Atheist/Evolutionist

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Stu
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#31

Post by Stu » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:52 pm

Ivellious wrote:Some Christians say it is a fact that homosexuality caused AIDS. Some scientists say that abiogenesis is a fact.

The way I see it, neither view is widely held. I just checked my college biology textbook (co-written by one of the professors at my university and one of the most widely used in the country). It says that there is no scientific consensus for the origins of life, and leaves it at that. Obviously it still holds the Theory of Evolution as the foundation of biology, but any reputable biology textbook does.
What does that even mean? In what way is Evolutionary Theory "the foundation of biology". That is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.

Remove evolution from the equation and biology operates just fine.

The history of biology and medicine owes nothing to Darwin.
Anatomy
Physiology
Botony
Zoology
Comparative anatomy
Embryology
Genetics

All of the above owe nothing to evolution at all. Evolution is a veneer, an unnecessary afterthought after all the hard work has been done. Cast it aside and the world of science will function as if it never existed in the first place.
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#32

Post by Bovey » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:57 pm

RickD wrote:
Bovey wrote:Wait a second, are you suggesting that God did something that isn't mentioned in the Bible? Are you putting words in God's mouth? God said he created the Heavens and the earth in six literal days and rested on the seventh, how can you explain that God created the world through the big bang or evolution? Where in scripture does it say that? I'm almost kind of astonished at how people can take scientific fallacies and put them in the Bible. y:O2

Revelation 22:18-19 - " (18)I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, god will add to him the plagues described in this book, (19)and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

How can you take those words of the Bible and deliberately add to the book of the prophecy? Does God not make Himself clear???
Ken Ham Jr., I mean Bovey, I agree that the bible says God created the heavens and the earth, in six "literal'' days. Six, literal, long days. Yom can literally mean something other than a 24 hour day. You really need to search the homesite here, to see that Old Earth Creationists, take the bible literally. Young Earth Creationism(YEC) at Answers in Genesis, is just one literal interpretation of the creation stories in scripture.
"There is a theory that says each of God's days in Genesis were actually millions of years for us. Is this true? Maybe we need to ask what does the word "day" mean in Genesis?

The Hebrew word "yom" is translated as day in Genesis. Just as our word "day" can have different meanings based on its context, so can the word "yom". For example, in the Old Testament "yom" is translated to mean a 24 hour day 1109 times. It means a long, long period of time--such as an age--about nine times.

However, every time the word "yom" is used with the term evening or morning in the Bible, it means a regular 24 hour day.

Every time the word "yom" is used with a number, such as "40 yom" (40 days), it means a regular 24 hour day.

What we now see is that in Genesis chapter one God is going out of His way to emphasize that each day is a normal 24 hour day."

Got that from missiontoamerica.org
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#33

Post by Stu » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:01 pm

Bovey, from my side I would really recommend a book by Michael Behe called The Edge of Evolution to get your head around some of the major problems that face the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis.

The more we learn the more the theory collapses.
Last edited by Stu on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#34

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:03 pm

Bovey wrote:
RickD wrote:
Bovey wrote:Wait a second, are you suggesting that God did something that isn't mentioned in the Bible? Are you putting words in God's mouth? God said he created the Heavens and the earth in six literal days and rested on the seventh, how can you explain that God created the world through the big bang or evolution? Where in scripture does it say that? I'm almost kind of astonished at how people can take scientific fallacies and put them in the Bible. y:O2

Revelation 22:18-19 - " (18)I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, god will add to him the plagues described in this book, (19)and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

How can you take those words of the Bible and deliberately add to the book of the prophecy? Does God not make Himself clear???
Ken Ham Jr., I mean Bovey, I agree that the bible says God created the heavens and the earth, in six "literal'' days. Six, literal, long days. Yom can literally mean something other than a 24 hour day. You really need to search the homesite here, to see that Old Earth Creationists, take the bible literally. Young Earth Creationism(YEC) at Answers in Genesis, is just one literal interpretation of the creation stories in scripture.
There is a theory that says each of God's days in Genesis were actually millions of years for us. Is this true? Maybe we need to ask what does the word "day" mean in Genesis?

The Hebrew word "yom" is translated as day in Genesis. Just as our word "day" can have different meanings based on its context, so can the word "yom". For example, in the Old Testament "yom" is translated to mean a 24 hour day 1109 times. It means a long, long period of time--such as an age--about nine times.

However, every time the word "yom" is used with the term evening or morning in the Bible, it means a regular 24 hour day.

Every time the word "yom" is used with a number, such as "40 yom" (40 days), it means a regular 24 hour day.

What we now see is that in Genesis chapter one God is going out of His way to emphasize that each day is a normal 24 hour day.

Got that from missiontoamerica.org
Bovey, did you research this yourself? Or are you just spouting off stuff you read on the internet? Do you know for a fact that "Every time the word "yom" is used with a number, such as "40 yom" (40 days), it means a regular 24 hour day."?
The reason I ask, is because this is an argument that AIG uses. I used to be a YEC, Bovey. It wasn't until I heard a Jewish Rabbi on the radio, say that Yom can literally mean a long period of time, did I start to research OEC/YEC for myself.
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#35

Post by Bovey » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:13 pm

Yom "can" literally mean a long period of time, but doesn't always. I have attended countless Bible studies on this subject and don't find yom as a long period of time in the Genesis account. I have gone through and studied a book that tranlates the words of the hebrew Bible to the English Bible, (of coarse not the entire thing), the guy who wrote this book spent almost his entire life on this research, and he takes yom from context and translates the word from the creationist account to a "literal" 24 hour period, not an age as mentioned above.
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#36

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:18 pm

Bovey wrote:Yom "can" literally mean a long period of time, but doesn't always. I have attended countless Bible studies on this subject and don't find yom as a long period of time in the Genesis account. I have gone through and studied a book that tranlates the words of the hebrew Bible to the English Bible, (of coarse not the entire thing), the guy who wrote this book spent almost his entire life on this research, and he takes yom from context and translates the word from the creationist account to a "literal" 24 hour period, not an age as mentioned above.
Bovey, there are differing interpretations on this. That's why there are YECs and OECs. Read this.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#37

Post by Bovey » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:34 pm

However, a verse from the Psalms does not refer to a 24-hour day:

They who dwell in the ends of the earth stand in awe of Your signs; You make the dawn [boqer] and the sunset [ereb] shout for joy. (Psalm 65:8)

Moses, the author of Genesis 1, also wrote Psalm 90.7 In this Psalm, Moses compares 1000 years to a single day or a watch in the night.8 In the next verse, he compares human lives to grass. He says that the grass sprouts in the morning and withers in the evening. Realistically, grasses live at least several days or weeks before dying. Evening and morning in this example do not refer to a 24-hour period of time:

You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning [boqer] they are like grass which sprouts anew. In the morning [boqer] it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening [ereb] it fades and withers away. (Psalm 90:5-6)

Later, in the same Psalm, Moses includes a plea that God satisfy us with His love in the morning (boqer) that we may sing all our days (a lifetime of days, again, is usually longer than 24 hours):

O satisfy us in the morning [boqer] with Your lovingkindness, That we may sing for joy and be glad all our days [yom]. (Psalm 90:14)

Another verse, from Daniel, refers to a period of prophecy:

He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings [ereb] and mornings [boqer]; then the holy place will be properly restored." (Daniel 8:14)

Some interpret the period of 2,300 evenings and mornings as 2,300 days, while other calculate it as 1,150 days (2,300 divided by 2).9 Still others interpret the 2,300 evenings and mornings as 2,300 years.10 It is not absolutely clear that the reference is to 24-hour days.

None of these verses mention yom.

Outside Genesis 1, yom occurs only 4 times in combination with both Hebrew words for "evening" and "morning." The actual word order of "evening" followed by "morning" in combination with yom (as seen in Genesis 1) occurs only once outside Genesis 1. It is ironic that this one verse comes from Daniel 8:26, which defines yom as a period of time at least 3000 years long:

"The vision of the evenings [ereb] and mornings [boqer] Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days [yom] in the future." (Daniel 8:26)

How do you get the "3000 years" out of this statement?
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#38

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:11 pm

Sorry to jump in but doesn't the Hebrew word that is translated as evening and morning should really be translated as order and disorder.


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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#39

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:20 pm

How do you get the "3000 years" out of this statement?
Bovey, I believe in the article, Rich is interpreting the Daniel passages as pertaining to sometime in the future. Is that what you're asking?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#40

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:20 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Sorry to jump in but doesn't the Hebrew word that is translated as evening and morning should really be translated as order and disorder.


Dan
Daniel, I had never heard that before. Where did you hear that?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#41

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:45 pm

RickD wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Sorry to jump in but doesn't the Hebrew word that is translated as evening and morning should really be translated as order and disorder.


Dan
Daniel, I had never heard that before. Where did you hear that?

A friend told me last night, I haven't had time to investigate with my strongs concordance yet, so I am not stating it as fact. : P
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#42

Post by Canuckster1127 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:47 pm

An instance in the Old Testament where Yom is used with an ordinal number (Echad) in exactly the same manner as Genesis 1:5 is Zechariah 14:7. It doesn't refer to a 24 hour day in Zechariah. The appeal made to the formulaic use of yom with ordinals as always 24 hours is false. No serious Hebrew Scholar accepts the alimed "rule." It continues to be repeated however in YEC circles.

Why is that?
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#43

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:42 pm

Why is that?
Just a couple of possible answers: intellectual dishonesty? Fear? Insecurity? A faith built upon something other than Christ? What do you think, Bart?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#44

Post by spartanII » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:50 pm

What I've always wondered is if God wanted it to mean a long period of time wouldn't He have used another word rather than 'yom,' knowing it would confuse people for the future generations to come.
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Re: Atheist/Evolutionist

#45

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:59 pm

spartanII wrote:What I've always wondered is if God wanted it to mean a long period of time wouldn't He have used another word rather than 'yom,' knowing it would confuse people for the future generations to come.
The Bible is divinely inspired word of God, not God's actual hand writing.
Men still wrote the Bible and were constrained by the language of the time.


Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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