When were you saved?

Discussions amongst Christians about life issues, walking with Christ, and general Christian topics that don't fit under any other area.
User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: When were you saved?

#46

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:07 am

Tallman,

All you've done here is build a house of cards which circle back to a concept that you're imposing upon the word of God and which the Word of God (Christ) never taught nor which Paul directly taught. Tongues in the Scripture are clearly taught as a sign to the unbeliever and you have twisted it to make it a sign to the believer, and not only that but a sign that you extend to an issue of salvation itself!

Do you imagine that tongues are a clear sign of the work of the Holy Spirit in all cases? Is there no counterfeit? Are tongues not humanly or demonically replicable. Can you tell the difference? If not, then what purpose or sign does tongues serve in terms of an external sign to demonstrate an internal reality.

Let me ask you some plain questions in relation to your beliefs in this and other areas.

1. What is your belief with regard to those who have not evidenced tongues with regard to salvation? Is anyone who doesn't conform to your progression of experience unsaved, condemned and going to hell?

2. What is you belief in terms of water baptism. Is water baptism required for salvation? Does salvation take place at the time of water baptism? If so, then must tongues be evidenced at the time of water baptism as well?

3. Is baptism to be performed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus only.

4. What do you believe with regard to the Trinity? Is Jesus a part of the Godhead, co-equal with the Father and Holy Spirit who are one and yet 3 persons?

5. How do you explain the absence of your teaching in the writings of the Church Fathers? If the inferences you claim were true why would they not be written and taught by the direct disciples of the apostles who sat at the feet of Christ and were present themselves at Pentecost? Does it mean anything to you that there is no clear evidence of your teaching in that early church or that the closest attempts to approximate it after the fact have to be drawn from the Montanists, a heretical sect that separated themselves from the direct teachings and traditions of the apostles?

If you're so inclined you can answer the question as well that prompted this exchange that you have yet to address despite my keeping my side of your proposed bargain to answer your questions before you would provide your scriptural evidence of Paul's speaking in tongues as a sign at the time of his salvation. How about it?

bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: When were you saved?

#47

Post by Gman » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:59 pm

Tallman,

I've been down this road before and I can assure you that tongues are not some kind of supernatural language.. I started my Christian journey in a charismatic church, so I know what I'm talking about.. This link explains it very well..

http://www.speaking-in-tongues.net/

Also, if you want to know if someone is saved, this I believe gives the best answer.. Not tongues..
How can I tell if someone is saved or not?

We cannot look into the heart of someone to determine whether or not he is saved, but there are two things we can examine: profession and actions.

First of all, the person who would confess the basic biblical doctrines of Christianity such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, his physical resurrection, justification by grace of faith, etc., is affirming the necessary elements that must be held by faith to be Christian. But, if someone denies that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead physically, or denies justification by grace and faith in Christ alone, and other such essential Christian doctrines and refuses to affirm biblical truth even after proper teaching, then we can safely say that such a person is not saved. Take for example what Jesus said in John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." Jesus was claiming divinity, as is later evidenced by Him using the divine name of God "I AM" in John 8:58 (see Exodus 3:14). The deity of Christ (that he is God in flesh, Col. 2:9), is a necessary doctrine in the Christian faith. So, if someone were to deny openly such an essential doctrine, we could say that the person is not saved.

Second, a person's actions need to be examined to see if they're consistent with his profession. 1 John 2:4 says, “If you say you know him and do not keep his Commandments, the truth is not in you and you are a liar.” So, if someone professes to be a Christian and yet behaves in a manner contrary to that profession, then we would naturally doubt his salvation.

So, let's say that someone is confessing Christ as Savior, but is openly and unrepentantly involved in an adulterous relationship. Such lack of conviction of sin, and lack of struggle against it, is a strong indication that the person does not have the Spirit of God within him. It would be evidence that such a person is not saved.

Finally, we must be very careful not to be too judgmental too quickly. It is a serious thing to say that someone is or is not saved. If you are unsure about the salvation of someone, then you should pray for that person, ask God to work in a person's life, and ask the Lord to give you wisdom.

Source: http://www.carm.org/questions/other-que ... ved-or-not
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

TallMan
Established Member
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:47 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Near London, UK, but I travel
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: When were you saved?

#48

Post by TallMan » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:26 pm

B. W. wrote: ...Speaking in tongues is a gift - not all speak in tongues ...
Yaba Daba Doo!!! Clang goes the cymbal
But I have just adderssed this point directly above you!
(Carnukster had already asked about that same point).

Talk about clanging cymbal!

TallMan
Established Member
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:47 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Near London, UK, but I travel
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: When were you saved?

#49

Post by TallMan » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:42 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:Tallman,
All you've done here is build a house of cards which circle back to a concept that you're imposing upon the word of God and which the Word of God (Christ) never taught nor which Paul directly taught. Tongues in the Scripture are clearly taught as a sign to the unbeliever and you have twisted it to make it a sign to the believer, and not only that but a sign that you extend to an issue of salvation itself!

Do you imagine that tongues are a clear sign of the work of the Holy Spirit in all cases?
Bart, I answered your questions and made a number of points to you.
This took me a while but instead of acknowledging anything you just make these comments and move on to other questions.
Does this approach fit the forum guidelines?

Personally I wouldn't be like that in face-to-face conversation.
If someone answered my question by showing me something I hadn't taken account of I would thank them.

Do you accept any of the points I made?
Which ones do you disagree with?

... Then I will be happy to move on to "other areas"
Canuckster1127 wrote:If you're so inclined you can answer the question as well that prompted this exchange that you have yet to address despite my keeping my side of your proposed bargain to answer your questions before you would provide your scriptural evidence of Paul's speaking in tongues as a sign at the time of his salvation. How about it?
Before you asked this question I answered it on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:23 pm. (you never responded to that).
- The detail of how Paul knew he had received the Spirit before he immediately went out to preach Christ are not repeated because the point is made by God previously.
Luke didn't bother to give the information, and neither should we expect him to, as already explained.
Did you know when you received the Spirit?
If so, how?

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: When were you saved?

#50

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:01 pm

TallMan wrote:
B. W. wrote: ...Speaking in tongues is a gift - not all speak in tongues ...
Yaba Daba Doo!!! Clang goes the cymbal
But I have just adderssed this point directly above you!
(Carnukster had already asked about that same point).

Talk about clanging cymbal!
Addressing the point and answering satisfactorally are two different things. Given that you're the one making the gospel more complicated and restrictive, the onus is on you to demonstrate your point clearly from Scripture and all you have are references to the Holy Spirit that have nothing to do with tongues. Nobody here disputes the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation. Every time the Bible says Holy Spirit or "wind" that doesn't mean tongues and you've woefully failed to present any concrete evidence and what evidence you've attempted to present is so weak that to apply a similar hermeneutic in other realms would completely undermine the word of God.
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ..." 2 Pet. 2:1
I don't invoke this often and certainly not just with people who disagree with me on elements in the Scripture, but in your case, given that you've added elements to the simple gospel message of grace and salvation through Christ and Christ alone by faith, it applies. It's nothing new sadly. United Pentecostalism and Apostolic teachings have been a breeding ground for all kind of false teaching, and sadly a great deal of abuse in their fellowships as well.

I don't believe you've directly answered questions in the past as to your affiliation and it appears given you've answered a post following my questions on other doctrinal issues, that you're either ashamed to answer and reveal further what you're promoting or you're just simply trying to fly under the radar to entice others who might happen along these threads without speaking plainly about the other beliefs you may have in addition to this tongues as the evidence of salvation hobby-horse that you're riding.

In any event, without apology, the teaching of tongues as the initial evidence of salvation is an addition to the Gospel and as such deserves to be exposed for what it is and rejected.

Please be advised that continued promotion of this will garner further attention and action in accordance with the purpose statement and discussion guidelines of this board. More importantly, any who read these things, please look carefully at the arguments presented and ask yourself if the Scripture plainly states what Tallman is claiming. If not then ask yourself why we need this "special knowledge" and private interpretation of Scripture and if accepting it means elevating these special words of knowledge above scripture themselves. The Holy Spirit is evidenced by more than tongues. The Holy Spirit is a person, not a formula.

bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: When were you saved?

#51

Post by Gman » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:54 pm

TallMan wrote: (Carnukster had already asked about that same point).
If you make an ad hominem, does that mean that the holy spirit lives within you?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

User avatar
Gabrielman
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:48 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 13 times
Been liked: 6 times

Re: When were you saved?

#52

Post by Gabrielman » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:59 pm

Been reading through this thread recently and Tallman I have to point out that you are wrong. I am saved and HAVE NEVER spoken in tongues but I AM saved. You are saved by the blood of Jesus, by His grace and love and forgiveness we are all saved! The Holy Spirit has prophesied through me and some of my closest friends can testify to that. God is very personal in my life and is very close to me and He speaks to me. You do not have to speak in tongues to be saved.
Once I was trapped in a perpetual night, without even a star to light the sky. Now I stand in the glory of the Son, and not even a faint shadow of darkness remains.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: When were you saved?

#53

Post by B. W. » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:14 am

TallMan wrote:
B. W. wrote: ...Speaking in tongues is a gift - not all speak in tongues ...
Yaba Daba Doo!!! Clang goes the cymbal
But I have just adderssed this point directly above you!
(Carnukster had already asked about that same point).

Talk about clanging cymbal!
Lighten up - learn to laugh a little... and yes we all are noise makers aren't we :lol:

Now...

As for speaking in unknown languages - I do but speaking in such languages is not a sign, or mark, of being saved. The bible clearly asks a rhetorical question in line with the context, thought and theme being presented in 1 Corinthians 12:30

Look for yourself at the context, thought, and theme presented:

1 Corinthians 12:4, 5 — Diversities gifts, difference in ministries

1 Corinthians 12:10 — another prophecy, another kinds of tongues, another interpretations…

1 Corinthians 12:14 — one body has many members

1 Corinthians 12:16, 17, 18 - Not all are an eyes, not all are ears, each has their own place and gifts

1 Corinthians 12:20, 21 — One cannot say since you are not all eyes — we have no need of you and you don't belong to the body…

1 Corinthians 12:25 — so that there should be no schisms (Are you not the one preaching schisms here?)

1 Corinthians 12:28 — God appoints people in the church with certain gifting in accordance to the role that part of the body of Christ has to play in the overall macro order of the Church Universal.

1 Corinthians 12:29, 30 — then asks and makes the point that not all have the same gifts — even tongues…according to the context, theme, and thought from the above passages. Then Paul goes into 1 Corinthians 13 role and the fruit that these gifts are to produce within the local body of believers.

1 Corinthians 14 ties into the chapters 12 and 13.

1 Corinthians 14:26 — points out clearly not all believers will speak in tongues as each has his or her own gifting for edifying the Body uniting them in deeper relational love for the Lord and each other: therefore, tongues are not the evidence that one is saved as not all will speak in tongues unknown as indicated by the clear context of these three chapters which tie into each other.

1 Corinthians 14:27, 28, 29, 30, 33 — not all will speak in tongues as evident from the context…

1 Corinthians 14:39, 40 — true we are not to forbid speaking in tongues but all things must be respectful and in godly order producing what Paul writes about in 1 Corinthians 13. If not, it is schism based.

Sadly, much of the unknown language issue results in producing schism which I may add appears to be what your doctrine produces — schisms. I speak — pray in unknown tongues but that is for me to do alone or with others who have this gift in intercessory type prayer groups, etc and etc. In church, I do not do this out loud, nor do other members. We remain respectful of the Gift giver and like him, desire no schisms …

Gabrielman is correct: it is by the blood of Christ, God's grace one is saved...
Gabrielman wrote:Been reading through this thread recently and Tallman I have to point out that you are wrong. I am saved and HAVE NEVER spoken in tongues but I AM saved. You are saved by the blood of Jesus, by His grace and love and forgiveness we are all saved! The Holy Spirit has prophesied through me and some of my closest friends can testify to that. God is very personal in my life and is very close to me and He speaks to me. You do not have to speak in tongues to be saved.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

FredFlanders
Familiar Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:14 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: When were you saved?

#54

Post by FredFlanders » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:31 pm

B. W. wrote:
TallMan wrote:
B. W. wrote: ...Speaking in tongues is a gift - not all speak in tongues ...
Yaba Daba Doo!!! Clang goes the cymbal
But I have just adderssed this point directly above you!
(Carnukster had already asked about that same point).

Talk about clanging cymbal!
Lighten up - learn to laugh a little... and yes we all are noise makers aren't we :lol:

Now...

As for speaking in unknown languages - I do but speaking in such languages is not a sign, or mark, of being saved. The bible clearly asks a rhetorical question in line with the context, thought and theme being presented in <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.30" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.30|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:30</A>

Look for yourself at the context, thought, and theme presented:

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ans%2012.4" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.4|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:4</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ans%2012.5" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.5|ESV">5</A> — Diversities gifts, difference in ministries

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.10" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.10|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:10</A> — another prophecy, another kinds of tongues, another interpretations…

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.14" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.14|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:14</A> — one body has many members

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.16" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.16|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:16</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.17" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.17|ESV">17</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.18" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.18|ESV">18</A> - Not all are an eyes, not all are ears, each has their own place and gifts

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.20" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.20|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:20</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.21" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.21|ESV">21</A> — One cannot say since you are not all eyes — we have no need of you and you don't belong to the body…

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.25" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.25|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:25</A> — so that there should be no schisms (Are you not the one preaching schisms here?)

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.28" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.28|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:28</A> — God appoints people in the church with certain gifting in accordance to the role that part of the body of Christ has to play in the overall macro order of the Church Universal.

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.29" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.29|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:29</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2012.30" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.30|ESV">30</A> — then asks and makes the point that not all have the same gifts — even tongues…according to the context, theme, and thought from the above passages. Then Paul goes into 1 Corinthians 13 role and the fruit that these gifts are to produce within the local body of believers.

1 Corinthians 14 ties into the chapters 12 and 13.

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2014.26" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 14.26|ESV">1 Corinthians 14:26</A> — points out clearly not all believers will speak in tongues as each has his or her own gifting for edifying the Body uniting them in deeper relational love for the Lord and each other: therefore, tongues are not the evidence that one is saved as not all will speak in tongues unknown as indicated by the clear context of these three chapters which tie into each other.

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2014.27" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 14.27|ESV">1 Corinthians 14:27</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2014.28" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 14.28|ESV">28</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2014.29" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 14.29|ESV">29</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2014.30" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 14.30|ESV">30</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2014.33" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 14.33|ESV">33</A> — not all will speak in tongues as evident from the context…

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2014.39" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 14.39|ESV">1 Corinthians 14:39</A>, <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... ns%2014.40" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 14.40|ESV">40</A> — true we are not to forbid speaking in tongues but all things must be respectful and in godly order producing what Paul writes about in 1 Corinthians 13. If not, it is schism based.

Sadly, much of the unknown language issue results in producing schism which I may add appears to be what your doctrine produces — schisms. I speak — pray in unknown tongues but that is for me to do alone or with others who have this gift in intercessory type prayer groups, etc and etc. In church, I do not do this out loud, nor do other members. We remain respectful of the Gift giver and like him, desire no schisms …

Gabrielman is correct: it is by the blood of Christ, God's grace one is saved...
Gabrielman wrote:Been reading through this thread recently and Tallman I have to point out that you are wrong. I am saved and HAVE NEVER spoken in tongues but I AM saved. You are saved by the blood of Jesus, by His grace and love and forgiveness we are all saved! The Holy Spirit has prophesied through me and some of my closest friends can testify to that. God is very personal in my life and is very close to me and He speaks to me. You do not have to speak in tongues to be saved.
-
-
-
B.W,

Repentance, Baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit are all separate events. The Holy Spirit promotes/manifests the gifts given to us through our new life in Christ.

To understand 1 Cor 11 to 14 you nee to see the context of the letter Paul was writing to the Corinthians.

The Corinthians were once Gentiles who were not used to “Church' meetings. The women were interrupting the meetings by asking questions, many were talking over each other and at times they were all speaking in tongues at once. So Paul told the Corinthian women to ask their questions to their husbands at home.

Paul said in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is given to ALL to profit the Church. All had some wisdom, some knowledge, some faith, all could speak in tongues, all could lay hands on the sick etc. But this should be done in an orderly fashion in meetings. One to speak on wisdom, one to speak on faith, some to lay hands on the sick, when you speak in tongues let it be 2 or 3 and let this be interpreted if there is some one to interpret etc. Usually in meetings the believers who were more accomplished in these gifts would operate them in the meetings (but all could to some degree) for the benefit of others in the church to help with their faith and growth in Christ. This was done so all things were done decently and in order.

Tongues are essential for our walk and growth in Christ. Paul knew this that is why he thanked God that he prayed in tongues (in his private time) more than anyone else in the Corinthian Church.

Fred.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: When were you saved?

#55

Post by B. W. » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:05 pm

FredFlanders wrote: B.W,

Repentance, Baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit are all separate events. The Holy Spirit promotes/manifests the gifts given to us through our new life in Christ.

To understand 1 Cor 11 to 14 you nee to see the context of the letter Paul was writing to the Corinthians.

The Corinthians were once Gentiles who were not used to “Church' meetings. The women were interrupting the meetings by asking questions, many were talking over each other and at times they were all speaking in tongues at once. So Paul told the Corinthian women to ask their questions to their husbands at home.

Paul said in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is given to ALL to profit the Church. All had some wisdom, some knowledge, some faith, all could speak in tongues, all could lay hands on the sick etc. But this should be done in an orderly fashion in meetings. One to speak on wisdom, one to speak on faith, some to lay hands on the sick, when you speak in tongues let it be 2 or 3 and let this be interpreted if there is some one to interpret etc. Usually in meetings the believers who were more accomplished in these gifts would operate them in the meetings (but all could to some degree) for the benefit of others in the church to help with their faith and growth in Christ. This was done so all things were done decently and in order.

Tongues are essential for our walk and growth in Christ. Paul knew this that is why he thanked God that he prayed in tongues (in his private time) more than anyone else in the Corinthian Church.

Fred.

No problem Fred...

But there is the item of love you missed for the gifts to produce intended results...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

FredFlanders
Familiar Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:14 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: When were you saved?

#56

Post by FredFlanders » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:20 pm

B. W. wrote:
FredFlanders wrote: B.W,

Repentance, Baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit are all separate events. The Holy Spirit promotes/manifests the gifts given to us through our new life in Christ.

To understand 1 Cor 11 to 14 you nee to see the context of the letter Paul was writing to the Corinthians.

The Corinthians were once Gentiles who were not used to “Church' meetings. The women were interrupting the meetings by asking questions, many were talking over each other and at times they were all speaking in tongues at once. So Paul told the Corinthian women to ask their questions to their husbands at home.

Paul said in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is given to ALL to profit the Church. All had some wisdom, some knowledge, some faith, all could speak in tongues, all could lay hands on the sick etc. But this should be done in an orderly fashion in meetings. One to speak on wisdom, one to speak on faith, some to lay hands on the sick, when you speak in tongues let it be 2 or 3 and let this be interpreted if there is some one to interpret etc. Usually in meetings the believers who were more accomplished in these gifts would operate them in the meetings (but all could to some degree) for the benefit of others in the church to help with their faith and growth in Christ. This was done so all things were done decently and in order.

Tongues are essential for our walk and growth in Christ. Paul knew this that is why he thanked God that he prayed in tongues (in his private time) more than anyone else in the Corinthian Church.

Fred.

No problem Fred...

But there is the item of love you missed for the gifts to produce intended results...
-
-
-
BW,

Please explain further on what your “Love” comment is all about?

Fred.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: When were you saved?

#57

Post by B. W. » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:09 pm

FredFlanders wrote:BW,

Please explain further on what your “Love” comment is all about?

Fred.
You being a Christian should know about Christian love…

What does agape /agapeo mean to you?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

FredFlanders
Familiar Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:14 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: When were you saved?

#58

Post by FredFlanders » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:03 am

B. W. wrote:
FredFlanders wrote:BW,

Please explain further on what your “Love” comment is all about?

Fred.
You being a Christian should know about Christian love…

What does agape /agapeo mean to you?
-
-
-
As you don't know BW, I will tell you. The Love of Christ.

Has that confused you BW?

Fred

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: When were you saved?

#59

Post by B. W. » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:17 am

FredFlanders wrote:
B. W. wrote:
FredFlanders wrote:BW,

Please explain further on what your “Love” comment is all about?

Fred.
You being a Christian should know about Christian love…

What does agape /agapeo mean to you?
-
-
-
As you don't know BW, I will tell you. The Love of Christ.

Has that confused you BW?

Fred

How do you define the Love of Christ?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
jlay
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3616
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:47 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: When were you saved?

#60

Post by jlay » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:08 pm

Paul said in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is given to ALL to profit the Church. All had some wisdom, some knowledge, some faith, all could speak in tongues, all could lay hands on the sick etc.
I'm very confused as to how you would read v7 this way. In the context of chapter 12, v7 is making the distinction that the varieties of gifts are all manifest from the same spirit. It would appear you are adding to the plain meaning.

v8 'For to one is given the word of (M)wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of (N)knowledge according to the same Spirit.'
v8-10 clearly indicate that what is given to one, may not be given to another. Thus the distinction, "one vs. another," which is made repeatedly through this section. If I said, I am giving a TV to one, and a football to another," why would you conclude that I am giving some of each to both? By what method do you come to this conclusion? Paul further emphasizes this point by using the distinct and differnt parts of the human anatomy. That each distinct and different part makes up one body. The ear doesn't have the gift of picking things up. And the hand can't hear sounds. But all work together. The hand doesn't have partial hearing, nor the ear partial grasping abilities.

In fact, let's look at what Paul says. v15 "If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body."

If a person says, "I do not speak in tongues, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any less a part of the body.
But this is EXACTLY what you are saying. And I agree with Bart. It is heresy.

Nor does this passage even indicate that what Paul references as 'tongues' is what we see today. Babbling nonsense.
On the day of Pentecost, and when the Gentiles received the same, it is clear that people understood each in their own native tongue.
10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
Why would anyone read into this, that this describes the babbling we hear today? Various kinds of tongues can simply be translated, various kinds of languages.
That means you would be inspired by the Holy Spirit to speak and be heard in various kinds of languages. I have challenged TM and I challege you to give one example of this in your personal life. TM never would. Interpretation simply means you are able to understand a variety of languages. Being that the middle East in those days was a multi-lingual culture, this wouldn't be that surprising. The Apostle Paul was likely well spoken in a variety of languages.

I have been around many speaking in so called 'tongues' and I've yet to recoginze, or hear anyone else recognize a word they've said in any language, their own or otherwise. I know of no events occuring today that replicate what was happening in the day of Pentecost. The Bible gives only one clear example of what 'tongues' looks like, and none of this babbling looks remotely like what the Bible describes in Acts 2.

As best I can tell, people like TM and Fred have bought into this distortion of what the scriptures say, PLAINLY.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

Post Reply