Seventy weeks Daniel 9

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
Davy
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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#16

Post by Davy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:39 am

Philip wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:12 am
What are the 69 weeks referring to - what are the possibilities? IS it clear?

Fascinating article:

[url]https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs ... McFall.pdf[/url

From the author, Dr. Leslie McFall's bio:

Lecturer in Hebrew and Old Testament before becoming a full-time researcher in Biblical Studies. Former Research Fellow at Tyndale House Library (Cambridge, England)

MAIN INTERESTS: Old and New Testament chronology (incl. LXX); chronology of Jesus’ ministry; new approach to a Harmony of the four Gospels; the Majority (Byzantine) Text as the Autograph Text of the New Testament; divorce; headship; and solving apparent contradictions in the Bible where they are a stumbling block to faith in the trustworthiness of Scripture.

The bottom line of all my research and teaching is to restore faith in the WORD OF GOD as a means to restoring faith in the GOD OF THE WORD
Pretty much impossible, since the Daniel 9 prophecy of 70 weeks (if followed as written) gives a specific period of years long after... Nehemiah's day. For example, even with beginning the count at 536 B.C., instead of 454 B.C. per Ussher's 17th century work, it's still going to be 483 years later (i.e., 49 years + 434 years). That date will still place it closer to the time of Jesus of Nazareth's day than Nehemiah's.

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#17

Post by Philip » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:57 am

Point is, when we try to perfect a timeline and specifics to prophecies of the end times, we don't have key variables that these turn on. It will, however, become much clearer to Scriptural-savvy Christians as those days are upon us. It sells books, and some esteemed Christians scholars and theologians have lots of disagreements over them. It's a focus I had when I was 20 or so (a while back, LOL).

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#18

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:37 am

Davy wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:53 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:18 am
Ah symbolism...
To ignore some parts and then to see others as literal...
You must be talking about previous chapters in the Book of Daniel, like the beast statue and horns, etc., because with the 70 weeks prophecy it is all literal, even giving specific times.
Why 70?

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#19

Post by Davy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:44 am

Philip wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:57 am
Point is, when we try to perfect a timeline and specifics to prophecies of the end times, we don't have key variables that these turn on. It will, however, become much clearer to Scriptural-savvy Christians as those days are upon us. It sells books, and some esteemed Christians scholars and theologians have lots of disagreements over them. It's a focus I had when I was 20 or so (a while back, LOL).
It's the so-called "esteemed" scholars and theologians that are out to sell books. If they cannot grasp something as easy as understanding the 3 periods given in the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy, and how it's impossible to push the 3rd period (final "one week") into the 2nd period, then why should any Bible-believing Christian even listen to those esteemed scholars? Man is who put the label of scholar on them, not God.

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#20

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm

Davy, Daniel is only one component of end times time table projections in which widely respected, evangelical, conservative, inerrancy believing Bible scholars and theologians have a range of views with considerable disagreement. If you would like to get a sampling of the problems and issues of things we can't yet know for certain - realizing that to know specifics there are key variables that remain unclear to us - I suggest you begin to read through this post:

https://discussions.godandscience.org/ ... p?t=42557

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#21

Post by Davy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:27 pm

Philip wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm
Davy, Daniel is only one component of end times time table projections in which widely respected, evangelical, conservative, inerrancy believing Bible scholars and theologians have a range of views with considerable disagreement. If you would like to get a sampling of the problems and issues of things we can't yet know for certain - realizing that to know specifics there are key variables that remain unclear to us - I suggest you begin to read through this post:

https://discussions.godandscience.org/ ... p?t=42557
You shouldn't entertain the idea that I haven't heard their arguments before. There are not many ways in which the Daniel prophecy aligns with the rest of our Lord's prophecies for the end of this world. There is only one right way, and the rest are mere speculations.

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#22

Post by Philip » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:04 am

Davy: There are not many ways in which the Daniel prophecy aligns with the rest of our Lord's prophecies for the end of this world. There is only one right way, and the rest are mere speculations.
And I agree that there is only one true way that those last day events will come to pass. And I DO believe the Scriptures about them are true. But the problem is, there are key variables that are either currently missing or ones that are still vague to us, and things we cannot currently, perfectly know - and yet THOSE things are crucial to getting the scenario correct. And so, presently, NO one has this perfectly figured out, as they are ALL speculating - and that's all they can do until things become clearer. As every, single scenario out there requires specifics before they can be valid - and those specifics have not yet arrived or been given to us. As when they DO become far clearer, then Biblically knowledgeable Christians will recognize it. It is foolish to get obsessed with End Times projections, OTHER THAN, to know the Scriptures, realize that the world is progressing in dangerous and evil ways, and that Jesus WILL come again, just as He promised, as in the end, He will end this age's evil and usher in the eternal heaven / earth to come. That should be enough for everyone to know. Jesus said no one knows the timing.

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#23

Post by Davy » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:18 pm

Philip wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:04 am

And I agree that there is only one true way that those last day events will come to pass. And I DO believe the Scriptures about them are true. But the problem is, there are key variables that are either currently missing or ones that are still vague to us, and things we cannot currently, perfectly know - and yet THOSE things are crucial to getting the scenario correct. And so, presently, NO one has this perfectly figured out, as they are ALL speculating - and that's all they can do until things become clearer. As every, single scenario out there requires specifics before they can be valid - and those specifics have not yet arrived or been given to us. As when they DO become far clearer, then Biblically knowledgeable Christians will recognize it. It is foolish to get obsessed with End Times projections, OTHER THAN, to know the Scriptures, realize that the world is progressing in dangerous and evil ways, and that Jesus WILL come again, just as He promised, as in the end, He will end this age's evil and usher in the eternal heaven / earth to come. That should be enough for everyone to know. Jesus said no one knows the timing.
I disagree. That philosophy assumes no one can know the true meaning of a prophecy until after... it happens. That idea is not Biblical...

Isa 42:9
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
KJV

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#24

Post by RickD » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:10 pm

Davy wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:18 pm
Philip wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:04 am

And I agree that there is only one true way that those last day events will come to pass. And I DO believe the Scriptures about them are true. But the problem is, there are key variables that are either currently missing or ones that are still vague to us, and things we cannot currently, perfectly know - and yet THOSE things are crucial to getting the scenario correct. And so, presently, NO one has this perfectly figured out, as they are ALL speculating - and that's all they can do until things become clearer. As every, single scenario out there requires specifics before they can be valid - and those specifics have not yet arrived or been given to us. As when they DO become far clearer, then Biblically knowledgeable Christians will recognize it. It is foolish to get obsessed with End Times projections, OTHER THAN, to know the Scriptures, realize that the world is progressing in dangerous and evil ways, and that Jesus WILL come again, just as He promised, as in the end, He will end this age's evil and usher in the eternal heaven / earth to come. That should be enough for everyone to know. Jesus said no one knows the timing.
I disagree. That philosophy assumes no one can know the true meaning of a prophecy until after... it happens. That idea is not Biblical...

Isa 42:9
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
KJV
Whenever someone is going through difficult times, do you quote Jeremiah 29:11, and misapply that verse as well?

You can't just pull verses out of context, and misapply them to whomever you want.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

#Ihavereallybadgas

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#25

Post by Davy » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:03 am

RickD wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:10 pm

Whenever someone is going through difficult times, do you quote Jeremiah 29:11, and misapply that verse as well?

You can't just pull verses out of context, and misapply them to whomever you want.
You've got to be kidding. I didn't pull Isaiah 42:9 out of a hat. It's given in a chapter that is declaring Christ's coming (1st coming, which was still future in Isaiah's day). Who that knows anything about God's Word would deny that is about God giving us a prophecy 'before'... it comes to pass. How even did the three wise men know where to find baby Jesus at Bethlehem? It was because God in His Word had already prophesied it before it happened. And that was my point, His prophecies are... meant to be understood, even before they come to pass, even though it is not given for everyone to understand. So I definitely did not take that verse out of context as you imply.

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#26

Post by Philip » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:49 pm

If the prophesies were expected to be perfectly understood when first given, isn't it a bit strange that Jesus' disciples, life-long Jews who had studied the Scriptures since childhood, who journeyed with Christ across occupied Israel doing all manner of miracles, heard him stress what he was here to do, etc - and they STILL didn't get it! Not to mention that the prophesies built upon each other. And not until they saw the risen Christ did His followers start to really understand. The people of Jesus' time had a totally wrong understanding of what the prophesied Messiah would be like and what he would come to do - as they all misunderstood the prophesies concerning His true purposes - or the extent of their impact beyond the Jews. Even after the Resurrection, upon the salvation of the Roman Centurion Cornelius, did Peter even grasp that Jesus came to also save Gentiles. The Jews just didn't see this coming - despite the prophesies about this.

In Luke 24, we see this gap between what the prophesies actually meant and how the Old Testament knowledgeable Jews just after the Resurrection still were clueless - in Jesus appearance to the men on the road to Emmaus - they said to Jesus:

"21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”

If the prophesies were so clearly understandable to people beforehand, how come no one seemed to get it? And so Jesus painstakingly explained it to them:

"25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."

Even before He went to the Cross, in Luke 16, Jesus tried to tell His disciples what He was here to do, but they just would not believe it. They had supposed a political Savior that was to free Israel from the grip of the Romans, would restore Israel to greatness and thus heroically decimate her gentile oppressors. With this lack of understanding concerning the prophecies they all knew by heart, is it surprising that upon being told the specifics of His mission to die, Peter reacted as He did?

"21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! 5 This shall never happen to you.” 23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance 6 to me."

No, the many prophesies about Jesus coming and true mission were not accurately understood and recognized, even by Jesus' closest friends! It's because the prophesies weren't truly understood until AFTER the Resurrection and per the context of looking back after Jesus' post-Crucifixion appearances. And this is but one example of prophecies not being understood ahead of time. Also, prophesies often subsequently and progressively begin to build upon the earlier ones, as their revelations are progressively understood per their contexts and timing.

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#27

Post by Davy » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:37 pm

Philip wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:49 pm
If the prophesies were expected to be perfectly understood when first given, isn't it a bit strange that Jesus' disciples, life-long Jews who had studied the Scriptures since childhood, who journeyed with Christ across occupied Israel doing all manner of miracles, heard him stress what he was here to do, etc - and they STILL didn't get it! Not to mention that the prophesies built upon each other. And not until they saw the risen Christ did His followers start to really understand. The people of Jesus' time had a totally wrong understanding of what the prophesied Messiah would be like and what he would come to do - as they all misunderstood the prophesies concerning His true purposes - or the extent of their impact beyond the Jews. Even after the Resurrection, upon the salvation of the Roman Centurion Cornelius, did Peter even grasp that Jesus came to also save Gentiles. The Jews just didn't see this coming - despite the prophesies about this.
....
Your error is in wrongly assuming the 'purpose' of Christ's crucifixion upon the cross was clearly prophesied in the OT when it was not. Details of His crucifixion were covered in Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 alright, but not the what and how Jesus would present Himself as the Perfect Sacrifice for sin. None in the OT understood that part. But they did understand He was to come, and His birth would be in connection with Bethlehem, and He would rule as King, etc. Even when the Apostles in Acts 1 asked Jesus if He then would restore Israel, that was from their understanding of OT prophecy about Messiah.

So before one goes on presenting ideas about Bible prophecy that are not true, it's better to have first learning exactly what was prophesied in the Old Testament, and what was not.

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#28

Post by Philip » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:48 pm

Davy, the Jews clearly did not understand the nature of the Messiah's mission. More significantly, and similar to today's Endtimers, they universally had false beliefs about what He would do when He arrived. They speculated He would arrive a conquering and powerful King who would restore Israel from their Roman occupation - certainly not a meek, suffering Lord. Point is, there is a lot that was in the prophecies that they didn't correctly comprehend. But, believe whatever / whichever version of Endtimes specifics you prefer - just know that you do so without the clarification and missing ariables each require.

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Re: Seventy weeks Daniel 9

#29

Post by Davy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:12 am

Philip wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:48 pm
....
But, believe whatever / whichever version of Endtimes specifics you prefer - just know that you do so without the clarification and missing variables each require.
Again you make statements that make no sense. There is no "version of Endtimes specifics" with missing variables. It's not rocket science, nor software programming. It's a simple matter of opening up God's Word and reading it and heeding what it says while in Faith asking Him for understanding. Clarifications are covered by more Bible study as God gives more than one witness of a thing in His Word in various Books throughout. Most often, there's more than two Bible witnesses given for a subject.

So I will believe what God's Word declares as written, and regardless of how some think who can and who cannot understand Bible prophecy. And right now, in our times, prophecy in God's Word is wide open to understanding for those who study and listen to Him, and not to man.

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