Christian Music discussion...

[derrick09]

Hey everyone, I was wanting to ask you all what is your take on today's modern gospel, Christian, and worship music. I don't know if you are like me or not, but if you are somewhat like me, then you overall have a low view of today's "hit" music. Well not only with the horrible lyrics and the awful appearance of a lot of the performers, just the sound of today's music is very watered down and unmoving. In case if you are wondering, when it comes to epic sounding music, I"m a big fan of classic rock from the 60s,70s, and 80s. But anyway back to today's music. Sadly, to me, the same holds true to today's gospel, Christian and worship music. One of the things that I personally find fault with is it sounds not only watered down, (and a lot of you who are males will agree with me) a lot of it sounds way too feminine. Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, but just the vast majority of Christian music today is either performed by females, sounds mostly feminine, and is marketed to primarily a female audience.

Personally when it comes to good Christian music (from any generation) I find myself going towards either the old traditional gospel hymns or the kind of songs that are sung by Methodist or catholic church choirs. I like how those songs are more moving and are more serious sounding, unlike today's teen boppy "Jesus freak" type music. Not to say that it's completely a bad thing, if you like it that's more than good. I don't take issue with anyone who prefers that type of music because at least it somewhat indicates that the person's heart is in the right place. I just don't want to be labeled by people as a lost person or a heretic if I don't always listen to that kind of music. Now if I lived in a perfect world I would have worship music that has the same kind of rhythm and sounds of classic rock from the 60's,70's, and 80's particularly the 80's. But that's just my preference. Let me know what you all think. Take care and GB.

[zoegirl]

I generally agree. I love the hymns! There are very talented artists. I don't have an issue with regards to songs per se, but I don't generally like the poor quality of worship. So much of worship nowadays is simply reminiscent of being at a concert and social calls. That's what is frustrating to me.

There are songs that I like...but since I'm not too big a fan of pop music to begin with, I dislike some of the pop sound of Christian music.

[B. W.]

Being a musician, I want to start a thread like this very one regarding the vary subject mentioned. However, I am battling a stomach illness along with a mild UTI at the moment so I could not. I’ll try to share a bit though and hope to be back in full form again soon.

Last week I was invited by a friend check out one of the local mega churches in the area. As far as I know they have solid doctrine. It was a men’s type bible/prayer/ministry service on Tuesdays we went too. That night was a night of praise.

The music was good; however, something struck me as odd. They were using the most popular praise songs – a mix of soft rock and acoustic rock. Basic 4 chord progressions moving to 3 Chords, then back to four chords. Every song was excellent.

What struck me about it was that it was almost chant like – mantra of repeated phrases. The men there were being blest but I was struck at how this music moved the masses to promote a certain feeling. Its songs chord progressions were all chant like in various tempos and measures.

This troubled me when I went home. I do not think the Lord was in this music and he allowed me to see it. I began to ponder if this style of music has not been market tested and used in a sociological science sort of way to make people feel something and create ambience. In other words, used as a tool to manipulate church growth for those who ascribe to the mega church building program. Some of you understand what I mean by the mega church building program. This is a proven formula used and developed by market analyst.

So, I am beginning to suspect that when this form of praise is used during church services, if there is not some other motivation, most likely unknown to those hearing or the leadership as well, that is not of the Lord. Don’t get me wrong, the music is good but please listen and see if you hear the chant like structure of the music you hear in church using modern progressive praise.

If you do not know what chant like music is the former Beatle’s - John Lennon and George Harrison songs are replete with this style done mostly to Hindu and Eastern Religious chants. The modern praise is in a different style than these but it uses similar chord progressions and mantras in different tempos.

Let me know what you think of this.

As for me, I write my own music along with the music minister at the church I attend. We redo the old hymns in a Blue Grass, County, or yes, even a Rock-a-billy style – and some toe tapping blues. Our goal is to retake the music back for Christ. We use this as we minister out in the fields so to speak and we ain’t typical contemporary praise.

That’s enough for now. I am feeling the effects of a slight low grade fever so please don’t mind my rambling…
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[J.Davis]

Hi derrick09! (this one will be quick but I will keep an eye on this thread and comment when I see something interesting).

This is 100% preference and there is no right or wrong style (though some Christians will fight me on it to the bitter end…lol). But yeah, I see no reason anyone should label you as a lost person or a heretic for liking what you like.

Like B.W, I am a musician. So I play my own music (and often) for God and in many styles. But if I’m going into serious prayer, to the point where I want to focus everything on praying then I will either listen to plain awesome music or one of the awesome anointed female artist. I simply prefer the soft, silky, soothing sound of the female voice over some guy wailing away at me when I am trying to pray …LOL!

In general, ladies will prefer guys in a live performance situation and guys will like the ladies. But good music is good music and either sex will appreciate good music regardless of who is singing it.

Concerning Christian music, ladies have the sense to seek God to help them deal with the pain or void in their heart and guys, well…we just like to handle things ourselves a lot of the time or fight the pain or void until it goes away…but it never will unless we seek God. So that is why the Christian churches (in America) have more ladies and the musicians tailor to their audience, playing the type of music ladies like. When the church has more men then women, I assure you that things will change because the majority of musicians will always tailor to their audience, otherwise… they will find that they have no audience. But there are a lot of churches that have a good balance of men and women and they play a large variety of music that is appealing to both sex.

For me, Christian music needs to have God’s essence on it, it’s just music otherwise (which is great) but God’s music needs to be awesome! A lot of people sing and play those hymns out of habit, and they are about as dead and lifeless as it gets, having no power, completely boring to God and everyone else for that matter. But, as B.W said, one can play them in many styles and with new praise, in order to please God and help the audience get in the right state to praise and worship God. It’s not the hymns really, just the attitudes and mindsets of the people that sing hymns religiously as if they are a commandment from God and all other music is sin.

I am not saying that you guys are like that at all…Just that many churches do that.

But in general, I am a huge fan of many styles of music.

Get better B.W! I will be praying.. I will also give my comments to your post when the sun comes up. I’ll also share some thoughts on your other thread derrick09..

[zoegirl]

Like B.W, I am a musician. So I play my own music (and often) for God and in many styles. But if I’m going into serious prayer, to the point where I want to focus everything on praying then I will either listen to plain awesome music or one of the awesome anointed female artist. I simply prefer the soft, silky, soothing sound of the female voice over some guy wailing away at me when I am trying to pray …LOL!

In general, ladies will prefer guys in a live performance situation and guys will like the ladies. But good music is good music and either sex will appreciate good music regardless of who is singing it.

Concerning Christian music, ladies have the sense to seek God to help them deal with the pain or void in their heart and guys, well…we just like to handle things ourselves a lot of the time or fight the pain or void until it goes away…but it never will unless we seek God. So that is why the Christian churches (in America) have more ladies and the musicians tailor to their audience, playing the type of music ladies like. When the church has more men then women, I assure you that things will change because the majority of musicians will always tailor to their audience, otherwise… they will find that they have no audience. But there are a lot of churches that have a good balance of men and women and they play a large variety of music that is appealing to both sex.

I don't know what you mean by "ladies music" versus men's music.

[derrick09]

Great points B.W. and J. I was wondering if you all have any recordings of either your music or of music done by someone else who uses that same style that you all are referring to, post some links to where I can listen to some of it. I"m dying to finally hear some Christian music with that type of sound to it. Anyways, thank you guys for your time. God bless.

[J.Davis]

I don't know what you mean by "ladies music" versus men's music.

Hello Zoegirl..

Both of these were played live by me…The first is a short example of music that ladies (at least a lot of them…smile) like and was played minutes ago, just for this occasion (just a mix of a few songs). And the second one is a short Classical snip. They are both just quick recordings with a few mistakes and not studio recorded.

I will share more (serious stuff) with you guys (free) in the future.

Music that ladies like

Classical sample for zoegirl

I do not believe that there is exclusive music for ladies and the men. Maybe just music that ladies like but a number of men will stay away from due to the feminine nature of the song. Songs like, I love you lord today, there is none like you etc. Basically, any of the stuff that sounds like a guy is singing to a women. It’s a matter of preference and for a musician we try our best to choose music that makes both God and the audience happy.

[zoegirl]

See, this is what drives me nuts. Where is this stereotype? Both my sister and I absolutely love Classical music. Here I am, with an ipod absolutely loaded with classical music, listening currently to the Bach Christmas Oratorio, then it will be the Messiah...and some classical CHristmas music. (of course I have my share of bluegrass, classic rock, and some Christian, but by far it is classical).


The first sample was was sweet and the second one is more dramatic. Sometimes one would like sweet (a beautiful piece of Vivaldi or Beethoven's 6th symphony) and sometimes dramatic (Beethoven's 7th symphony, second movement....or Dvorak's 9th symphony...awesome!)

I go on to a CHristian dating site and by far, there is no statistical significance to men preferring some sort of male type of music. (other than perhaps men preferring classic rock or hard rock). In fact that's somewhat disappointing, that very few men on there enjoy classical music....not that that's a deal breaker.

I go to churches with traditional hymns and see, on average, more people singing than the newer modern services. I don't see a higher number of men at the traditional services, I perhaps see more men seeing (along with more women singing). But don't you suppose that this is due to the familiarity of the songs and the ease with which most men can sing them? SOmetimes I find the newer songs very bland and yet strangely awkward to sing. Perhaps, like BW suggested, the chant-like qualities of the newer songs are slightly off-putting. (the funniest comment I heard from a student about some of our chapel songs was after singing "I will sing of your love forever"...if you are familiar with the song, the last 2 or 3 minutes are simply singing that refrain...she looked at me and said "I will sing of your love forever....and we did!")

I think overall the depth and meat-ness of Christian thinking has declined over the years, seen in both the music generated and the sermons generated. (even one of the churches here advertises a one-minute little snippet from the sermon and ends with "not a sermon, just a thought"....how sad is that, that the idea of a longer piece of information is somehow distasteful).

What's interesting is the idea that some music is akin to what a man would sing to a woman. But doesn't that strike at the heart of the purpose of singing?...that we are singing to God? As I am listening to Bacg....there is just....a majesty to this music...and sense of "this MUST be powerful and beautiful and stirring BECAUSE of who this is written for and who we are singing to".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6MMW-NJmt8

[J.Davis]

See, this is what drives me nuts. Where is this stereotype?

The stereotype is really the nature of men in disguise (but only if they are not severely damaged and raised under good Christian morals or morals that are similar). I do not believe that either sex has an inherent preference for one type of music over another. But what I do believe is that God created men to care for, support, desire and love women.

It is not the sound of the music but the effect certain types of music has on both males and females. I can play a song for a lady or sing to her and her eyes will water or she may cry from the passion put into the song (same happens with church music). The average Joe does not want to respond in the same way as the women. Why? Because he has an inherent instinct to be stronger then the woman. For example…If a man’s lady is offended by some cowardly, (emotionally and characteristically weak) man (the only type that would cause harm to a lady) then he will have a desire to defend his lady. Something in the man desires to protect his lady when she can not handle a situation.

Same thing if she is being mentally abused in an argument. A man will have a desire to prove to her abuser that he or she is not the intellectual ruler of the world and they will not disrespect his lady in this way. Or if someone close to a mans lady has died and she is crying, the man wants to be in what he sees as a better, stronger, supportive state, letting her cry on him as he holds her, showing strong stable emotion to let her know that she has strength in him and her tears will not always fall. In short, men (in the state God said is acceptable) have a desire to be strong and supportive in all things when it comes to his lady. And he never, ever wants to be in the same state his lady is in when she needs more than she can give.

There is a lot to this and I can go on for many many pages on the nature of men and women alone and how they need to learn each other, but to get to the point…

If a mans lady is crying due to stirring music/an event or tying to hold back tears, the instinct to be in a supportive state is triggered and he feels he should be strong and hard, showing no sign of weakness and allowing her to cry and enjoy the event while he adds to her enjoyment by being there and letting her have a secure, stable place to put her head instead of sobbing or rolling on the floor and leaving his lady without any trace of a real man.

Also, men (and women) have a hard time seeing past their nature so men will believe that others will see that they did not live up to the role their male nature demands. Therefore, it is not acceptable to be unmanly in a situation that the male nature would deem shameful, showing that if a lady was present you would not be in the state the male nature encourages.

A statement was made….

One of the things that I personally find fault with is it sounds not only watered down, (and a lot of you who are males will agree with me) a lot of it sounds way too feminine.

So this is from someone with the male nature, wondering why we have to have all the (what he perceives as) feminine tender emotion evoking music in church. My answer was that the ladies like it (the Holy Ghost seems to as well) and there are a lot of ladies in church. If the church had more guys then ladies (because of the male nature) then they might prefer a lot less of the tear jerking stuff. And if they had to cry in worship then they might prefer to do it alone in an underground bunker reinforced with titanium and sound reflective panels.

Unless of course, you’re me, a master of controlling and evoking emotions, capable of supporting a lady in any situation.

For the rest of you…..men…..you’re just going to have to grin and bear it...

Seriously though, all of this is just a likely reason for the stereotype. I will say that everyone should keep developing the nature God approves of for their sex and that they should properly manage their emotions according to their sex and the situation. If you guys want to be supportive for your lady in church but worshiping God evokes tears and an inability to support her then you can resist but worship God properly in a place that makes you comfortable. If you are single and don’t care how you look in church then have at it. If you are with a lady and you are both ok with crying then pray for God to fix your weak broken manhood….lol…Joking, it’s up to each couple. And if you are not effected by situations that would cause tender emotions for most but you still love God with all your heart then that is fine as well…Whatever you do, just make sure God get’s his time…

[J.Davis]

I go to churches with traditional hymns and see, on average, more people singing than the newer modern services. I don't see a higher number of men at the traditional services, I perhaps see more men seeing (along with more women singing). But don't you suppose that this is due to the familiarity of the songs and the ease with which most men can sing them? SOmetimes I find the newer songs very bland and yet strangely awkward to sing. Perhaps, like BW suggested, the chant-like qualities of the newer songs are slightly off-putting. (the funniest comment I heard from a student about some of our chapel songs was after singing "I will sing of your love forever"...if you are familiar with the song, the last 2 or 3 minutes are simply singing that refrain...she looked at me and said "I will sing of your love forever....and we did!")

I agree with this, but I feel the reason more ladies are in church is because ladies have the sense to seek God to help them deal with the pain or void in their heart and guys typically like to handle things themselves or fight the pain until it goes away. I also feel (I’m pretty sure of it) that the newer chant like songs are setup as they are so that people can learn them quickly and just pour all their effort into worshiping and praising God instead of having to concentrate on learning a new song. You are right about why you see more people singing the hymns, they are already familiar to many. I like and play many styles of music and music is a bit different coming out rather then going in (if that make sense). It really depends on who is performing. An accomplished musician (including vocalist) should be able to make almost anything sound good. But I am with you 100% concerning the fact that some of the modern songs are bland and really void of human character as a lot of it is not played but digitally produced.

I think overall the depth and meat-ness of Christian thinking has declined over the years, seen in both the music generated and the sermons generated. (even one of the churches here advertises a one-minute little snippet from the sermon and ends with "not a sermon, just a thought"....how sad is that, that the idea of a longer piece of information is somehow distasteful).

I agree with this 100%, but we can help change it.

What's interesting is the idea that some music is akin to what a man would sing to a woman. But doesn't that strike at the heart of the purpose of singing?...that we are singing to God? As I am listening to Bacg....there is just....a majesty to this music...and sense of "this MUST be powerful and beautiful and stirring BECAUSE of who this is written for and who we are singing to".

I agree here as well, but as I explained above, men have reasons for resisting certain situations that evoke tender feelings. But you are right, the Holy Ghost does generate feelings that it would like returned.

[zoegirl]

Except for the fact that in the churches with the modern, chantlike songs, even the ones that sound rockish, I still see guys (and women) not singing. I think, personally, that some of the "gender" stuff in churches are a bit of a scape-goat. They play songs that sound like pop-rock, use electric guitars, have drum solos, and somehow this is the reason we're getting men in the church? If songs are the reason that men have left the church, then it's a pretty sorry excuse. Seems to me that if they don't want to sing, then don't sing.

I always thought that the reason they switched to these modern songs is to keep and draw people in.

[J.Davis]

Hello Zoegirl..

Except for the fact that in the churches with the modern, chantlike songs, even the ones that sound rockish, I still see guys (and women) not singing. I think, personally, that some of the "gender" stuff in churches are a bit of a scape-goat. They play songs that sound like pop-rock, use electric guitars, have drum solos, and somehow this is the reason we're getting men in the church? If songs are the reason that men have left the church, then it's a pretty sorry excuse. Seems to me that if they don't want to sing, then don't sing.

I always thought that the reason they switched to these modern songs is to keep and draw people in.

Yes, I see people not singing as well, but the music does not matter. Some people are just not comfortable singing, lifting up their hands, keeling or doing much of anything but sitting really. But that is just the character of the persons.

And you are right, regardless of gender some will put little effort into praising God. But the bible does say that the women is the weaker vessel and it tells the man how to love her. Biblically, my theory is sound and being a man I know it to be true. Also, you have to consider the general attitude men have concerning playing sports with women (such as football, hokey or anything he perceives has to dangerous). I think there is enough evidence to suggest that men on average do feel like they need to protect, support, provide and care for his lady, even if he can not do it at the time I would say that most men always want to and feel that they need to be stronger.

Hey now (smile), I never said that the music kept men out of church, only typical male stubbornness to handle things himself.

But I think we can agree that people are different and at different levels in their walk with Christ (or don’t have one at all) so not everyone will see things as I do concerning reasons to behave a certain way in support of his lady nor will all have what God would say is an acceptable male character.

[zoegirl]

I started a new topic you might be interested in....


I didn't bring up the weaker vessel argument (and don't really understand why you brought it up)...nor why it has anything to do with music.

[zoegirl]

Hey everyone, I was wanting to ask you all what is your take on today's modern gospel, Christian, and worship music. I don't know if you are like me or not, but if you are somewhat like me, then you overall have a low view of today's "hit" music. Well not only with the horrible lyrics and the awful appearance of a lot of the performers, just the sound of today's music is very watered down and unmoving. In case if you are wondering, when it comes to epic sounding music, I"m a big fan of classic rock from the 60s,70s, and 80s. But anyway back to today's music. Sadly, to me, the same holds true to today's gospel, Christian and worship music. One of the things that I personally find fault with is it sounds not only watered down, (and a lot of you who are males will agree with me) a lot of it sounds way too feminine. Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, but just the vast majority of Christian music today is either performed by females, sounds mostly feminine, and is marketed to primarily a female audience.

Personally when it comes to good Christian music (from any generation) I find myself going towards either the old traditional gospel hymns or the kind of songs that are sung by Methodist or catholic church choirs. I like how those songs are more moving and are more serious sounding, unlike today's teen boppy "Jesus freak" type music. Not to say that it's completely a bad thing, if you like it that's more than good. I don't take issue with anyone who prefers that type of music because at least it somewhat indicates that the person's heart is in the right place. I just don't want to be labeled by people as a lost person or a heretic if I don't always listen to that kind of music. Now if I lived in a perfect world I would have worship music that has the same kind of rhythm and sounds of classic rock from the 60's,70's, and 80's particularly the 80's. But that's just my preference. Let me know what you all think. Take care and GB.

What's interesting is that I notice that some of the churches don't know that many traditional hymns are supposed to have a rather fast tempo....and they tend to play them ridiculously slow...r.ather dirgy, which i think contributes to the misconceptions about them. Even some of the more serious or emotional hymns like "O the deep deep love of Jesus" is meant to be played somewhat fast. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07xtPeUVnfs from Selah is a good example...and I've heard it played even faster usually. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwGmOkqf ... re=related (for a faster version, more traditional, ironically, version)

[zoegirl]

Boy, I'm sorry....I missed this earlier

If a mans lady is crying due to stirring music/an event or tying to hold back tears, the instinct to be in a supportive state is triggered and he feels he should be strong and hard, showing no sign of weakness and allowing her to cry and enjoy the event while he adds to her enjoyment by being there and letting her have a secure, stable place to put her head instead of sobbing or rolling on the floor and leaving his lady without any trace of a real man.

No problem there...I would agree....and I woul;dn't expect or need for a guy to turn on the waterworks.

Also, men (and women) have a hard time seeing past their nature so men will believe that others will see that they did not live up to the role their male nature demands. Therefore, it is not acceptable to be unmanly in a situation that the male nature would deem shameful, showing that if a lady was present you would not be in the state the male nature encourages.

It's a bit sad, though, isnt' it....that in most churches it's still unacceptable to be vulnerable? I'm not talking about men or women... just in general. It's unfortunate that when we (collective we) feel the most pain, we feel we must hide it. The few times I have felt liek crying in church I was at great pains to hide it.

One of the best verses in the Bible...."Jesus wept"...

Seriously though, all of this is just a likely reason for the stereotype. I will say that everyone should keep developing the nature God approves of for their sex and that they should properly manage their emotions according to their sex and the situation. If you guys want to be supportive for your lady in church but worshiping God evokes tears and an inability to support her then you can resist

(EDIT)I understand what you mean....I would hope that this would not be the norm, though

I would hope that she isn't so weak that she can't handle herself weeping and him feeling emotional and having an errant tear or two then good grief, how in the world is she handling life?!?!?! Give us a little bit of credit here. We may cry at the drop of a pin but that has no bearing on our strength and this seems rather simplistic to say that he needs to always be without tears. I know my dad rarely cried but the few times he did did no disservice in my eyes....he is a man through and through but good grief, let a man have some tears!!

(EDIT)I think guys in general have an overly dramatic sense of the meaning of women's tears....we can cry at a stupid FOlger's commercial showing the son coming home for Christmas....but that doesn't mean we need you to never tear up in some masculine display at controlling emotions in some mistaken belief that we need a pillar of strength. (please, women, please let's not say this is so!)...they hate seeing us cry, but truly this isn't, for us, indicative of us collapsing, or rather, it's not indicative of us being overall weak. We may want a shoulder to cry on and a sympathetic ear, but we don't need for you to be an emotionless rock.

but worship God properly in a place that makes you comfortable. If you are single and don’t care how you look in church then have at it.

One would hope that truly church would be the one safe place where you could cry and have at it. May we all be so willing as the woman wiping His feet with her tears and perfume....willing to be so open with the responses.

If you are with a lady and you are both ok with crying then pray for God to fix your weak broken manhood….lol…Joking, it’s up to each couple. And if you are not effected by situations that would cause tender emotions for most but you still love God with all your heart then that is fine as well…Whatever you do, just make sure God get’s his time…

hmmm I wonder how much you are truly just joking I agree...God, above all, gets His time.