This is an earlier post by me, from a different thread, but the questions are relevant and remain unanswered.
puritan lad wrote:
Daniel 9 makes no mention of antichrist or a millennial kingdom. And if it hasn't been completed yet, then Daniel was a false prophet, since the 490 years have already passed. It was Christ who comfirmed the covenant with many (Matthew 26:28), identified the Abomination of Desolation as the Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (Compare Matthew 24:15-21 with Luke 21:20-24), and is the prince who "came shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". Therefore, since Daniel 9 has been fulfilled, then vision and prophecy has been sealed up.
1. What was the purpose of the 490 year prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27?
2. If there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week, what allows you to expand the 70th week to begin at the "Last Supper" (Matt 26:28) and end in 70AD?
3. How can Christ be the prince who "came shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" when the prophecy states that it is the "people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"?(Dan 9:26 NASU)
4. You differentiated between Jesus coming in the clouds and His second advent.
puritan lad wrote:Christ's "coming in the clouds" was not a literal Advent, and clearly happened in the First Century (see Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:30-34). In fact, God's "cloud coming" judgments happen throughout the Bible - See Isaiah's Prophecy against Egypt in 730 BC (Isaiah 19:1) and Jeremiah's Prophecy against Jerusalem in 620 BC (Jeremiah 4:13). The Second Advent is a different scenario altogether, when he comes is the same manner in which he left (Acts 1:11), and history comes to an end (2 Peter 3:10).
Christ's "coming in the clouds" non-literal Advent did not "clearly" happen in the First Century. Here's why:
1. Matthew 10:23 makes no mention of Jesus "coming in the clouds" and He knew that the twelve men to whom He was talking would die or be exiled before they finished going through the cities of Israel. That leaves an open date for the Son of Man to come.
2. Matthew 16:27-28 makes no mention of Jesus "coming in the clouds" and some of those who Jesus was talking did not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. John recorded the fulfillment in chapter 12 verses 12-16: "On the next day the large crowd who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, "Hosanna! BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, even the King of Israel." 14 Jesus, finding a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written, 15 "FEAR NOT, DAUGHTER OF ZION; BEHOLD, YOUR KING IS COMING, SEATED ON A DONKEY'S COLT." 16 These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him. (John 12:12-16 NASU)
3. Matthew 24:30-34 (just for grins, lets throw in verses 29 and 35 too): Matt 24:29-35: "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. 32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."
Finally a scripture about the Son of Man coming on the clouds, but that happens after the sign of the end of the age which happens immediately after the great tribulation which is cut short so that mankind would survive. Doesn't sound like 70AD to me. Jesus didn't throw in, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away" as an after thought. It meant something. It meant a great deal. The generation that witnessed all the things prior to verse 34 would also witness Heaven and earth passing away.
4. Of the other two "cloud coming" judgments, only Isaiah speaks of God riding a swift cloud. The Jeremiah passage refers to an invading army that will destroy Jerusalem. Other than those two references that you made, I could not find any other "cloud coming" judgments in the Bible. These judgments do not "happen throughout the Bible."
The scriptures make no distinction between "cloud coming" judgments and the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. Whether He appears, is revealed or comes, it is the Second Advent and Jesus will remove the Church, seal a remnant of Israel and pour out His vengeance on the ungodly before He sits down on His throne.
You used Acts 1:11 as a second advent scripture but it more accurately describes a "coming in the clouds" event. In the context of Acts 1:9,10,11, it sounds like Matt 24:30.
You used 2 Peter 3:10 to show that "history comes to an end." In the context of verse 3 through verse 13, Peter says that in the last days mockers will come and then tells his audience to look for the day of God and puts himself in the middle of it by saying, "(w)e are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
The above passage is a very good description of Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted in Acts 2:17-21:
17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
19 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
20 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
But you said that Peter said that the day of the Lord was fulfilled on Pentecost.
puritan lad wrote:
1harpazo wrote:At no point did Peter suggest that any portion of Joel's prophecy would NOT wait another 2,000 years to see it's fulfillment.
Yes he did. He clearly said that the entire prophecy was being fulfilled before their eyes on the Day of Pentecost. Read Acts 2:16 over and over a few times and then justify the above quote.
5. How many "last days" and "Days of the Lord" are there?
6. Are there any other scriptures that speak of Jesus' second advent?
7. How does the "end of the age" in Dan. 12:13 compare to the "end of the age" in Matt. 24:3?