All Israel Will Be Saved

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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DBowling
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All Israel Will Be Saved

#1

Post by DBowling » Sun May 02, 2021 9:10 am

In Romans 11:25-26 Paul makes the following statement:
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved.
What is Paul talking about here?

Who or what is "All Israel"?

Mike Heiser discusses four options in this podcast.
What does “All Israel will be saved” Mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69o06N5WLek

My understanding leans heavily on what Paul says in Galatians 3:26-29.

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#2

Post by Philip » Sun May 02, 2021 2:50 pm

And here (https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/wp-conten ... -Saved.pdf) is a helpful text version breaking down the above four views that "All Israel will be saved."

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#3

Post by DBowling » Sun May 02, 2021 5:34 pm

Philip wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 2:50 pm
And here (https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/wp-conten ... -Saved.pdf) is a helpful text version breaking down the above four views that "All Israel will be saved."
That is a great link, Philip!

Now we can search and copy/paste from a text document. :)

BTW... I totally agree with Heiser that "All Israel" in essence refers to the Church.

But I disagree strongly with Replacement Theology that says the Church has "replaced" Israel as "God's covenant people".
That is actually one area where I disagree with Kenneth Gentry. I agree with much of Gentry's Partial Preterism, but he appears (to me at least) to wander too close to Replacement Theology for my comfort.

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#4

Post by RickD » Wed May 05, 2021 8:43 am

all Israel will be saved.
It’s official...they’ve reached herd immunity.

:shijacked:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#5

Post by Philip » Wed May 05, 2021 9:10 am

Nope, no "herd immunity" for Israel or Jews! See Romans 2:28–29.

Ah, but aren't the Jews called in Scripture the Sons of Abraham? See Galatians 3:7 for who are the TRUE "Sons of Abraham." Some of these End Times scenarios asserted conveniently avoid key Scriptures by making claims about Israel and the Jews. Of course, Jesus Himself condemned many Jews during his time on earth - particularly the religious leaders.

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#6

Post by DBowling » Wed May 05, 2021 9:58 am

Jesus has some interesting (and harsh) words about who are truly Abraham's children and who are "sons of God"

John 8:31-47
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly My disciples; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 Now the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you really will be free. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you are seeking to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak of the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born as a result of sexual immorality; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come on My own, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I say the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 The one who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
One other quick point...
The Church is the continuation of the faithful remnant of Israel

The head of the Church is the Jewish Messiah and the King of the Jews
The 12 Apostles were Jews.
And the very first Christians were also Jews.
So the Church has NOT REPLACED Israel.
The Church is the ongoing continuation of the faithful remnant of Israel.

As Galatians 3 tells us...
Anyone who puts their faith in the Jewish Messiah and the King of the Jews becomes "Abraham's seed" and is grafted into the True Israel of God (Romans 11).
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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#7

Post by Ged » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:59 pm

My thoughts in diagrammatic form. y*-:) "All" Israel is at the far right hand side of the picture.

Image
"Your name and renown
is the desire of our hearts."
(Isaiah 26:8)

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#8

Post by Philip » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:37 am

If I'm reading Ged's diagram correctly, this is about what my understandings are to do with Israel and Jews - that a large, BELIEVING remnant will eventually embrace Jesus as Messiah, before Jesus comes back. But the idea of some, concerning the Jews - "If you're a Jew, you're IN!" - simply cannot be reconciled with Scripture. And believers will come from ALL nations to salvation. Whatever all precipitates this revival is going to be very interesting. But there already is a moral divide across societies, that has begun with a simple awareness of whatever evils various groups and people are embracing that their gut tells them is both wrong and very dangerous. But that moral divide must go deeper, to accepting / committing / following Jesus! I believe that once EVERY, single person that becomes willing and does accept Christ has done so (with the only remaining ones being eternally resistant), THEN Jesus will return to set up His New Heaven / Earth eternal Kingdom.
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Ged (Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:47 pm)

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#9

Post by Ged » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:00 pm

Philip wrote:... a large, BELIEVING remnant will eventually embrace Jesus as Messiah, before Jesus comes back. But the idea of some, concerning the Jews - "If you're a Jew, you're IN!" - simply cannot be reconciled with Scripture.
Yes, because salvation is by faith, not race as it was before. Ephesians 2 says it all.
"You who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."
"Your name and renown
is the desire of our hearts."
(Isaiah 26:8)

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#10

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:00 pm

Ged wrote:
Yes, because salvation is by faith, not race as it was before. Ephesians 2 says it all.
Actually...

No. Salvation is by Grace, through faith. And, salvation has always been by Grace, through faith. There aren’t two gospels. Old Testament saints were saved by Grace through faith in the coming Messiah.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#11

Post by DBowling » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:35 pm

I absolutely agree with 98% of your post... but let me quibble slightly with the 2%...
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:00 pm
Salvation is by Grace, through faith. And, salvation has always been by Grace, through faith. There aren’t two gospels. Old Testament saints were saved by Grace through faith
Above is the part I agree 1000% with
in the coming Messiah.
This is my slight quibble...

Let's look at the classic example of Abraham in Genesis 15:6
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He credited it to him as righteousness.
According to Genesis 15:6, Abraham was made righteous through faith in YHWH (see Romans 4).
So the object of saving faith in the OT was God/YHWH.

And the object of saving faith in the NT is the same as it was in the OT.
The difference is that in the NT, God/YHWH took human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.
So the object of saving faith in the OT and NT are the same, YHWH/Jesus, who are the same one true God.

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#12

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:42 pm

DBowling wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:35 pm
I absolutely agree with 98% of your post... but let me quibble slightly with the 2%...
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:00 pm
Salvation is by Grace, through faith. And, salvation has always been by Grace, through faith. There aren’t two gospels. Old Testament saints were saved by Grace through faith
Above is the part I agree 1000% with
in the coming Messiah.
This is my slight quibble...

Let's look at the classic example of Abraham in Genesis 15:6
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He credited it to him as righteousness.
According to Genesis 15:6, Abraham was made righteous through faith in YHWH (see Romans 4).
So the object of saving faith in the OT was God/YHWH.

And the object of saving faith in the NT is the same as it was in the OT.
The difference is that in the NT, God/YHWH took human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.
So the object of saving faith in the OT and NT are the same, YHWH/Jesus, who are the same one true God.
I’m not sure where you’re disagreeing with me. You’d agree that the OT law and the sacrifices point forward to Jesus Christ, right?

And Christ’s death and resurrection made it possible for any who trust in him, to have eternal life, right?

After Christ, we look back at what he did. Before Christ came in the flesh, the OT saints looked forward to the promise of a coming savior.

It’s the same gospel. There wasn’t a different gospel for OT saints, correct?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#13

Post by DBowling » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:50 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:42 pm
DBowling wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:35 pm
I absolutely agree with 98% of your post... but let me quibble slightly with the 2%...
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:00 pm
Salvation is by Grace, through faith. And, salvation has always been by Grace, through faith. There aren’t two gospels. Old Testament saints were saved by Grace through faith
Above is the part I agree 1000% with
in the coming Messiah.
This is my slight quibble...

Let's look at the classic example of Abraham in Genesis 15:6
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He credited it to him as righteousness.
According to Genesis 15:6, Abraham was made righteous through faith in YHWH (see Romans 4).
So the object of saving faith in the OT was God/YHWH.

And the object of saving faith in the NT is the same as it was in the OT.
The difference is that in the NT, God/YHWH took human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.
So the object of saving faith in the OT and NT are the same, YHWH/Jesus, who are the same one true God.
I’m not sure where you’re disagreeing with me. You’d agree that the OT law and the sacrifices point forward to Jesus Christ, right?
Absolutely...
Paul tells us that the OT sacrificial system was a shadow of the substance that would come in Christ (Col 2:17)
And Christ’s death and resurrection made it possible for any who trust in him, to have eternal life, right?
Again we fully agree...
When Jesus died on the cross he paid the penalty for the sins of all humanity for all time, so that whoever put their faith and trust in Him (God/YHWH/Jesus) at any point in time, would have eternal life.
After Christ, we look back at what he did. Before Christ came in the flesh, the OT saints looked forward to the promise of a coming savior.
Yes... But...

The OT saints had only a shadow that pointed to a future Savior.
Looking back we now have a clear understanding of what YHWH/Jesus did to save us, but the OT saints did not have that same understanding of the nature and work of the future Savior.

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham did not put his faith in a Savior that would appear at some unknown time in the future.
In Genesis 15:6, Abraham put his faith in the YHWH who had revealed himself to him at that point in time.

That's the only distinction I was trying to make...
It’s the same gospel. There wasn’t a different gospel for OT saints, correct?
Again we agree...
OT saints were saved by grace through faith in YHWH
NT saints are saved by grace through faith in Jesus (who is YHWH)

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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#14

Post by RickD » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:06 am

DBowling wrote:
The OT saints had only a shadow that pointed to a future Savior.
Looking back we now have a clear understanding of what YHWH/Jesus did to save us, but the OT saints did not have that same understanding of the nature and work of the future Savior.
I agree. And I think this is important.
DBowling wrote:
In Genesis 15:6, Abraham did not put his faith in a Savior that would appear at some unknown time in the future.
In Genesis 15:6, Abraham put his faith in the YHWH who had revealed himself to him at that point in time.
I think Abram actually did put his faith in the coming Savior. He may not have fully understood, as you said above. To make my point, look at Galatians 3.


Galatians 3:16-19
16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
Abram was declared righteous because he believed God’s promise. And as Galatians shows, The seed referred to in God’s promise to Abraham, is Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: All Israel Will Be Saved

#15

Post by Philip » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:21 pm

Yes, the OT believers had faith in the very same God (which includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) - it's just that we now have a more complete understanding of the Persons and attributes of God. Of course, in comparison to our future understandings of God, what WE know NOW is likely to pale in comparison to our future knowledge of Him - and that will be a knowledge that will forever grow. My parents have both gone to be with the Lord - dad 19 years ago and mom 11 years. And I wonder all the time what they may know now that we don't.

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