Jesus was told by his Church of the time "who are you to judge us".

So sharpen your swords to heal and whit. Least we be asleep when the day comes.

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#81

Post by Felgar » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:54 am

Kendrick wrote:The spiritual walk is living 'by every word of God' that is by conscience and spirit, and not living The Word of God which some refer to as The Bible. Jesus already said you cannot live the Law, how much less The Word of God. You can however live by what is given you and much more will be added.
You ignored the point. Jesus knew the OT inside and out - so for one it was worth his limited time on Earth to study and teach it. Then he used it to refute the devil - clearly he understood that it is truth. He could have refuted the devil on his own authority but he didn't - why do you think that is? He didn't say "it is the father's will that I don't live by bread alone." Rather he said, "It is written, man shall not live by bread alone." This scenario alone is enough for me to make the assertion that in order to claim to believe in Jesus, you must also accept the validity and authority of God's Word.

It's great to 'live by the Spirit' because that is truly the development of our relationship with Him and that is ultimately our purpose in life, but I maintain that without the external source of truth it's almost impossible to stay on track. I should point out that other Christians could also act as that source of validity, so if you fellowship with other believers then that will help. In this case though, I believe that Kurieuo, August, Deborah, JF, and I are here to fullfill that role. And again, I point to the fact that you are attempting to deny the Word of God as a sure sign that you're off track. And this is to say nothing of the scriptures provided by Deborah that nail this issue shut.

There are other ideological errors in your philosophies as well. Baptism, though not necessary for salvation is certainly a good idea... It's about accountability to other people which will also help you stay on track. One of the main things baptism is about is a public statement one makes, that Jesus is my Lord. So I'd encourage JF to do that if he feels called to. This is a great example of where it pays to live by the Spirit... For JF to Spend some time in prayer and determine how God is calling him right now.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

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#82

Post by Kendrick » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:23 pm

Felgar,

Your points are well made. Jesus, I assume weakened after fasting forty days, (Mt. 4:1-11) had the Torah scripture to refute the Devil. Jesus believed and understood the truth in those words. As you say, Jesus could have rebuked the Devil on his own authority. He could have said 'get thee behind me Satan' but didn't.

This scenario alone is enough for me to make the assertion that in order to claim to believe in Jesus, you must also accept the validity and authority of God's Word.

It's great to 'live by the Spirit' because that is truly the development of our relationship with Him and that is ultimately our purpose in life, but I maintain that without the external source of truth it's almost impossible to stay on track.

Once a person is Born Again, they are hungry for food. Seek and you will find. How can you go off track with the Spirit to guide you. Because Jesus lived by the Torah, do we then decry other's who live by the Torah? The Book surely is the Word of God without a sell by date. It does not say, if you have not discovered the Messiah by 2005 this book becomes null and void. What I say is, if you do not have eyes to see, the book is meaningless in your hands anyway and you would not recognize a Jesus if he or she spoke to you, even if you memorized the New testament cover to cover. As Jesus was in the Old testament and could not be seen, Jesus' teachings are in the New testament. Just the bigger picture is followed, and you do not see his joy is your joy, his tears your tears.

I should point out that other Christians could also act as that source of validity, so if you fellowship with other believers then that will help.

Ok the Mormons help the Mormons, the Seventh day the Seventh Day, the Catholics the Catholics, the Jews the Jews, the Muslims the Muslims, all "helping" each other.
I tell you the truth. In your room before God it will be revealed.

In this case though, I believe that Kurieuo, August, Deborah, JF, and I are here to fulfill that role.

You have a noble cause. The truth is you cannot help anybody. You can bring them to scriptures, and being honest reveal as much and as little light is in you, but the seeds you sow will go their own way. You validate as little or as much freedom there is in you. You point The Way.

And again, I point to the fact that you are attempting to deny the Word of God as a sure sign that you're off track. And this is to say nothing of the scriptures provided by Deborah that nail this issue shut.

I do not deny the Word of God. I have shown the Spirit is the Word of God. And where scripture is false I have shown that too.

There are other ideological errors in your philosophies as well.
Baptism, though not necessary for salvation is certainly a good idea...


Baptism is a great Idea to show the world the Spirit has made a home in you, for we no longer baptise for repentance but in symbolism of what Jesus has done for us. I was advising Brian to do it once, like marriage. Honor your first agreement.

It's about accountability to other people which will also help you stay on track.

Fellowship will keep you on track, and you will seek out those who will be honest with you and give good council. But in the dark rooms you may still be guided by another. Allow the Spirit to guide you always.

One of the main things baptism is about is a public statement one makes, that Jesus is my Lord. So I'd encourage JF to do that if he feels called to. This is a great example of where it pays to live by the Spirit... For JF to Spend some time in prayer and determine how God is calling him right now.

Absolutely. It is for Brian to know for himself.


Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


St Paul takes this line of argument because he is compares the Jewish life of obedience to the Law to make people live good lives. He is saying it is by faith people are saved and not by action. And he then declares his faith.

St Paul reached this conclusion by drawing inspiration from Deuteronomy.

Romans 10:5
Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.”6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or 'Who will descend into the deep?'” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart.

This was lifted this straight from Deuteronomy 30:11-14

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

What Scripture is saying is that God is close by you in you heart and mouth.

Confessing in your heart and mouth, any belief, (from a devout Catholic to a devout Hindu), will not save you. Walking with God will.

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#83

Post by Felgar » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:49 pm

Kendrick wrote:I do not deny the Word of God ... where scripture is false I have shown that too.
Ugh. Here we are; back at square one. :( I give up.
Kendrick wrote:Confessing in your heart and mouth, any belief, (from a devout Catholic to a devout Hindu), will not save you. Walking with God will.
GACK!!! I never said that confessing my beliefs would save me. I said that confessing them helps people stay right in their walk with God!!!

If nothing else I think I've made my views clear to everyone else, so that at least they are not led astray.

P.S. Actually confessing in your heart that Jesus is Lord will in fact save you, because that is the definition of Faith. And by Grace through Faith we are saved. You added confessing with your heart when I started talking about confessing with your mouth (aka public acknowledgement of one's beliefs).

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#84

Post by bizzt » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:54 pm

St Paul takes this line of argument because he is compares the Jewish life of obedience to the Law to make people live good lives. He is saying it is by faith people are saved and not by action. And he then declares his faith.

St Paul reached this conclusion by drawing inspiration from Deuteronomy.
You however miss the Point here. It is not just by Faith but by works as well for it is Written

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And then he goes on

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

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#85

Post by Anonymous » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:46 pm

Hey Kendrick, I actually understand where you are coming from. I too believe that just by confessing with your mouth, heart, and mind that Jesus Christ is the Lord savior isn't enough. I believe that a person MUST follow in Gods will as well. Just by saying I accept is just saying that and then a person goes and sins all they want, like I used to do. It is important to live a Godly life if you truely accept Jesus Christ, people misunderstand where you are coming from I guess, but I am getting you :P . I also believe that all religions share one thing in common - a God. So, I say that a specific religion is not right, it is in a way, but we all should rejoice for there is a God watching over us instead of manufacturing text to make a religion. Don't get me wrong, I believe Christianity is the one of the best religions in the U.S.A. and other countries and we need it to guide us, but there is more to life than just is written down. So Kendrick, I do think I know where you are coming from. I believe you have already established a Godly life within yourself. Some people say that God and the Bible should be seperated because you can't fit God in a book, he is greater than that, do you agree? Anyways, the reason I am going to get re-baptized is because I was baptized about 5-6 years ago, I strayed away from God after that because I hadn't known him that well in the first place, but in March 2004 I had a miraculous thing happen to me during a special and cryfull prayer to God, I came back to him and he accepted me. I got to know God better but it wasn't until recently he finally granted me more faith in him and I am able to accept that he truely does exist. My doubts are minimal compared to my major doubts before.

I wan't to ask Kendrick just out of curiosity, have you ever truely witnessed something miraculous in your life, like for example, God audibly speak to you while you were wide awake? Have you witnessed supernatural things? Fill me in buddy. I do agree with most parts of what you have posted because I understand now, but when I made that post saying you were crazy, I only did that because you didn't make sense to me or really anyone else for that matter and thought you were on the forums to make people mad.

By the way, you should introduce yourself in the General Chit-Chat forum under Please Introduce Yourself Here.

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#86

Post by Kendrick » Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:01 pm

Brian,

My heart leaps, for you have shared the Way of the Lord, in Spirit and Truth and you write with God in your heart.

It was remiss of me to not introduce myself, and I apologize. I will do so at once.

I will share what you ask later.

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#87

Post by Kendrick » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:14 pm

Brian,

God's Spirit is certainly in the Bible because God-inspired men wrote the words. It is bringing us to God that the Prophets and Jesus have intended, and people are still doing God's work today.

I wan't to ask Kendrick just out of curiosity, have you ever truly witnessed something miraculous in your life, like for example, God audibly speak to you while you were wide awake? Have you witnessed supernatural things? Fill me in buddy.

No, but I have seen many people believing in signs and wonders because they want to so desperately, to remove themselves from the grey and suffering world they are in. Suffering is good for the soul. Hang in there, theses are healing pains and asking God you will be given an answer.

Religion can be an escape. Churches can be so fixated on doctrine that they loose each other and love. Churches can be so fixated on being good and kind, that they loose sight of truth.

Narrow is The Way.

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#88

Post by seedling » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:31 pm

Hi August,

You say:

"You seem to follow this logic:
Man is fallible, man wrote the Bible, therefore the Bible is fallible.

My contention is:
God is perfect, His revelation is perfect, the Bible is His revelation, therefore the Bible is perfect."


My statement is: Man is fallible, man seeks his Perfect Creator, the bible is the fallible story of man's seeking and yearning for his Perfect Creator containing the history of an intelligent and strong race of people, many beautiful truths and introducing us to a perfect man, Jesus, who demonstrated to us how to be proper human beings and to seek the kingdom first.

"However, was it not for the Bible, you would have no idea that there was a God that sent His son to die for our sins. You would not understand the context of the crucifixion, nor the wonder of God's creation.

You keep on asserting that the Bible is lacking, but then proceed to apply biblical principles to criticize it. Our knowledge of good and evil, of right and wrong, of truth and lies are revealed to us from the Bible, and made intelligible by our God-given spirit. The one does not work without the other in the Christian faith. You would not be able to level this criticism without having the biblical framework by which to do so. If this is untrue, then please provide a description of how you came to realize the difference between truth and deceipt, without taking anything from Scripture. The question then remains as to which part of the Bible is lacking, as every part of the divine revelation has value to someone, somewhere."


August, I believe we stand on the shoulders of those who come before us. You have somewhat said this throughout your post and I agree. We are grateful that we do not have to re-invent the wheel. We know what has been tried and what is true because of those who come before us. The writers of the bible ... We are just like them ... we are their continuation, the human race, a collective ... each one effects the other. We are still writing the story of the Creator ... we are the creation, still growing. We are the body of Christ ... We have to go further in what we see because we have been given much more in this day and age than they had two thousand plus years ago ... Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:10 that a foundation has been laid, and that Jesus is that foundation. Paul calls himself a wise master builder, that he builds upon the foundation of Jesus. And another builds upon it. But let each man take heed how he builds upon it ... But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble, The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is. We are building the kingdom of God in spirit. And what we build will be tested by fire.

"Furthermore, my contention is that the Bible is absolute truth, for to deny that is to deny that we can know about God, and know God."

The bible contains truths. These truths may point us in the direction of who God is. I can know about God by looking at his creation ... the Native Americans knew God before the Europeans came here ... and they never read the bible. And obviously the Europeans didn't know God or Jesus either even though they had the bible.

"The Bible is our only source of specific revelation that can help us comprehend Gods will."

Yes, I believe it is one source ... probably to me the best source. But God created my spirit, heart, and mind first. The bible came much much later.

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#89

Post by Deborah » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:48 pm

Is it so hard to understand.

If god speaks to us and does not tell us lies, then he speaks the truth.
If we are inspired by god and write down the words of god as spoken to us by god, then they are truth and are infact the words of god.
Therefore the men who where INSPIRED by god who wrote the bible are not fallible.When we are inspired by god we are not fallible.
We are inspired by the truth of god as he speaks to our spirit! and since god does not speak lies, but speaks the truth! The the word of God called the bible is not fallible either.
Church tradition tells us that when John, son of Zebadee and brother of James was an old man, his disciples would carry him to church in their arms.
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”

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#90

Post by August » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:39 pm

My statement is: Man is fallible, man seeks his Perfect Creator, the bible is the fallible story of man's seeking and yearning for his Perfect Creator containing the history of an intelligent and strong race of people, many beautiful truths and introducing us to a perfect man, Jesus, who demonstrated to us how to be proper human beings and to seek the kingdom first.
OK, so it like my statement:
"Man is fallible, man wrote the Bible, therefore the Bible is fallible."
Just in more words. You do acknowledge Jesus as perfect.

Please consider:
John 1:1 (NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word here is translated as: logos, log'-os; from Greek 3004 (lego); something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), specially (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ)

So Jesus is put on equal footing here with the Bible, and yet you seem to still contend it is a lie. If One part of something is a lie, then everything in it is a lie. There is no partial truth, especially not in the Bible, since that would invalidate the whole. You cannot exclude certain parts of God-inspired scripture, for it is to deny the truth.
The bible contains truths. These truths may point us in the direction of who God is. I can know about God by looking at his creation ... the Native Americans knew God before the Europeans came here ... and they never read the bible. And obviously the Europeans didn't know God or Jesus either even though they had the bible.
The Bible is the truth, not partially true. It is meant to be read as a whole, since from Adam to Jesus the theme runs through the Bible, and ends with God coming to earth to establish His new kingdom. There can be no untruths in between, for it will invalidate the whole theme and central message. You keep asserting this without being specific and providing evidence to back it up. If you cannot be specific about what and where the untruths are, we will have to accept that this is merely a strawman argument to suit an as yet unnamed agenda.

Sure you can know about God by looking at His creation, that is God's general revelation, and the reason no-one has any excuse to be an atheist.

How do you know that the Europeans did not know God, or Jesus? That is a pretty broad statement, seeing as you just asserted that those without a Bible knows God. The only reason we know about God and Jesus today is because of the Europeans protecting, keeping, translating and printing the Bible, and the only reason you know about Him and use His value system to condemn His Holy Book.
Yes, I believe it is one source ... probably to me the best source. But God created my spirit, heart, and mind first. The bible came much much later.
God is eternal, and the Bible is a verbal rendition of God's mind. So there cannot be any question that the Bible has existed forever, maybe just not verbalized. To say that God created you first is putting you before God Himself.

Seedling, I have to ask, who are you a student of? Who is this person that you heard on the radio that changed your life? Whose teachings do you currently follow?
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com

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