The Olivet Discourse

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 122 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#31

Post by DBowling » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:33 am

Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:02 am
I assume you realise that your views are by far in the minority within the general Christian community? Not saying that that makes more right or more wrong, but is something to think about.
That is not a factually accurate statement.

The majority position of the global church for its 2000 year history is amillennialism.
And historical Christianity has acknowledged the link between the Great Tribulation and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD for 2000 years.
The pre-trib pre-mil position that I used to hold is actually the new kid on the block and was created in the 1800s.

And even though pre-mil pre-trib dispensationalism is the eschatology embraced by a majority of my particular tradition (Protestant Evangelical), it is still a minority position within the global Church today.

But for me what really matters is identifying an eschatology that is consistent with what Scripture actually teaches.
And when I realized that the time frames of pre-trib pre-mil eschatology directly contradicted the timeframes Jesus gives in Mat 24:34, that John gives in Rev 1:1-3, and that Daniel gives in Daniel 9, I was compelled to reject pre-trib pre-mil eschatology as unScriptural.

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4671
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 202 times
Been liked: 165 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#32

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:13 am

DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:57 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:53 pm
Can you explain when in AD66-70 The whole world rich and poor,free and bond recieved the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy and sell?And when people were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast,when did Nero go into the Jewish temple stop animal sacrificing and declare he is God?
I obviously do not accept all your questions at face value, because some of them misrepresent what Scripture actually claims.

However
The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Beast-Revelation ... 0996452516
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf

does deal with the Scriptures that you are misrepresenting in your questions.
The second link is a free online copy of the book, so you don't have to pay anything to read it.

Here are a couple of online videos where Kenneth Gentry goes into quite a bit of detail regarding his interpretation of Revelation.

This first video is a lecture by Kenneth Gentry where he digs into the context and text of Revelation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6kWLW_y4e4
The second is a Q and A where Kenneth Gentry addresses 14 key questions regarding his interpretation of Revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X36GZn5iMpU

Even though I don't agree 100% with everything Gentry says (unfortunately I have yet to find any author that I agree with 100% on anything), but Gentry does an excellent job of presenting the Scriptural evidence to support the premise that the Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation refers to the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Rome in 70 AD.

I really appreciate Kenneth Gentry's focus on what the Scriptural text actually says as opposed to a lot of the End Times fiction that is perpetuated these days under the guise of so-called prophetic interpretation of Scripture.

After you read the book or watch the videos I will be happy to discuss any specific questions you have about Gentry's position (including areas where I disagree with Gentry).
However, Gentry's Q and A video does deal with most of the typical objections that some people have to his position.

If something is interesting to me I will look into it eventhough I disagree with it.I know my question was kindof an off the cuff type question but it still is a question that will determine if he is legit. At first,I thought you were just focusing on a little bit of prophecy that most think happens in the last days or soon today yet once you included everything including the mark of the beast into his bible prophecy interpretation I doubt very seriously that he will be able to answer it adequately.Because there is no way you can include the mark of the beast and say it happened two thousand years ago. I have my doubts about this interpretation and view on bible prophecy but I might look into it.Thanks for providing the links. I myself disagree with most of the views of end-time bible prophecy out there as it seems you do but I'm not sure I'm willing to give all of it up. Because eventhough I have differing views on them the core understanding of the endtimes shines through with them. One example is people claiming Jesus is coming soon based on bible prophecy. I used to say this too,until I realized how many unfulfilled prophecies there still are that cannot happen until other prophecies are fulfilled thathave not been fulfilled yet so that we cannot say according to the signs that Jesus is coming soon. We can possibly say he could come at anytime but if we are truly looking at signs and all of the things prophecied we cannot and should not be saying Jesus is coming soon. Instead we should be explaining how until certian prophecies are fulfilled Jesus's coming cannot be soon and should be focusing on the prophecies that must be fulfilled before other prophecies can be fulfilled.

I also disagree with those who deny a rapture but for totally different reasons than why most believe in a rapture and defend it.As it will be worse for Christians during the tribulation than Jews and Christians will be hunted down and slaughtered in ways we have never seen before during the tribulation.There is no hunkering down in a bunker,etc and surviving the tribulation if you are a Christian here during the tribulation,etc. It will be open season on Christians and they will be slaughtered for not taking the mark of the beast.This is why I believe in a rapture because God has not appointed his bride to this kind of wrath and I see too many making out like there is no rapture and no real worries for Christian,really sugar-coating what the tribulation is going to be like,thinking there is no rapture,they can survive it and expecting to.These Christians I speak of being slautghtered in the tribulation are people who after the rapture wake up and realize they were left behind and they get saved but die for their faith in Jesus,while the real true bride that was ready was raptured already. This is based on Matthew 25 and the 5 wise virgins and 5 unwise virgins who had no oil in their lamps like the wise did. I've seen nobody be able to make a case for how Matthew 25 can be referring to the second coming of Jesus and so it must be referring to the rapture.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 122 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#33

Post by DBowling » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:20 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:13 am
I know my question was kindof an off the cuff type question but it still is a question that will determine if he is legit. At first,I thought you were just focusing on a little bit of prophecy that most think happens in the last days or soon to day yet once you included everything including the mark of the beast into his bible prophecy interpretation I doubt very seriously that he will be able to answer it adequately. Because there is no way you can include the mark of the beast and say it happened two thousand years ago. I have my doubts about this interpretation and view on bible prophecy
I believe your premise on when the Mark of the Beast could possibly take place is based on a flawed understanding of what certain symbolic imagery in John's vision means. If your interpretation of John's imagery is incorrect (and I believe it is) then the whole basis for your doubt vanishes.

What the Mark of the Beast in John's vision means is not be specifically spelled out in Scripture, but the timing for the Mark of the Beast is clearly and unambiguously identified by John in Revelation 1:1-3.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
So I can confidently say that Rev 1:1-3 directly contradicts any interpretation of the Mark of the Beast imagery that takes place 2000 years after the time of Christ.

Why do I think the Mark of the Beast took place soon after John had his vision on Patmos?
Because Revelation 1:1-3 explicitly tells me that it would take place soon after John had his vision on Patmos.
One example is people claiming Jesus is coming soon based on bible prophecy. I used to say this too,until I realized how many unfulfilled prophecies there still are that cannot happen until other prophecies are fulfilled thathave not been fulfilled yet so that we cannot say according to the signs that Jesus is coming soon. We can possibly say he could come at anytime but if we are truly looking at signs and all of the things prophecied we cannot and should not be saying Jesus is coming soon. Instead we should be explaining how until certian prophecies are fulfilled Jesus's coming cannot be soon and should be focusing on the prophecies that must be fulfilled before other prophecies can be fulfilled.
The fatal flaw in your argument is what Scripture says about the timing of prophecies that you claim have not been fulfilled.
I have already noted above how your understanding of the timing of the events of Revelation 6-19 is directly contradicted by Bevelation 1:1-3.

Your claims are also directly contradicted by Jesus.
Here is what Jesus tells us about the timing of the "Great Tribulation"
Matthew 24:34
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
And everywhere that Jesus uses the phrase "this generation" in the Gospels he is referring to his contemporary generation.

And then there are the 70 weeks (490 years) of Daniel 9:24-27
Anyone who claims that the Abomination that causes Desolation (Daniel 9:27) takes place 2000 years after the time of Christ is directly contradicting the 490 year timeframe that Daniel gives us in Daniel 9:24 for his prophecy.

So Jesus (Mat 24:34), John (Rev 1:1-3) and Daniel (Dan 9:24-27) all directly contradict your assertion that the Great Tribulation takes place over 2000 years after the time of Christ.
I've seen nobody be able to make a case for how Matthew 25 can be referring to the second coming of Jesus and so it must be referring to the rapture.
Well I haven't seen any Scriptural case made that Matthew 25 can be referring to anything other than the Second Coming of Jesus.

In 1 Thes 4:15-17 (the "Rapture" passage) Paul directly relates the second coming of Jesus (v 15) to the Resurrection of the Dead (v 16)
In 1 Cor 15 (the "Resurrection" passage) Paul also directly relates the second coming of Jesus (v 23) to the Resurrection of the Dead (v 22)

So there is no Scriptural difference between the Second Coming of Jesus and the "Rapture" (1 Thes 4:16-17). In 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 Paul is telling us the same thing... that The Resurrection of the Dead is directly associated with the Second Coming of Jesus.
And in Matthew 25 Jesus tells us that his Second Coming is also related to the Final Judgement (see also Rev 20:11-14).

User avatar
Stu
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 976
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:32 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 10 times
Been liked: 27 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#34

Post by Stu » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:28 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:13 am
DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:57 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:53 pm
Can you explain when in AD66-70 The whole world rich and poor,free and bond recieved the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy and sell?And when people were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast,when did Nero go into the Jewish temple stop animal sacrificing and declare he is God?
I obviously do not accept all your questions at face value, because some of them misrepresent what Scripture actually claims.

However
The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Beast-Revelation ... 0996452516
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf

does deal with the Scriptures that you are misrepresenting in your questions.
The second link is a free online copy of the book, so you don't have to pay anything to read it.

Here are a couple of online videos where Kenneth Gentry goes into quite a bit of detail regarding his interpretation of Revelation.

This first video is a lecture by Kenneth Gentry where he digs into the context and text of Revelation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6kWLW_y4e4
The second is a Q and A where Kenneth Gentry addresses 14 key questions regarding his interpretation of Revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X36GZn5iMpU

Even though I don't agree 100% with everything Gentry says (unfortunately I have yet to find any author that I agree with 100% on anything), but Gentry does an excellent job of presenting the Scriptural evidence to support the premise that the Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation refers to the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Rome in 70 AD.

I really appreciate Kenneth Gentry's focus on what the Scriptural text actually says as opposed to a lot of the End Times fiction that is perpetuated these days under the guise of so-called prophetic interpretation of Scripture.

After you read the book or watch the videos I will be happy to discuss any specific questions you have about Gentry's position (including areas where I disagree with Gentry).
However, Gentry's Q and A video does deal with most of the typical objections that some people have to his position.

If something is interesting to me I will look into it eventhough I disagree with it.I know my question was kindof an off the cuff type question but it still is a question that will determine if he is legit. At first,I thought you were just focusing on a little bit of prophecy that most think happens in the last days or soon today yet once you included everything including the mark of the beast into his bible prophecy interpretation I doubt very seriously that he will be able to answer it adequately.Because there is no way you can include the mark of the beast and say it happened two thousand years ago. I have my doubts about this interpretation and view on bible prophecy but I might look into it.Thanks for providing the links. I myself disagree with most of the views of end-time bible prophecy out there as it seems you do but I'm not sure I'm willing to give all of it up. Because eventhough I have differing views on them the core understanding of the endtimes shines through with them. One example is people claiming Jesus is coming soon based on bible prophecy. I used to say this too,until I realized how many unfulfilled prophecies there still are that cannot happen until other prophecies are fulfilled thathave not been fulfilled yet so that we cannot say according to the signs that Jesus is coming soon. We can possibly say he could come at anytime but if we are truly looking at signs and all of the things prophecied we cannot and should not be saying Jesus is coming soon. Instead we should be explaining how until certian prophecies are fulfilled Jesus's coming cannot be soon and should be focusing on the prophecies that must be fulfilled before other prophecies can be fulfilled.

I also disagree with those who deny a rapture but for totally different reasons than why most believe in a rapture and defend it.As it will be worse for Christians during the tribulation than Jews and Christians will be hunted down and slaughtered in ways we have never seen before during the tribulation.There is no hunkering down in a bunker,etc and surviving the tribulation if you are a Christian here during the tribulation,etc. It will be open season on Christians and they will be slaughtered for not taking the mark of the beast.This is why I believe in a rapture because God has not appointed his bride to this kind of wrath and I see too many making out like there is no rapture and no real worries for Christian,really sugar-coating what the tribulation is going to be like,thinking there is no rapture,they can survive it and expecting to.These Christians I speak of being slautghtered in the tribulation are people who after the rapture wake up and realize they were left behind and they get saved but die for their faith in Jesus,while the real true bride that was ready was raptured already. This is based on Matthew 25 and the 5 wise virgins and 5 unwise virgins who had no oil in their lamps like the wise did. I've seen nobody be able to make a case for how Matthew 25 can be referring to the second coming of Jesus and so it must be referring to the rapture.
Some of the apostles were martyred for their faith and they were God's chosen messengers and close to Jesus. What makes you think we will receive anything better?

We will suffer Satan's wrath, but will not suffer God's wrath (which will come after Satan's wrath). We will be raptured out before God's wrath. That's how I understand it.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 122 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#35

Post by DBowling » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:48 am

Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:28 am
We will be raptured out before God's wrath. That's how I understand it.
Do you have any Scripture to support that assertion?

User avatar
Stu
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 976
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:32 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 10 times
Been liked: 27 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#36

Post by Stu » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:52 am

DBowling wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:48 am
Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:28 am
We will be raptured out before God's wrath. That's how I understand it.
Do you have any Scripture to support that assertion?
There was this a video I watched on the rapture, a discussion between Steve Quayle and Pastor David Lankford, and that seemed pretty well on the money. I don't remember the scriptures he quoted though.

I think this is it:


Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 122 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#37

Post by DBowling » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:02 pm

Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:52 am
DBowling wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:48 am
Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:28 am
We will be raptured out before God's wrath. That's how I understand it.
Do you have any Scripture to support that assertion?
There was this a video I watched on the rapture, a discussion between Steve Quayle and Pastor David Lankford, and that seemed pretty well on the money. I don't remember the scriptures he quoted though.
Ok... you gave me a video and no Scripture, but I did watch your video all the way through.

There are some areas where Lankford was Scriptural and there were some areas where he was unScriptural.

Let's start with the parts where he was actually Scriptural.
- He correctly stated that Scripture teaches only ONE physical return of Jesus, and that is the Second Coming of Jesus.
- He correctly states that Scripture teaches that the Great Tribulation would last for 42 months.
- And he correctly refers to the Pre-Trib Rapture as the "False Doctrine of the Pre-Trib Rapture". So I am confused why you would use this video to defend your statement that "We will be raptured out before God's wrath" when he directly contradicts your statement.

Here is where Lankford directly contradicts Scripture.
- Lankford claims that the Great Tribulation is a future event, which (as I've noted a number of times) directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus (Matthew 24:34) and John (Rev 1:1-3)
- Lankford also incorrectly claims that The Return of Jesus takes place immediately after the Great Tribulation, but that is not what Jesus says in the Olivet Discourse.

So let's look at what Jesus actually says in the Olivet Discourse...
Mat 24:29-31
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Note that the coming of the Son of Man (verse 30) does not take place immediately after the Great Tribulation.
Jesus says that "the powers of the heavens will be shaken" (verse 29) immediately after the Great Tribulation.
So according to Jesus, the events of Mat 24:29 take place between the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming of Jesus.

Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse gives us some additional information...
Luke 21:24-27
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
So according to Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse Jesus associates the "times of the Gentiles" with the "powers of the heavens being shaken" that takes place between the Great Tribulation and the Second coming of Jesus.

So the sequence of events that Jesus gives in the Olivet Discourse is:
1. The Great Tribulation
2. The Times of the Gentiles
3. The Second Coming of Jesus

Lankford also correctly identified the event that starts the Great Tribulation
Matthew 24:15
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
So what does the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 say about the timing of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27)?
According to Daniel 9:24, 490 years were to pass between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the Abomination of Desolation. Daniel's prophecy also prophesies the first coming of the Messiah (Daniel 9:25).
So it is Scripturally impossible for the Great Tribulation to take place 2000 years after the time of Jesus, when the total time span of Daniel's prophecy is 490 years and includes both the first coming of the Messiah and the Abomination of Desolation.

And Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse provides additional information regarding what Matthew identifies as the Abomination of Desolation.
Luke 21:20
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
So putting this all together...
- According to Jesus, the Great Tribulation begins with the Abomination of Desolation
- Luke's Gospel equates the Abomination of Desolation with Jerusalem being surrounded by the Roman armies.
- Daniel's prophecy states that the Abomination of Desolation occurs 490 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem

All of which points to a Great Tribulation that lasted for the 42 months of the Roman siege from 68 AD to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.

That's what history tells us.
And that's what Jesus, John, and Daniel tell us in the pages of Scripture.

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4671
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 202 times
Been liked: 165 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#38

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:18 pm

Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:28 am
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:13 am
DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:57 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:53 pm
Can you explain when in AD66-70 The whole world rich and poor,free and bond recieved the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy and sell?And when people were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast,when did Nero go into the Jewish temple stop animal sacrificing and declare he is God?
I obviously do not accept all your questions at face value, because some of them misrepresent what Scripture actually claims.

However
The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Beast-Revelation ... 0996452516
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf

does deal with the Scriptures that you are misrepresenting in your questions.
The second link is a free online copy of the book, so you don't have to pay anything to read it.

Here are a couple of online videos where Kenneth Gentry goes into quite a bit of detail regarding his interpretation of Revelation.

This first video is a lecture by Kenneth Gentry where he digs into the context and text of Revelation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6kWLW_y4e4
The second is a Q and A where Kenneth Gentry addresses 14 key questions regarding his interpretation of Revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X36GZn5iMpU

Even though I don't agree 100% with everything Gentry says (unfortunately I have yet to find any author that I agree with 100% on anything), but Gentry does an excellent job of presenting the Scriptural evidence to support the premise that the Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation refers to the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Rome in 70 AD.

I really appreciate Kenneth Gentry's focus on what the Scriptural text actually says as opposed to a lot of the End Times fiction that is perpetuated these days under the guise of so-called prophetic interpretation of Scripture.

After you read the book or watch the videos I will be happy to discuss any specific questions you have about Gentry's position (including areas where I disagree with Gentry).
However, Gentry's Q and A video does deal with most of the typical objections that some people have to his position.

If something is interesting to me I will look into it eventhough I disagree with it.I know my question was kindof an off the cuff type question but it still is a question that will determine if he is legit. At first,I thought you were just focusing on a little bit of prophecy that most think happens in the last days or soon today yet once you included everything including the mark of the beast into his bible prophecy interpretation I doubt very seriously that he will be able to answer it adequately.Because there is no way you can include the mark of the beast and say it happened two thousand years ago. I have my doubts about this interpretation and view on bible prophecy but I might look into it.Thanks for providing the links. I myself disagree with most of the views of end-time bible prophecy out there as it seems you do but I'm not sure I'm willing to give all of it up. Because eventhough I have differing views on them the core understanding of the endtimes shines through with them. One example is people claiming Jesus is coming soon based on bible prophecy. I used to say this too,until I realized how many unfulfilled prophecies there still are that cannot happen until other prophecies are fulfilled thathave not been fulfilled yet so that we cannot say according to the signs that Jesus is coming soon. We can possibly say he could come at anytime but if we are truly looking at signs and all of the things prophecied we cannot and should not be saying Jesus is coming soon. Instead we should be explaining how until certian prophecies are fulfilled Jesus's coming cannot be soon and should be focusing on the prophecies that must be fulfilled before other prophecies can be fulfilled.

I also disagree with those who deny a rapture but for totally different reasons than why most believe in a rapture and defend it.As it will be worse for Christians during the tribulation than Jews and Christians will be hunted down and slaughtered in ways we have never seen before during the tribulation.There is no hunkering down in a bunker,etc and surviving the tribulation if you are a Christian here during the tribulation,etc. It will be open season on Christians and they will be slaughtered for not taking the mark of the beast.This is why I believe in a rapture because God has not appointed his bride to this kind of wrath and I see too many making out like there is no rapture and no real worries for Christian,really sugar-coating what the tribulation is going to be like,thinking there is no rapture,they can survive it and expecting to.These Christians I speak of being slautghtered in the tribulation are people who after the rapture wake up and realize they were left behind and they get saved but die for their faith in Jesus,while the real true bride that was ready was raptured already. This is based on Matthew 25 and the 5 wise virgins and 5 unwise virgins who had no oil in their lamps like the wise did. I've seen nobody be able to make a case for how Matthew 25 can be referring to the second coming of Jesus and so it must be referring to the rapture.
Some of the apostles were martyred for their faith and they were God's chosen messengers and close to Jesus. What makes you think we will receive anything better?

We will suffer Satan's wrath, but will not suffer God's wrath (which will come after Satan's wrath). We will be raptured out before God's wrath. That's how I understand it.

To answer your question concerning how the early apostels were martyred for their faith and what makes me think we will recieve anything better? It is because of how Christians will be hunted down and slaughtered during the tribulation compared to how the martyrs were persecuted as we have never seen this kind of slaughter. Also they actually got to see Jesus or knew somebody who did see Jesus they knew who he was and saw him rise from the dead,while we believed in Jesus and yet have not got to see Jesus yet.

Also there is a price to pay for those not ready when the rapture happens and they will be saved during the tribulation but will die in some of the most gruesome ways the church has never seen before. The bible tells us the anti-christ will wear out the saints.Michael the archangel stands up! because of what is happening during the tribulation to Christians.Jesus tells us to pray and be watchful so that we may be counted worthy to escape these things coming on the earth.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 122 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#39

Post by DBowling » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:34 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:18 pm
To answer your question concerning how the early apostels were martyred for their faith and what makes me think we will recieve anything better? It is because of how Christians will be hunted down and slaughtered during the tribulation compared to how the martyrs were persecuted as we have never seen this kind of slaughter. Also there is a price tio pay for those not ready when the rapture happens and they will be saved during the tribulation but will die in some of the most gruesome ways the church has never seen before. The bible tells us the anti-christ will wear out the saints.Michael the archangel stands up! because of what is happening during the tribulation to Christians.Jesus tells us to pray and be watchful so that we may be counted worthy to escape these things coming on the earth.
Another set of assertions with absolutely no Scriptural support.
I am supporting my position with specific Scriptures.
So far you are just making assertions that are unsupported by Scripture.

Let's look at a couple of specific Scriptures.
Matthew 24:34
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Who do you think Jesus is referring to with the phrase "this generation"?

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
According to John, what is the time frame for the events that he prophesies about in the book of Revelation?
(hint... I've underlined the answer for you)

This is what Scripture says.

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4671
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 202 times
Been liked: 165 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#40

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm

DBowling wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:02 pm
Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:52 am
DBowling wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:48 am
Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:28 am
We will be raptured out before God's wrath. That's how I understand it.
Do you have any Scripture to support that assertion?
There was this a video I watched on the rapture, a discussion between Steve Quayle and Pastor David Lankford, and that seemed pretty well on the money. I don't remember the scriptures he quoted though.
Ok... you gave me a video and no Scripture, but I did watch your video all the way through.

There are some areas where Lankford was Scriptural and there were some areas where he was unScriptural.

Let's start with the parts where he was actually Scriptural.
- He correctly stated that Scripture teaches only ONE physical return of Jesus, and that is the Second Coming of Jesus.
- He correctly states that Scripture teaches that the Great Tribulation would last for 42 months.
- And he correctly refers to the Pre-Trib Rapture as the "False Doctrine of the Pre-Trib Rapture". So I am confused why you would use this video to defend your statement that "We will be raptured out before God's wrath" when he directly contradicts your statement.

Here is where Lankford directly contradicts Scripture.
- Lankford claims that the Great Tribulation is a future event, which (as I've noted a number of times) directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus (Matthew 24:34) and John (Rev 1:1-3)
- Lankford also incorrectly claims that The Return of Jesus takes place immediately after the Great Tribulation, but that is not what Jesus says in the Olivet Discourse.

So let's look at what Jesus actually says in the Olivet Discourse...
Mat 24:29-31
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Note that the coming of the Son of Man (verse 30) does not take place immediately after the Great Tribulation.
Jesus says that "the powers of the heavens will be shaken" (verse 29) immediately after the Great Tribulation.
So according to Jesus, the events of Mat 24:29 take place between the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming of Jesus.

Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse gives us some additional information...
Luke 21:24-27
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
So according to Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse Jesus associates the "times of the Gentiles" with the "powers of the heavens being shaken" that takes place between the Great Tribulation and the Second coming of Jesus.

So the sequence of events that Jesus gives in the Olivet Discourse is:
1. The Great Tribulation
2. The Times of the Gentiles
3. The Second Coming of Jesus

Lankford also correctly identified the event that starts the Great Tribulation
Matthew 24:15
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
So what does the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 say about the timing of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27)?
According to Daniel 9:24, 490 years were to pass between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the Abomination of Desolation. Daniel's prophecy also prophesies the first coming of the Messiah (Daniel 9:25).
So it is Scripturally impossible for the Great Tribulation to take place 2000 years after the time of Jesus, when the total time span of Daniel's prophecy is 490 years and includes both the first coming of the Messiah and the Abomination of Desolation.

And Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse provides additional information regarding what Matthew identifies as the Abomination of Desolation.
Luke 21:20
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
So putting this all together...
- According to Jesus, the Great Tribulation begins with the Abomination of Desolation
- Luke's Gospel equates the Abomination of Desolation with Jerusalem being surrounded by the Roman armies.
- Daniel's prophecy states that the Abomination of Desolation occurs 490 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem

All of which points to a Great Tribulation that lasted for the 42 months of the Roman siege from 68 AD to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.

That's what history tells us.
And that's what Jesus, John, and Daniel tell us in the pages of Scripture.

That is kinda funny because if you read the scriptures you gave it backs me up about Christisns being slaughtered during the tribulation.This is why their hearts are failing them seeing the things that are coming on the earth. Re-read the description of the great tribulation in Luke,Matthew notice they will fall by the agde of the sword.Also until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled so this effects gentiles and not jews.Like i said it will be worse for Christians during the tribulation than jews. Yet most bible prophecy teachers totally sugar coat the great tribulation like they can survive it and are willing to because they don't believe in a rapture.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 122 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#41

Post by DBowling » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:19 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm
That is kinda funny because if you read the scriptures you gave it backs me up about Christisns being slaughtered during the tribulation.This is why their hearts are failing them seeing the things that are coming on the earth.
Scripture teaches that:
- Christians would be slaughtered during the Great Tribulation
- Jews would be slaughtered during the Great Tribulation
- The Temple would be destroyed during the Great Tribulation

And guess what...
- Christians were slaughtered during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
- Jews were slaughtered during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
- The Temple was destroyed during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
Just like Jesus and John prophesied


Now back to the questions that I asked you earlier

Matthew 24:34
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Who do you think Jesus is referring to with the phrase "this generation"?

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
According to John, what is the time frame for the events that he prophesies about in the book of Revelation?
(hint... I've underlined the answer for you)

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4671
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 202 times
Been liked: 165 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#42

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:43 pm

DBowling wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:19 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm
That is kinda funny because if you read the scriptures you gave it backs me up about Christisns being slaughtered during the tribulation.This is why their hearts are failing them seeing the things that are coming on the earth.
Scripture teaches that:
- Christians would be slaughtered during the Great Tribulation
- Jews would be slaughtered during the Great Tribulation
- The Temple would be destroyed during the Great Tribulation

And guess what...
- Christians were slaughtered during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
- Jews were slaughtered during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
- The Temple was destroyed during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
Just like Jesus and John prophesied


Now back to the questions that I asked you earlier

Matthew 24:34
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Who do you think Jesus is referring to with the phrase "this generation"?

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
According to John, what is the time frame for the events that he prophesies about in the book of Revelation?
(hint... I've underlined the answer for you)

First off you have yet to answer my question about how you can say the mark of the beast that effects the whole world rich and poor free and bond and unless you take the mark of the beast you cannot buy or sell and will be hunted down and slaughtered too as I have shown happened in 66 - 70 AD. But.I'll answer your question Jesus gives signs that we are to watch for and then says the generation that sees these things will not pass away until these things be fulfilled and you are overlooking these signs making it seem like Jesus was talking about soon in his day. So you are taking Jesus out of context and to prove this post the scriptures before it says this generation will not pass until all these things be fulfilled and notice the signs we are to watch for to know we are the generation that will see these things be fulfilled.

Also it is possible John did think it was soon but we now know he was wrong but 2000 years is not long compared to God's timing and how he is eternal.So can we really say John thought it was soon in his day?

Now explain breifly how the mark of the beast happened to effect the whole world rich and poor and when they recieved the mark of the beast to be able to buy and sell.

I will say this also I've noticed about you is when it comes to other interpretations you won't put scriptures together like I do to understand it, like when it refers to "sons of God" and who they are,yet when it comes to prophecy you suddenly put scriptures together that seem to go together,but that is for another discussion.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 20456
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 185 times
Been liked: 1013 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#43

Post by RickD » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:27 pm

ACB,

Where does the Bible mention the entire world, all the inhabitants of the earth, with regards to the beast?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 122 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#44

Post by DBowling » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:06 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:43 pm
DBowling wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:19 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm
That is kinda funny because if you read the scriptures you gave it backs me up about Christisns being slaughtered during the tribulation.This is why their hearts are failing them seeing the things that are coming on the earth.
Scripture teaches that:
- Christians would be slaughtered during the Great Tribulation
- Jews would be slaughtered during the Great Tribulation
- The Temple would be destroyed during the Great Tribulation

And guess what...
- Christians were slaughtered during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
- Jews were slaughtered during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
- The Temple was destroyed during the Great Tribulation of 68 AD - 70 AD
Just like Jesus and John prophesied


Now back to the questions that I asked you earlier

Matthew 24:34
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Who do you think Jesus is referring to with the phrase "this generation"?

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
According to John, what is the time frame for the events that he prophesies about in the book of Revelation?
(hint... I've underlined the answer for you)
First off you have yet to answer my question about how you can say the mark of the beast that effects the whole world rich and poor free and bond and unless you take the mark of the beast you cannot buy or sell and will be hunted down and slaughtered too as I have shown happened in 66 - 70 AD.
There are two different issues here...
You are focused on the meaning of symbolic imagery that is part of a prophetic vision.
I am focused on a clear and unambiguous statement by John about the timing of the fulfillment of his prophecy.

Now to address your question...
At the time of Nero Caesar (whose name in Hebrew adds up to 666). Emperor worship was part of the culture of the Roman 'world'. And displays of devotion to the 'divine' Caesar were incorporated into every day commerce. So a Christian who would refuse to offer incense to the 'divine' Caesar would be limited in the types of commerce that they could take part in.
The "mark of the beast" in John's vision refers to those who submit themselves to devotion to the 'divine' Caesar.
The "mark of the Lamb" in John's vision refers to those who submit themselves to devotion to Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.
I'll answer your question Jesus gives signs that we are to watch for and then says the generation that sees these things will not pass away until these things be fulfilled and you are overlooking these signs making it seem like Jesus was talking about soon in his day. So you are taking Jesus out of context and to prove this post the scriptures before it says this generation will not pass until all these things be fulfilled and notice the signs we are to watch for to know we are the generation that will see these things be fulfilled.
It's pretty easy to demonstrate that you are simply wrong here...

Earlier that very same day, Jesus uses the same phrase "this generation" in Matthew 23:36.
Who do you think Jesus is referring to with the phrase "this generation" in Matthew 23:36?

Jesus also uses the phrase "this generation" in Matthew 11:16.
Who do you think Jesus is referring to with the phrase "this generation" in Matthew 11:16?

In Matthew 12:38-45 Jesus uses the phrase "this generation" a number of times.
Who do you think Jesus is referring to with the phrase "this generation" in Matthew 12:38-45?

In Luke 11:50-51 Jesus again uses the phrase "this generation".
Who do you think Jesus is referring to with the phrase "this generation" in Luke 11:50-51?

And there are more examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation" in the Gospels, but I think these examples make the point obvious.
Every time without exception that Jesus uses the phrase "this generation", he is referring exclusively to contemporary Jews of his own time period.

So Scripture directly contradicts your assertion that Jesus uses the term "this generation" to refer to a generation over 2000 years in the future.
Also it is possible John did think it was soon but we now know he was wrong but 2000 years is not long compared to God's timing and how he is eternal.So can we really say John thought it was soon in his day?
So you are claiming that John was wrong when he said that his prophecy "must take place soon" and "for the time is near" in Rev 1:1-3?
I will say this also I've noticed about you is when it comes to other interpretations you won't put scriptures together like I do to understand it, like when it refers to "sons of God" and who they are,yet when it comes to prophecy you suddenly put scriptures together that seem to go together,but that is for another discussion.
:lol:
I'll agree with you there.
We have very different approaches regarding accurate interpretations of Scripture!

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 122 times

Re: The Olivet Discourse

#45

Post by DBowling » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:43 am

I just realized that in one of my posts yesterday I mistakenly gave 68 AD - 70 AD as dates for the Great Tribulation.
My original post had the correct dates, 66 AD - 70 AD, which represents the time frame for the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by Rome.

Post Reply