Preterism

[twoedgedsword]

let me ask an even deeper ?
can any of you say that you could endure the suffering put on early christians if it came to that.


for example burning at the stake or boiled to death?
or how about being ground into hamburger by a plastic shredder feet first. im sure that the anti-christ can come up with some doozies.

[puritan lad]

let me ask an even deeper ?
can any of you say that you could endure the suffering put on early christians if it came to that.


for example burning at the stake or boiled to death?
or how about being ground into hamburger by a plastic shredder feet first. im sure that the anti-christ can come up with some doozies.

Why do you think that you'll have to face this? And just who is the anti-christ, according to the Bible?

[kateliz]

Good questions to ask oneself, twoedgedsword. I used to think that I wouldn't have feared being in that storm in that boat with Jesus, and that I would've sunk like Peter did in the water, and that I wouldn't have betrayed him or run away or cut off an ear. God has humbled me since then and shown me my lack of faith and something of how weak I am. I can now say that I could only endure such things willingly if God gave me the grace to do so.

Wasn't He able to keep the three from burning in the furnance? Wasn't He able to keep Daniel from injury in the lion's den?

And what about the other martyrs who displayed that they suffered no pain? One guy asked a Christian about to be burned at the stake to raise his arms while in flames if he didn't feel any pain. After he was well cooked both arms went up. Then what's-his-face, who at first ran away from his martyrdom and then came back to face it, held the hand that signed his former recantation first in the fire to burn. He held it in the flames on purpose, took it out to wipe sweat off his forehead, and then put it back in. He told friends the night before, who tried to get him to recant again, that God can keep you from the pain of the martyrdom, and demonstrated it by burning the tip of his finger to the bone right there before them in the flame of a candle or something. I've read several stories where that was proven true.

[j316]

Good questions to ask oneself, twoedgedsword. I used to think that I wouldn't have feared being in that storm in that boat with Jesus, and that I would've sunk like Peter did in the water, and that I wouldn't have betrayed him or run away or cut off an ear. God has humbled me since then and shown me my lack of faith and something of how weak I am. I can now say that I could only endure such things willingly if God gave me the grace to do so.

Wasn't He able to keep the three from burning in the furnance? Wasn't He able to keep Daniel from injury in the lion's den?

And what about the other martyrs who displayed that they suffered no pain? One guy asked a Christian about to be burned at the stake to raise his arms while in flames if he didn't feel any pain. After he was well cooked both arms went up. Then what's-his-face, who at first ran away from his martyrdom and then came back to face it, held the hand that signed his former recantation first in the fire to burn. He held it in the flames on purpose, took it out to wipe sweat off his forehead, and then put it back in. He told friends the night before, who tried to get him to recant again, that God can keep you from the pain of the martyrdom, and demonstrated it by burning the tip of his finger to the bone right there before them in the flame of a candle or something. I've read several stories where that was proven true.

Kateliz, here is a website referring to what you just said.http://www.satucket.com/lectionary/Lati ... ranmer.htm

[j316]

To get back to the previous topic, does it seem possible to anyone that the supposed mark might be connected with some sort of buying club or something similar? I'm thinking along the lines of such an apparent good deal that one would have to think twice to turn it down. This would some future international organization with enormous market power, some implanted ID would almost be a practical necessity.

Also I agree that Jesus return may not be any clearer to the church than His first appearance, He said He would come as a thief.

[puritan lad]

To get back to the previous topic, does it seem possible to anyone that the supposed mark might be connected with some sort of buying club or something similar? I'm thinking along the lines of such an apparent good deal that one would have to think twice to turn it down. This would some future international organization with enormous market power, some implanted ID would almost be a practical necessity.

Also I agree that Jesus return may not be any clearer to the church than His first appearance, He said He would come as a thief.

No. The mark is exactly what the Bible says, it is "the number of a man", and "the number of his name". The gematria of Nero Caesar is 666.

Also remember who John was writing to. He was writing to 7 first century churches about things that "must shortly take place", were "at hand", and "were about to come upon the whole world". It was this audience who was told to "calculate the number of the beast". To try and make this a 21st century prophecy makes it totally irrelevent to the original audience.

[Fortigurn]

I agree there are many Anti-Christs but there will be one that will have so much Evil that he will be called the ANTI_CHRIST. If I only had an Echo Machine! It would give it so much more dramatic Effect!!!

To be honest, I think that the only reason why the later Church Fathers endorsed the end times view was for just that reason: drama! Just one of many unbiblical tactics used in order to keep the citizens of Byzantium in line. When faced with a problem of how to keep order without stretching your millitary, it's so much easier to say you will be eternally tortured in Hell, or you will by allies with the Anti-Christ if you don't obey the Church.

It's an interesting theory, but I would like to see some evidence for it.

[Fortigurn]

The gematria of Nero Caesar is 666.

That's Nero's praenomen, and honorific (actually an honorific inhertited patronymically), but that his not his 'name' in the properl sense, because it does not contain his gens, or his other cognomen.

Nero's full name would have been something like Nero Claudius Domitius filius Caius nepos Drusus pronepos Caesar, which does not add up to 666.

Given that the coinage of the day refers to him in a range of ways but never as 'Neron Kaiser', then the 'Nero Caesar' argument is mere guesswork.

Coinage during Nero's reign refers to him as:

* Imperator Nero Claudius Caesar
* Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator
* Nero Caesar Augustus
* Nero Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator

That's a list of references to Nero on coins from AD 54 to AD 68 (his entire reign). None of these add up to 666. Nowhere do we find him referred to as 'Neron Kaiser' (Nero Casesar). If the common people were going to refer to Nero, they would be most likely to refer to him using the name they most commoly saw - the name on coinage in current use.

This is the problem with these Praeterist arguments - not only are they the merest guesswork, but they ignore (and don't even attempt to investigate), contemporary evidence which proves them to be wildly inaccurate. Such suggestions are merely post hoc arguments which are created to support prior suppositions.

Also remember who John was writing to. He was writing to 7 first century churches about things that "must shortly take place", were "at hand", and "were about to come upon the whole world". It was this audience who was told to "calculate the number of the beast". To try and make this a 21st century prophecy makes it totally irrelevent to the original audience.

I agree that part of John's prophecy was speaking of events shortly to come to pass, but not all of it.

[Fortigurn]

Agreed and on top of that the Prophecy in Daniel was only fulfilled in 1948 when Israel became a Nation again...

Which prophecy in Daniel? I can think of a number of prophecies which were fulfilled by the return of the Jews to their land, but none from Daniel which come immediately to mind.

[Fortigurn]

A criticism of Praeterism can be found here.

[Fortigurn]

Bizzzzt!

sorry it took me so long to reply, I've been out of town.

Im not saying that I'm right I'm really not , but i do believe that we can discern the time that we are in and know more than anyone els in history that the time is near, very near.
I do alot of studying on the subject and know for certain that we will not see 2019 because of the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:32-35.
May 14, 1948 was the blooming of the fig tree which was the beginning of the last generation

Christ does not actually say that the 'blooming of the fig tree' is the sign of his return.

[Fortigurn]

1.) There is no person called “antichrist” in the Bible. “Antichrist” is defined as anyone “who denies the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22). There are lots of “antichrists” out there, and Nero (the beast) was surely one.
2.) The word “antichrist” does not appear in either Daniel or Revelation, and requires some very sloppy exegesis to find a future world dictator in either. (Much less a “peace treaty”)

Excellent work.

3.) The Battle of Armageddon (har, Megiddo — “hill of Megiddo”) was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.

For a good article on Nero as the Beast, check out http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast.html

Alas, this is not so great. It is not supportable from Scripture or history.

It interests me that a 'Reformed' site would be supporting Praeterism (Historicism is the traditional position of the Reformed faith), but anything is possible these days.

[puritan lad]

Given that the coinage of the day refers to him in a range of ways but never as 'Neron Kaiser', then the 'Nero Caesar' argument is mere guesswork.

Coinage during Nero's reign refers to him as:

* Imperator Nero Claudius Caesar
* Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator
* Nero Caesar Augustus
* Nero Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator

That's a list of references to Nero on coins from AD 54 to AD 68 (his entire reign). None of these add up to 666. Nowhere do we find him referred to as 'Neron Kaiser' (Nero Casesar). If the common people were going to refer to Nero, they would be most likely to refer to him using the name they most commoly saw - the name on coinage in current use.

This is the problem with these Praeterist arguments - not only are they the merest guesswork, but they ignore (and don't even attempt to investigate), contemporary evidence which proves them to be wildly inaccurate. Such suggestions are merely post hoc arguments which are created to support prior suppositions.

The Roman coinage argument is irrelevant, Revelation was written by a Jew who writes in Greek and thinks in Hebrew (See Revelation 9:11, 16:16). Therefore we would expect John to calculate the gematria of the Greek spelling nwrn qsr which equals 666. Also, some Latin transcripts have the number 616. Interestingly enough, the gematria of the Latin spelling of Nero's name (nrw qsr) is 616. Coincidence? I don't believe so.

Marcus Jastrow's lexicon of the Talmud lists Nero Caesar as Nwrn Qsr.

[puritan lad]

3.) The Battle of Armageddon (har, Megiddo — “hill of Megiddo”) was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.

For a good article on Nero as the Beast, check out http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast.html

Alas, this is not so great. It is not supportable from Scripture or history.

It interests me that a 'Reformed' site would be supporting Praeterism (Historicism is the traditional position of the Reformed faith), but anything is possible these days.

Are you referring to my comment on Armageddon or the Beast Article (or both)? What are your specific objections here?

Most Reformed churches accept many endtimes views, except Dispensationalism.

[Fortigurn]

The Roman coinage argument is irrelevant, Revelation was written by a Jew who writes in Greek and thinks in Hebrew (See Revelation 9:11, 16:16). Therefore we would expect John to calculate the gematria of the Greek spelling nwrn qsr which equals 666.

I'm sorry, but you're blatantly ignoring the historical evidence. Not only was Revelation written by a Jew who writes in Greek and thinks in Hebrew, he was a Jew who lived in the Roman empire, and used phrases in common usage.

If he was referring to Nero, then he would have to be using a gematria which actually added up to a name by which Nero was commonly known, or his meaning couldn't be deciphered.

You have provided absolutely no evidence that anyone would have understood Nero to be referred to as 'nwrn qsr' (Nero Caesar), and the historical evidence says otherwise.

Also, some Latin transcripts have the number 616.

Latin transcripts are a bit late to make the grade I'm afraid. They do not represent textual evidence, they represent versional corruptions.

Interestingly enough, the gematria of the Latin spelling of Nero's name (nrw qsr) is 616. Coincidence? I don't believe so.

Unfortunately you are now arguing directly against your premise that John was a Jew who wrote in Greek and thought in Hebrew. You now have him thinking in Latin. You can't have it both ways.

Marcus Jastrow's lexicon of the Talmud lists Nero Caesar as Nwrn Qsr.

Firstly, which Talmud? Talmud Babylon or Talmud Jerusalem? Secondly, Talmudic evidence is far too late - the compilation of the Talmud didn't start until probably the 5th century. This is not proximate historical evidence.

Thirdly, the proximate historical evidence (1st century Roman coinage), demonstrates that Nero was not known as 'Nero Caesar'.