The Olivet Discourse

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
DBowling
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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#16

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:00 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:48 am
If they believed that, why not say it?
I'm not quite following you...

I think Scripture does identify what the phrase "last days" is referring to.
Going back to the Olivet Discourse, the Apostles were living in and writing during the last days before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 21:12-20).
And Hebrews 8:7-13 tells us that the Apostles were living in and writing during the last days of the Old Covenant era.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#17

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:10 am

Sure, but what I mean is why didn't they make clear that they were referring to the last days as the last days of the old covenant and not the last days before judgment ?

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#18

Post by Stu » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:11 am

DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:49 am
I still don't see you referencing any Scriptures that mention the "Antichrist"
Stu wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:06 am
Are you saying that the mark of the beast has already been and passed and that a period of time has past wherein no man could buy or sell without it?
Yes...
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Beast-Revelation ... 0996452516
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf
And that you would not go to heaven if you took the mark?
Whether or not a person goes to heaven has nothing to do with any physical mark.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Also, is the person who is associated with the number of the beast, 666, already been and come?
Yes...
See Chapter 3 - The Number of the Beast
from The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
What?! I don't have the time to address everything but if you take the mark of the beast, there is no heaven for you...

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
(Revelation 14:9-11)
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#19

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:27 am

Stu wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:11 am
DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:49 am
I still don't see you referencing any Scriptures that mention the "Antichrist"
Stu wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:06 am
Are you saying that the mark of the beast has already been and passed and that a period of time has past wherein no man could buy or sell without it?
Yes...
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Beast-Revelation ... 0996452516
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf
And that you would not go to heaven if you took the mark?
Whether or not a person goes to heaven has nothing to do with any physical mark.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Also, is the person who is associated with the number of the beast, 666, already been and come?
Yes...
See Chapter 3 - The Number of the Beast
from The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
What?! I don't have the time to address everything but if you take the mark of the beast, there is no heaven for you...
I agree...

In John's vision
Those who go to heaven are those who are sealed with the name of the Lamb and the Father on their foreheads.

And those who have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ are those who are sealed with the name of the Lamb and the Father on their foreheads in John's vision.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#20

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:37 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:10 am
Sure, but what I mean is why didn't they make clear that they were referring to the last days as the last days of the old covenant and not the last days before judgment ?
I would say that the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem was a huge judgement on Israel.

You are presuming (I think) that "last days" when used by the Apostles meant the last days before the "end of the world" and the "Final Judgement".
But the Apostles don't say that.

The Apostles say they are living in the "last days"
And letting Scripture interpret Scripture, I think Scripture (Hebrews 8:7-13 and Luke 21:12-20) do tell us that the Apostles were living in the last days before God's judgement on Jerusalem and the last days of the Old Covenant.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#21

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:44 am

I tend to agree with you for various reasons BUT the argument that sometimes presents itself is that, typically, when second temple Jews ( not to mention OT prophets) spoke of the LAST DAYS it was NOT about the end of the old covenant.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#22

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:05 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:44 am
I tend to agree with you for various reasons BUT the argument that sometimes presents itself is that, typically, when second temple Jews ( not to mention OT prophets) spoke of the LAST DAYS it was NOT about the end of the old covenant.
Back to the Olivet discourse again...
In Matthew 24:3, when Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple the disciples jumped to the conclusion that the Destruction of the Temple also implied the "end of the age" and "the coming of Jesus".

But throughout the Olivet Discourse Jesus deliberately distinguishes between events that the disciples conflated.
According to Jesus the destruction of the Temple was not "the end", rather it was the beginning of birth pangs.
According to Jesus an era known as the "times of the Gentiles" would take place between "The Great Tribulation" and the Son of Man coming on the clouds.
According to Jesus the destruction of the Temple and the Great Tribulation would occur within the time frame of his contemporary generation.
While the coming of the Son of Man would not occur for a "long time" at a time that was only known to the Father.

So part of Jesus' Olivet Discourse involves Jesus' distinguishing between events that his second Temple disciples had conflated.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#23

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 am

But, doesn't Paul seem to believe that Jesus would come back in his lifetime?

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#24

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:46 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 am
But, doesn't Paul seem to believe that Jesus would come back in his lifetime?
I think Paul clearly thought that Jesus "could" come back in his lifetime.
But I don't think Paul ever teaches that Jesus "would" come back in his lifetime.

And that is consistent with what Jesus teaches in the Olivet Discourse.
In Mat 24:42 Jesus tells us...
"be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming."
and in verse 44
"you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will."

Jesus tells us that we do not know when he will return, so we we should always be ready for his return.

That is the Scriptural principle of the immanency of Christ's return.
We don't know when Christ will return, but it could be today. So we need to always be prepared for his return.

Paul never teaches that Jesus "would" return in his lifetime, but I think he probably believed that Jesus "could" return in his lifetime.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#25

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:53 pm

DBowling wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:39 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:49 pm
So you no longer believe the mark of the beast in the end times is part of the great tribulation prior to Christ's return and that there are really no prophecies or signs for us to look for to know approximately when the tribulation is here,the mark of the beast and when the coming of Christ will be?
Let me try to answer your questions one at a time...
1. Yes, I believe that the beast and the mark of the beast was part of the Great Tribulation.
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Beast-Revelation ... 0996452516
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf
2. Yes, I believe that the Great Tribulation of AD 66-70 took place prior to Christ's future return.
3. Yes, I believe that there were many signs that allowed people in AD 66-70 to know that the Great Tribulation was in fact taking place... as prophesied by Jesus, John, and even Daniel.
4. As I noted in my comments on the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives specific signs and a time frame for the Great Tribulation. However Jesus says that his return would be sudden at some long time in the future, and no one knows when it would occur except the Father. So based on the explicit statements of Jesus I don't think we can know the timing (either precisely or approximately) of his return.
If so? It seems to me that you're focusing on just one part of the bible concerning the end-times while ignoring what prophets like Daniel and John in the Book of Revelation describe,as well as the many other prophets too.
Actually Daniel and Revelation contributed significantly to my realization that pre-trib pre-mil eschatology is contradicted by not only Jesus, but John and Daniel as well.
There is no amounted of tortured math that can get the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 to point to a 'Great Tribulation' that takes place 2000 years after the time of Christ. To do that, the margin of error in Daniel's prophecy has to exceed the complete duration of the 70 weeks itself.
In regards to Revelation, I believe John gives enough indicators in his prophecy to identify the Beast of Revelation with a fair level of confidence.
(see Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry).

So from my perspective the prophecies of Daniel and John are consistent with what Jesus teaches in the Olivet Discourse. And all three come into direct conflict with pre-trib pre mil eschatology.
It seems to me you're giving up on end-times bible prophecy and so you want to remove prophecies that are to be fulfilled just as many other prophecies were fulfilled to imply that we don't have any future prophecies to look for being fulfilled.
Based on what Jesus teaches, he could return at any time now. To me that's pretty exciting!
However Jesus says we don't know when he will return.
It could be tomorrow. It could be in another 2000 years. We just don't know.
That is why Jesus tells us to always remain ready for his return.

There is a lot of really exciting stuff still to come.
The return of Jesus.
The resurrection of the dead.
The final judgement.
The new heaven/new earth.

Just because Jesus tells us that we don't know when these things will happen, that doesn't somehow make them boring.

Can you explain when in AD66-70 The whole world rich and poor,free and bond recieved the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy and sell?And when people were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast,when did Nero go into the Jewish temple stop animal sacrificing and declare he is God?
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#26

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:53 pm

DBowling wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:39 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:49 pm
So you no longer believe the mark of the beast in the end times is part of the great tribulation prior to Christ's return and that there are really no prophecies or signs for us to look for to know approximately when the tribulation is here,the mark of the beast and when the coming of Christ will be?
Let me try to answer your questions one at a time...
1. Yes, I believe that the beast and the mark of the beast was part of the Great Tribulation.
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Beast-Revelation ... 0996452516
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf
2. Yes, I believe that the Great Tribulation of AD 66-70 took place prior to Christ's future return.
3. Yes, I believe that there were many signs that allowed people in AD 66-70 to know that the Great Tribulation was in fact taking place... as prophesied by Jesus, John, and even Daniel.
4. As I noted in my comments on the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives specific signs and a time frame for the Great Tribulation. However Jesus says that his return would be sudden at some long time in the future, and no one knows when it would occur except the Father. So based on the explicit statements of Jesus I don't think we can know the timing (either precisely or approximately) of his return.
If so? It seems to me that you're focusing on just one part of the bible concerning the end-times while ignoring what prophets like Daniel and John in the Book of Revelation describe,as well as the many other prophets too.
Actually Daniel and Revelation contributed significantly to my realization that pre-trib pre-mil eschatology is contradicted by not only Jesus, but John and Daniel as well.
There is no amounted of tortured math that can get the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 to point to a 'Great Tribulation' that takes place 2000 years after the time of Christ. To do that, the margin of error in Daniel's prophecy has to exceed the complete duration of the 70 weeks itself.
In regards to Revelation, I believe John gives enough indicators in his prophecy to identify the Beast of Revelation with a fair level of confidence.
(see Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry).

So from my perspective the prophecies of Daniel and John are consistent with what Jesus teaches in the Olivet Discourse. And all three come into direct conflict with pre-trib pre mil eschatology.
It seems to me you're giving up on end-times bible prophecy and so you want to remove prophecies that are to be fulfilled just as many other prophecies were fulfilled to imply that we don't have any future prophecies to look for being fulfilled.
Based on what Jesus teaches, he could return at any time now. To me that's pretty exciting!
However Jesus says we don't know when he will return.
It could be tomorrow. It could be in another 2000 years. We just don't know.
That is why Jesus tells us to always remain ready for his return.

There is a lot of really exciting stuff still to come.
The return of Jesus.
The resurrection of the dead.
The final judgement.
The new heaven/new earth.

Just because Jesus tells us that we don't know when these things will happen, that doesn't somehow make them boring.

Can you explain when in AD66-70 The whole world rich and poor,free and bond recieved the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy and sell?And when people were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast,when did Nero go into the Jewish temple stop animal sacrificing and declare he is God? Because there is no way just this alone was fulfilled in AD66-70 and only today with the technology we have could it happen in the future. Did you know that you are tracked everywhere you go if you have your cell phone on you and they can listen to you anytime they want to,can even video you through your phone? They can even watch you through your TV and appliances and can listen to you too.There is nowhere you can go where they cannot know where you are and can track you. Only today could the mark of the beast happen to effect the whole world. there is noway it could have happened 2000 years ago.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#27

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:57 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:53 pm
Can you explain when in AD66-70 The whole world rich and poor,free and bond recieved the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy and sell?And when people were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast,when did Nero go into the Jewish temple stop animal sacrificing and declare he is God?
I obviously do not accept all your questions at face value, because some of them misrepresent what Scripture actually claims.

However
The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Beast-Revelation ... 0996452516
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf

does deal with the Scriptures that you are misrepresenting in your questions.
The second link is a free online copy of the book, so you don't have to pay anything to read it.

Here are a couple of online videos where Kenneth Gentry goes into quite a bit of detail regarding his interpretation of Revelation.

This first video is a lecture by Kenneth Gentry where he digs into the context and text of Revelation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6kWLW_y4e4
The second is a Q and A where Kenneth Gentry addresses 14 key questions regarding his interpretation of Revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X36GZn5iMpU

Even though I don't agree 100% with everything Gentry says (unfortunately I have yet to find any author that I agree with 100% on anything), but Gentry does an excellent job of presenting the Scriptural evidence to support the premise that the Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation refers to the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Rome in 70 AD.

I really appreciate Kenneth Gentry's focus on what the Scriptural text actually says as opposed to a lot of the End Times fiction that is perpetuated these days under the guise of so-called prophetic interpretation of Scripture.

After you read the book or watch the videos I will be happy to discuss any specific questions you have about Gentry's position (including areas where I disagree with Gentry).
However, Gentry's Q and A video does deal with most of the typical objections that some people have to his position.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#28

Post by Stu » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:14 am

Can't you just put into your own words what the book says. Can't you just answer abe's question. Do we really have to read the whole book just to have a few questions answered...
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#29

Post by DBowling » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:23 am

Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:14 am
Can't you just put into your own words what the book says. Can't you just answer abe's question. Do we really have to read the whole book just to have a few questions answered...
Short answer...
I can answer specific questions
I have already answered specific questions in this thread (including some of yours BTW)
And I am willing to answer further specific questions.

I posted the videos to give ACB another resource to get a general overview if he did not feel like reading the book.
If people are interested in a general overview it really is a time saver to look at the book and/or videos.

There can be legitimate questions regarding the meaning of the symbolism in John's vision, and I make no claim to have identified what all the symbolic language in Revelation means.
However, John begins Revelation with an explicit and unambiguous statement regarding the general time frame of his prophecy.

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
John explicitly states that The Great Tribulation of Revelation "must soon take place" "for the time is near".
Jesus explicitly states that The Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse would occur within the lifetimes of his contemporary generation (Mat 24:34).

So I do not need to have complete understanding of all the symbolic language of John's vision to understand the rough timing of events that Jesus and John use phrases like "this generation will not pass", "things which must soon take place", and "for the time is near" to describe.

This allows me to immediately dismiss as fundamentally unScriptural any claim that the Great Tribulation of The Olivet Discourse and Revelation takes place over 2000 years after the time of Christ.

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Re: The Olivet Discourse

#30

Post by Stu » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:02 am

I assume you realise that your views are by far in the minority within the general Christian community? Not saying that that makes more right or more wrong, but is something to think about.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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