Can God Tell Time?

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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puritan lad
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Can God Tell Time?

#1

Post by puritan lad » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:55 pm

There is something quite wrong with modern eschatology timelines...

(Jesus, to his disciples) Matthew 10:23 – “You shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.”

Matthew 16:28 – “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 24:34 - “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

(Paul, to the Roman Church) Romans 13:11-12 - "You know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; the night is far gone, the day is at hand."

(Paul, to the Corinthian Church) 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 - "Brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away."

1 Corinthians 10:11 - "On [us] the ends of the ages have come."

(Paul, to the Philippian Church) Philippians 4:5 - "The Lord is at hand."

(James, in the 40's AD) James 5:8-9 - "The coming of the Lord is at hand. ... Behold, the Judge is standing at the door."

(Peter, to first century saints) 1 Peter 4:7 - "The end of all things is at hand."

(John, to first century saints) 1 John 2:18 - "It is the last hour ... we know that it is the last hour."
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#2

Post by wrain62 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:29 pm

puritan lad wrote:Matthew 16:28 – “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
Well John wrote Revelations so he did see it.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#3

Post by puritan lad » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:53 pm

Now that's an interesting approach. Did the high priest see it as well? (Matthew 26:64).

When John wrote Revelation, why did he say that the the events would happen shortly (Revelation 1:1), were near (Revelation 1:3) and were about to come upon the whole land (Revelation 1:19)?

If I didn't know better, I would think that these writers were talking about first century events.
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#4

Post by neo-x » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:21 pm

Did the high priest see it as well? (Matthew 26:64).
Well who knows, may be he did, in a secret vision from God, just like John, and it was just never recorded in the Bible.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#5

Post by puritan lad » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:44 am

What about the rest of the passages, especially Matthew 10:23 and Matthew 24:34? These require more than just a vision, but an actually event (or events).
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#6

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:09 am

I know God can tell time. It's the people telling me what time is showing on God's watch that I'm worried about.
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#7

Post by Rob » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:24 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:I know God can tell time. It's the people telling me what time is showing on God's watch that I'm worried about.
Ha! Indeed!

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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#8

Post by puritan lad » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:45 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:I know God can tell time. It's the people telling me what time is showing on God's watch that I'm worried about.
Quite true. Or even worse, that God himself was mistaken when He gave us the time on His watch.
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#9

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:56 am

puritan lad wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:I know God can tell time. It's the people telling me what time is showing on God's watch that I'm worried about.
Quite true. Or even worse, that God himself was mistaken when He gave us the time on His watch.
Never an issue for me. God's never mistaken, but there's no shortage on those who are mistaken in what they believe they're hearing from God. Saying that in general and not aimed anywhere here. That's a universal issue that always has to be taken into account.
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#10

Post by jlay » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:10 pm

Matthew 16:28 – “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
In each case among the gospels in which it is mentioned, this statement is followed by the transfiguration. I don't find that any small matter. Now, I agree that it doesn't address what is said later in Matt. 26

You mention an event. What event is the preterist view referring to in which this is fulfilled? Matt. 26:64
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#11

Post by puritan lad » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:58 pm

jlay wrote:
Matthew 16:28 – “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
In each case among the gospels in which it is mentioned, this statement is followed by the transfiguration. I don't find that any small matter. Now, I agree that it doesn't address what is said later in Matt. 26

You mention an event. What event is the preterist view referring to in which this is fulfilled? Matt. 26:64
That's a common modern-day interpretation, but it doesn't hold any water. (The good part is that even most diehard dispensationalists have to admit that this particular example of the "Son of Man coming in glory" was not the second advent. I once had a prophecy guru try to convince me that the Apostle John was still alive and hiding out on a greek island somewhere awaiting the second advent.)

Did Christ "reward each person according to what they have done" at the transfiguration?

Also, Christ's statement in Matthew 16:27-28 is nearly identical in Greek to His statement in Matthew 25:31, which takes place after the transfiguration. Is there any reason not to interpret these as the exact same event, especially given the time frame of Matthew 24:34?

As far as the "event", it was Christ's coming in judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD (see Matthew 21:40-45, Matthew 23:31-39 and Matthew 24:1-3).
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#12

Post by Gman » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:31 pm

I've read these verses and I fail to see how they uphold the preterists view. Actually it's pretty weak...

Good luck in opposing G-d... Not to mention using His name in vain.
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#13

Post by B. W. » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:59 pm

puritan lad wrote:Matthew 16:28 – “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
Which death was he refering too - Rev 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death (See Verse 14) has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." NKJV

Rev 20:7, "Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea." NKJV

Rev 20:9-10, "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." NKJV

Rev 20:11-13, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." NKJV

Rev 20:14-15 , Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
" NKJV
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#14

Post by puritan lad » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:50 am

G-Man,

Not really a lot of substance in your post. Actually, I only gave a few verses with time frame references. There are many more. How is my case weak? What do you think these men were talking about?

As far as opposing God and using his name in vain, you'll have to be more specific?

B.W.,

You are suggesting that Jesus was speaking of the second death? In that case, what does the coming of His kingdom have to do with it? Are some going to Hell before his kingdom comes, and others afterwards? Is this what the Apostles understood? No wonder that were all mistaken about the Second coming (I've actually had people tell me that in weaker moments.)
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Re: Can God Tell Time?

#15

Post by jlay » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:41 am

That's a common modern-day interpretation, but it doesn't hold any water. (The good part is that even most diehard dispensationalists have to admit that this particular example of the "Son of Man coming in glory" was not the second advent. I once had a prophecy guru try to convince me that the Apostle John was still alive and hiding out on a greek island somewhere awaiting the second advent.)

Did Christ "reward each person according to what they have done" at the transfiguration?

Also, Christ's statement in Matthew 16:27-28 is nearly identical in Greek to His statement in Matthew 25:31, which takes place after the transfiguration. Is there any reason not to interpret these as the exact same event, especially given the time frame of Matthew 24:34?

As far as the "event", it was Christ's coming in judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD (see Matthew 21:40-45, Matthew 23:31-39 and Matthew 24:1-3).
Is there any reason? Well, yes. Of course there is, as for reasons already stated.

In Matt 16 this was a literal, visual reality. Not a mystical event. And many believe to be a foretaste of the final return to establish the Kingdom on Earth.
The fact is that in three gospels this account is mentioned and in each one it is immediately followed by the transfiguration where they see a glorified Christ.
It would be contextual error to ignore this. And therefore the context of Matt 16 and 24 have to be considered. I can not and will not defend other dispensationalist who state things I do not agree with. As you already know there are many different positions within dispensationalism, and I will be the first to admit that this is where a lot of error creaps in. But that is also why we have distinctions in preterism as well. You sound more like a full-preterist too me.

"Jesus says to him [Caiaphas], Thou [singular] hast said. Moreover, I say to you [plural], From henceforth ye [plural] shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64)

PL, I ask this in all seriousness.
Preterist believe in literal fullfillment of tribulation, destruction of temple, persecution, fleeing, etc.
But then what about in the same context with Matt. 24:30-31

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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