When were you saved?

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DannyM
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Re: When were you saved?

#31

Post by DannyM » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:09 am

Kurieuo wrote:
DannyM wrote:
TallMan wrote:
DannyM wrote: ...Are you asking if I have received grace, or tongues? ...
I'm asking if you have received God's Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, just like all Jesus disciples (Acts 2:4, 33, 39; 10:44-48, 19:1-6) and me & all in the church I'm in.
No, I do not speak in tongues.
Well, you speak one tongue (English). If you learn another, then you're all set! ;)
I speak English and I can speak cockney rhyming slang - does this count? :)
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Re: When were you saved?

#32

Post by DannyM » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:15 am

Byblos wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
DannyM wrote:
TallMan wrote:
DannyM wrote: ...Are you asking if I have received grace, or tongues? ...
I'm asking if you have received God's Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, just like all Jesus disciples (Acts 2:4, 33, 39; 10:44-48, 19:1-6) and me & all in the church I'm in.
No, I do not speak in tongues.
Well, you speak one tongue (English). If you learn another, then you're all set! ;)
In that case, I'm definitely all set. I speak 3 tongues 8-}2 .
Byblos, may I be nosy and ask which two other languages you speak?
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Re: When were you saved?

#33

Post by Byblos » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:04 pm

DannyM wrote:Byblos, may I be nosy and ask which two other languages you speak?
Arabic (my native tongue so-to-speak) and French (not very fluently but I can get by).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: When were you saved?

#34

Post by DannyM » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:00 pm

Byblos wrote:
DannyM wrote:Byblos, may I be nosy and ask which two other languages you speak?
Arabic (my native tongue so-to-speak) and French (not very fluently but I can get by).
Thanks... So, basically you speak near-multiple tongues... ;)
Last edited by DannyM on Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When were you saved?

#35

Post by TallMan » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:02 pm

DannyM wrote:
TallMan wrote:
DannyM wrote: ...Are you asking if I have received grace, or tongues? ...
I'm asking if you have received God's Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, just like all Jesus disciples (Acts 2:4, 33, 39; 10:44-48, 19:1-6) and me & all in the church I'm in.
No, I do not speak in tongues.
You will when you receive the salvation I mentioned, you will be in good company!

Here's one of many testimonies I could share:
I was on chat and spoke to Josh, 15 from America.
He had seen TV-evangelists speak in tongues in front of the camera which is wrong
and he saw no purpose to it, but he was intreagued.
I told Him it's God leading a person in prayer (God knows best), he asked how he goes
about this, I told him to close his eyes (to stop distractions) and *expect* God to *do*
what Acts describes. He said:-
"ok I'll give it a go, can you wait 5 minutes ?"
I said "Ok"

15 seconds later he typed "wow!"
and described the strange words coming from him.... he was amazed how
easy it was...well of course he did as Jesus says:- "enter as a little child" !

He asked me to stay takling & answering questions, so I did. I mentioned:-
John:7:37: In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and
cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
:38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his
belly shall flow rivers of living water.


He said hed read that before, but NOW he appreciated it!

24 hours later I chat with him again:-
I mentioned baptism, he accepted his "baptism" at 11 was to please his parents,
he then asked if he needed to find a "tongues church", I asked if he would be willing
for us to come and baptise him, he said ok.

He's already been busy - prayed for a friend with a problem that went 10
mins later, and started talking to his dad, they had not spoken in 2 years
because dad is a "conservative" and Josh was rebelling against society, he was punk
with green hair. . . now he is beginning to see he has a better message to give society.

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Re: When were you saved?

#36

Post by DannyM » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:11 pm

TallMan wrote:You will when you receive the salvation I mentioned, you will be in good company!

Here's one of many testimonies I could share:
I was on chat and spoke to Josh, 15 from America.
He had seen TV-evangelists speak in tongues in front of the camera which is wrong
and he saw no purpose to it, but he was intreagued.
I told Him it's God leading a person in prayer (God knows best), he asked how he goes
about this, I told him to close his eyes (to stop distractions) and *expect* God to *do*
what Acts describes. He said:-
"ok I'll give it a go, can you wait 5 minutes ?"
I said "Ok"

15 seconds later he typed "wow!"
and described the strange words coming from him.... he was amazed how
easy it was...well of course he did as Jesus says:- "enter as a little child" !

He asked me to stay takling & answering questions, so I did. I mentioned:-
John:7:37: In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and
cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
:38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his
belly shall flow rivers of living water.


He said hed read that before, but NOW he appreciated it!

24 hours later I chat with him again:-
I mentioned baptism, he accepted his "baptism" at 11 was to please his parents,
he then asked if he needed to find a "tongues church", I asked if he would be willing
for us to come and baptise him, he said ok.

He's already been busy - prayed for a friend with a problem that went 10
mins later, and started talking to his dad, they had not spoken in 2 years
because dad is a "conservative" and Josh was rebelling against society, he was punk
with green hair. . . now he is beginning to see he has a better message to give society.
TM, this is good. This can ONLY be good. Can you explain to me WHAT speaking in tongues actually means?
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Re: When were you saved?

#37

Post by BavarianWheels » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:26 pm

.
.
Tongues: According to Scripture
1 Corinthians 14:22-33 wrote:Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
.
.

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Re: When were you saved?

#38

Post by TallMan » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:54 pm

DannyM wrote:TM, this is good. This can ONLY be good. Can you explain to me WHAT speaking in tongues actually means?
Sure!
It means speaking/praying to God in an unlearned language that he gives you, rather like a parent leads a small child into what it has for it.

"he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries. .. He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself" (1 Cor. 14:2-4)

It is unknown to the speaker (as distinct from praying with your understanding - see 1 Cor. 14:14-18).
This is miraculous, and it edifies (builds up) the speaker spiritually, as Jude 20-21 says:
"ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God"

People speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, it is not from their mind.

Why does he do this?
"the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)
- We don't know to get "the peace that passes understanding", the "joy unspeakable", the power of God etc, but the Spirit does!

* * * * *

A few Old Testament Prophecies that it fulfils:
"with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear" (Isaiah 28:11-12, quoted by Paul in 1 Cor. 14:21-22)

"For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent" (Zeph.3:9)

"I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications" (Zech.12:10)
- Fulfilled at Pentecost where "they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues" (tongues is "supplications in the Spirit"), but Peter said that this promise would be to all whom The Lord would call (Acts 2v4, 33, 39)

- that means you and me!

* * * * *

Note: the verses BW quoted relate to the meetings-use of tongues, "the gift of tongues", as a sign to visitors.
The MAIN use is the personal private oprayer that I have detailed.

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding" (1 Cor. 14:18-19)
Last edited by TallMan on Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: When were you saved?

#39

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:59 pm

TallMan wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote: ... It's amazing that something that important would not have been mentioned by Christ directly Himself, don't you think? Especially something that was so key as to the the initial sign of salvation.
Jesus said:
"Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:7-8)
- what is he referring to?

Be honest, do you know?

in v12 hge explains that he is talking about something earthy, something our natural senses can perceive.


In John 14:20 Jesus says:
"At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you"
- what was that day when Jesus would be in them?
- how did they know?
Canuckster1127 wrote:I mean, Christ was baptized and despite John the Baptists protestations that it wasn't necessary. When did Christ speak in tongues if this was such a vital sign? Pretty glaring ommission to leave out of the inspired word of God don't you think for something so "absolutely vital"? If Christ modeled baptist to perform all righteousness, then why didn't he model tongues?
The inspired word of God says that Jesus was born under the law and that the New Testament cound't begin until after the death of the testator.

The price had to be paid before the sould could be purchased.
Canuckster1127 wrote:Religious performance as the basis for God's love and acceptance is just the saddest way to live. And yet there's some sort of pride in the human heart that just rebels against the idea that God loves us and Christ has paid the entire price. We want to "do" something other than accept what Christ has done for us,
People could not understand or accept what Christ had done until after he had done it.
The true disciples did at Pentecost, sadly many today are still missing the point and fighting against the way of grace.
Canuckster1127 wrote: because that way we can say we're enough apart from God that God will just elevate us above others so we can feel better than others. It's the same spirit that drove James and John to ask Christ if they could sit on the thrones beside Christ when he came into his kingdom. At least they asked. Legalism shows up before God and expects to be seated on its own merit.
Legalism meant that the Pharisees couldn't accept that they had got God wrong when someone came along and told them, from the scriptures, backed up with God's signs!
- Nothing has changed y(:|
Tallman,

Thanks for the correction as to the answering of your questions. For a moment there I imagined that I was a board moderator and had the right and responsibility to ask questions. :eugeek:

So since you wish an answer with regard to your questions above I will oblige you and then per your offered deal I will look forward to your answering my question with regard to the scriptural evidence of Paul evidencing tongues as the initial evidence of salvation.

You ask me if I know what Jesus is referring to in John 3:7-8. Jesus is referring to the Holy Spirit. The word in Greek "pneuma" is the same word used for wind. Jesus is referring to the sound of the wind as an analogy for how we can see the evidence of something we cannot see but which nevertheless exists and has influence upon that which we can see.

I am not the one attempting to infer that that verse is specifically referring to tongues, you appear to be. Therefore the onus is upon you to demonstrate your case, not simply raise doubts as to the plausibility of it being what you wish to suggest.

If you were attempting to make the case that tongues can be an external sign of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life in terms of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that would be one thing. You however, are making the assertion that tongues is the sign of regenerative salvation which means by definition that you are asserting that anyone who has not spoken in tonguesas a direct result result of the work of the Holy Spirit at the specific time of salvation is not saved.

It seems to me that such a position would have more direct support in scripture than attempting to take any such reference to the Holy Spirit or Wind (which again are the same root word in greek) and then attempting to infer back such a definitive statement.

When someone makes such a claim and then claims to exclude from salvation anyone who has does not follow their prescribed experience of teaching then I take that as deadly serious, because you are now calling upon people to follow your teaching and base their salvation upon it.

I'll state it clearly. What I see you saying here is not simply a matter of opinion. You're making it a point of salvation. Prove your point with clear support, not attempting to create confusion and then slipping in the back door with your proposed solution. What you are saying here would cause people whom I believe are scripturally saved to doubt their salvation based upon your teaching. Teaching that makes a claim to the extent of salvation and the exclusion of others outside of Biblical orthodoxy is by definition a cult.

Please prove me wrong if I am misunderstanding the extent of your claim. I will not tolerate the abuse of my savior's sheep with this tripe.
In John 14:20 Jesus says:
"At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you"
- what was that day when Jesus would be in them?
- how did they know?
You're assuming several things here not in the text. The day referred to could be Pentecost or it could be a further date in the eschaton when Christ returns to claim his sheep. It's not clear. Assume, for the sake of argument that you are correct and he is referring to Pentecost, then why would you assume the sign then to be only tongues? Why should there not be a sound of mighty rushing wind and tongues of flame (or something that appeared like it) above the heads? Is your doctrine a buffet to be picked at as one chooses?

Again I'll speak plainly. You've taken a parsley garnish and are attempting to make it the steak!

Tongues is mentioned 3 out of 5 times in Acts when the filling of the Holy Spirit takes place. Acts 2 is the inaugral time with his selected disciples and apostles. Another is at the time of the first salvation of a gentile and it appears to me to be a sign sealing the authenticity of God's accepting the Gentiles (interestingly enough the sign I believe was for the Jews and it became a basis for them to know that God had accepted the Gentiles apart from the legalism of the OT Jews and it became a cited cause of overturning that legalism in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem Council.) It never ceases to amaze me that such a declaration of grace then would be twisted by any to now attempt to cast doubts in the hearts of Christ's sheep based on so few passages.

Paul was free under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit at any time to state plainly that if tongues were not evidences a person was not saved. He did not do it despite many very technical and thorough passages in Romans and elsewhere that address salvation. Are you greater than Paul? Are you greater than Christ?

Just who do you think you are coming before others and claiming that you have this understanding of scriptures to know what it does not state plainly? By what right or authority do you cast doubt upon the hearts of Christ's sheep by suggesting that you are saved and others are not if they haven't evidenced tongues as a basis of salvation?

I suggest you answer or clarify and while you're at it, please check the board discussion guidelines and purpose.

To others, I apologize. I rarely get this angry, but this is worth getting angry about. Differences of opinion are fine and even necessary in the body of Christ. A teaching such as this however goes to the heart of salvation and it is in my opinion placing a millstone about the necks of Christ's children for any who do not know better or who are enticed to follow this type of legalistic, unscriptural tripe.
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts.
There's a question for you Tallman. Not from me, but from Paul. Maybe you can answer that too.

bart
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Re: When were you saved?

#40

Post by TallMan » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:11 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:So since you wish an answer with regard to your questions above I will oblige you and then per your offered deal I will look forward to your answering my question ...
Hello Bart, I just like to reach conclusions and hopefully agreement before moving on to other points.
I'll look forward to continuing tomorrow if I have time. it's late here now & I need to be up at about 9am tomorrow.

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Re: When were you saved?

#41

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:17 pm

TallMan wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:So since you wish an answer with regard to your questions above I will oblige you and then per your offered deal I will look forward to your answering my question ...
Hello Bart, I just like to reach conclusions and hopefully agreement before moving on to other points.
I'll look forward to continuing tomorrow if I have time. it's late here now & I need to be up at about 9am tomorrow.
I'll hold you to that. Please address these issues before moving on to other points and posts.
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Re: When were you saved?

#42

Post by Gman » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:04 pm

Tallman,

Perhaps this post will help you with the understanding of tongues.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=tongues
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Re: When were you saved?

#43

Post by DannyM » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:08 am

TallMan wrote:
DannyM wrote:TM, this is good. This can ONLY be good. Can you explain to me WHAT speaking in tongues actually means?
Sure!
It means speaking/praying to God in an unlearned language that he gives you, rather like a parent leads a small child into what it has for it.

"he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries. .. He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself" (1 Cor. 14:2-4)

It is unknown to the speaker (as distinct from praying with your understanding - see 1 Cor. 14:14-18).
This is miraculous, and it edifies (builds up) the speaker spiritually, as Jude 20-21 says:
"ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God"

People speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, it is not from their mind.

Why does he do this?
"the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)
- We don't know to get "the peace that passes understanding", the "joy unspeakable", the power of God etc, but the Spirit does!

* * * * *

A few Old Testament Prophecies that it fulfils:
"with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear" (Isaiah 28:11-12, quoted by Paul in 1 Cor. 14:21-22)

"For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent" (Zeph.3:9)

"I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications" (Zech.12:10)
- Fulfilled at Pentecost where "they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues" (tongues is "supplications in the Spirit"), but Peter said that this promise would be to all whom The Lord would call (Acts 2v4, 33, 39)

- that means you and me!

* * * * *

Note: the verses BW quoted relate to the meetings-use of tongues, "the gift of tongues", as a sign to visitors.
The MAIN use is the personal private oprayer that I have detailed.

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding" (1 Cor. 14:18-19)
TM, thank you for clarifying that for me. I respect your experiences, and am happy if they bring you (and Josh) joy. But, as Bart has stated, I'm a little uncomfortable with you seemingly thinking that tongues are a requirement for salvation. I think this approach is anti-biblical. I respect you have only good intentions, but am a little concerned that (Josh) this young boy might be preaching to others the same line on salvation. Anyway, I don't wish to jump all over you on this, and will leave you with Bart's very serious questions, and maybe we'll talk a little more on the tongues soon.

God bless
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Re: When were you saved?

#44

Post by TallMan » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:10 am

Canuckster1127 wrote: ...You ask me if I know what Jesus is referring to in John 3:7-8. Jesus is referring to the Holy Spirit. The word in Greek "pneuma" is the same word used for wind.
um, well my exhaustive concordance lists the word "wind" 27 times, 24 refer to wind such as on the sea of Galilee or "a reed shaken in the wind" where the word is "anemos" not pneuma, and refers to general wind.
The word pneuma is used when referring to a gust of wind, something sudden and noticeable, a gust. This is found here in John 3:8, Acts 2:2 (Pentecost) and a couple of times in Acts.
Canuckster1127 wrote: Jesus is referring to the sound of the wind as an analogy for how we can see the evidence of something we cannot see but which nevertheless exists and has influence upon that which we can see.
I am not the one attempting to infer that that verse is specifically referring to tongues, you appear to be. Therefore the onus is upon you to demonstrate your case, not simply raise doubts as to the plausibility of it being what you wish to suggest.
OK, well, "God is not the author of confusion", "if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" (1 Cor. 14:33, 8 ) ... one would expect something as VITAL as being born again should be clearly identified!

You don't have to leave it "up in the air", open to private interpretation... you can simply look at Acts where the Spirity was given to see preciusely what Jesus must have been referring to!

What was seen to enable the apostles to know when the wind of God's Spirit had blown into the hearts of people?

The answer is clearly demonstrated in scriptures I have already quoted!
If anyone dares to say there is another way, the onus is on them to demonstrate it!
Canuckster1127 wrote:
In John 14:20 Jesus says:
"At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you"
- what was that day when Jesus would be in them?
- how did they know?
You're assuming several things here not in the text. The day referred to could be Pentecost or it could be a further date in the eschaton when Christ returns to claim his sheep. It's not clear.
Jesus teaches that it would be clear to His disciples when he was in them and when he was in the Father. Did the disciples not know?
Of course they knew! It was clear to them!

In Acts 2:33 Peter stated: "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." referring to the speaking in tongues as a result of receiving the promised Holy Spirit ... which is Christ in a person:

"ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you ..." (Romans 8:9-10)
Canuckster1127 wrote: Assume, for the sake of argument that you are correct and he is referring to Pentecost, then why would you assume the sign then to be only tongues?
1) because that was the only sign when people received the Spirit (other things happened after that)
2) because if there was an alternative sign (or no sign), Peter & the other apostles later in Acts could not say that people had just received the Spirit when they spoke in tongues, logically, they could only say that they had, at some unknown time previously received the Spirit, but they didn't.
- Please understand this point.
Canuckster1127 wrote: Why should there not be a sound of mighty rushing wind and tongues of flame (or something that appeared like it) above the heads? Is your doctrine a buffet to be picked at as one chooses?
The wind (breath) occurred befoire they received the Spirit, as did the fire, which demonstrated the transferrance from the Old to the New Testament (in the Old Testament, God appeared in fire, now his presence, his temple is individuals that are born of His Spirit, his sons & daughters).

It is not me that is "picking" at scriptures by offering varying experiences of supposedly receiving God's Spirit. I say it's the same for all, all are called to receive the infilling of God's Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues.
God united Jew and Gentile this way (se Acts 10:44-48, 11:14-18), how dare anyone come along now and make a division saying there is another way without tongues?
Canuckster1127 wrote: Tongues is mentioned 3 out of 5 times in Acts when the filling of the Holy Spirit takes place. Acts 2 is the inaugral time with his selected disciples and apostles.
The giving of the law was inaugural, does that mean that later generations should not bother with circumcision, the sign of entering that covenant?
Peter plainly stated that the promised Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues was for all whom God would call - vv33, 39.
Some people don't seem to appreciate that a Covenant CANNOT be messed about with:

Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.(Gal. 3:15)

Jude warns of those who would seek to change the faith once delivered to the saints, making a distinction between those who don't have the Spirit, and the beloved who should "pray in the Spirit" (Jude 3, 19-20)

The apostles are said to be the foundation, I would expect the same salvation experience as them and his disciples, otherwise you have a "pick and choose" covenant where people say "ah yes, that was just for them...".
Canuckster1127 wrote:Paul was free under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit at any time to state plainly that if tongues were not evidences a person was not saved. He did not do it despite many very technical and thorough passages in Romans and elsewhere that address salvation.
Acts 19:1-6 details Paul ministering salvation to people. We read that Paul knew that just because a person professes belief does not mean they have received the Spirit, and there must be a way of knowing that you have received, or Paul would not begin by asking the question:
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? (v2)

Later when they did believe he baptised them , but he knew they still hadn't actually received the Spirit - how?
Then he knew precisely when they received the Spirit - how?

The bible says "they spoke in tongues and prophesied" .. just like in Acts 2 where after receiving the Spirit & speaking in tongues, Peter stood up and preached and prophesied. We see that they spoke in tongues first, indeed prophecy alone cannot be the sign of entering the new covenant because numerous people spoke in tongues before the Spirit was given, includingh King Saul, Balaam and the High Priest.

The letters are written to people that have already received salvation, dealing with questions and issues that mattered to theose people.
Nevertheless, I believe you will have enormous difficulty making sense of Paul's comments on receiving the Spirit and tongues if you believe that only some people speak in tongues when they receive the Spirit. What was Paul referring to here:

"ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:15-16)

and here:
because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Gal.4:6)

Praying in tongues

Paul states that if he prays in the Spirit, his understanding is unfruitful, so, he will not understand what he says...

Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

(1 Cor. 14:13-18)

Paul admonishes ALL Christians to pray in the Spirit (Romans 8:26, Eph.6:18), how do you do it if you don't speak in tongues??
Canuckster1127 wrote: Are you greater than Paul? Are you greater than Christ?
No! That's why I make sure I understand and am faithful to what they taught!
Canuckster1127 wrote:
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts.
There's a question for you Tallman. Not from me, but from Paul. Maybe you can answer that too.

bart
The context (read from chapter 11) is that Paul has been teaching on what should happen in meetings.
If you disagree with this, please read a few verses up where it says
"to one is given the word of wisdom, to another ... knowledge... to another faith... tongues..."

If this passage refers to what different people get when they become Christians then it is saying that only "one" or perhaps only some get faith, knwoedle, etc... do you believe this?

How can you even be a Christian without these things?

No, it is precisely because they all have these attributes (see 1:4-7 of this letter) that there needs to be limitation and order when all meet.
The Corinthians were all acting as one member, all speak in tongues (as chap. 14 further makes clear), wherefore Paul reasons with them that they know that not all are apostles etc in the church, so why are theyt all presuming to gife messages in tongues in the church.

If it were true that only some could speak in tongues, the problem of all doing so could never arise so this passage would never have been needed to be written!

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Re: When were you saved?

#45

Post by B. W. » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:05 am

We need a little comic levity here — We all are getting way to serious!

So a little levity...

Did Fred Flintstone speak in tongues ? Yaba Dada Doo!

Or is Warf from Star Trek speaking in Klingon — an unknown tongue?

Or Lassie — ark-bark, arf- arf bark - bark! Interpretationlittle Timmy is trapped in Marlow's cave — follow me!

More serious observation below:

Speaking in tongues is a gift - not all speak in tongues

1 Co 12:30 - "Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way." NKJV

1 Co 13:1 - "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal." NKJV
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Yaba Daba Doo!!! Clang goes the cymbal
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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