Rapture anti-Semitic

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#31

Post by 1harpazo » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:04 pm

Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote: No, no...to my cloud, you know, cloud, not couch! Where in the Bible does it say that they confront their enemies?
All of G-d's prophets faced gruesome deaths.. Including G-d himself. Frankly I don't see how you can get around this.
Since we are speaking of the rapture and the last days, my question was about does G-d confront all the nations who come against Israel in the last days, but I see now that I was as clear as mud, sorry. When you included G-d as those who faced gruesome deaths, you really meant Jesus (the man), didn't you?
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote: Really? Luke was wrong in chapter 1 verse 6? Jesus was wrong to tell the ruler to keep the commandments to earn eternal life? Because Abraham believed G-d, it was reckoned to HIM as righteousness. Then came Moses and the Ten Commandments. The Law was still in effect when Jesus was alive, hence Zack and Liz were RIGHTEOUS by keeping the whole law and Jesus told the ruler that he could obtain eternal life if he kept the whole law. Paul wrote Romans under the NEW Covenant of grace. Remember?
Actually the New covenant never replaced the law... The law is still there for us to do, but only what applies Rom. 2:13. But it doesn't justify us, it's there to sanctify us.

So.. Speaking of law, do you stop your car at stop signs? Same thing.
Supposing that Zachariah and Elizabeth kept all the commandments and requirements of the Lord, thereby being righteous in G-d's sight (Luke 1:6), upon their deaths, did they go be with the Lord?

Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote: Maybe not beaming us, but more like SNATCHING us.
Same thing...
So there is a rapture?
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote: I didn't say that we're not going face problems. On the contrary, we're going to be in the midst of the worst tribulation mankind has ever experienced. Jesus is going to snatch us (believers) out of this world just a nano second before He pours out His wrath, vengeance, judgment on all who rejected Him.
Ok.. And what happened to those Jews in the Exodus when G-d poured out the plagues out on the Egyptians? Why didn't G-d snatch them up too?
They (the Israelites) were in Goshen? He hid them in their houses? Actually, He supernaturally protected those who obeyed His commands. He couldn't snatch them up, because they had a wilderness to walk through before they arrived at the Promised Land, but I see your point. That being said, Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will rise first (1Thes 4:16) and then we (believers) who are alive (1 Thes 4:17) will be snatched up together with them (the dead in Christ) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the AIR (Gk: aer: breathable air). Thus we will always be with the Lord (whether He's on earth, above it, or in Heaven). This rapture occurs at the Lord's coming (1Thes 4:15).

Here's the kicker: The church is going to be supernaturally protected and blessed during the 70th week of Daniel-just like the Israelites in Egypt, Noah, the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace, Daniel in the lions' den, etc. There will be persecution and martyrdom during that week, but G-d will give us enough grace to get through it. G-d will be glorified through the church so as to bring multitudes to the Lord during that time.

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#32

Post by Gman » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:17 pm

1harpazo wrote:
Since we are speaking of the rapture and the last days, my question was about does G-d confront all the nations who come against Israel in the last days, but I see now that I was as clear as mud, sorry. When you included G-d as those who faced gruesome deaths, you really meant Jesus (the man), didn't you?
Yes but I prefer to call him by his hebrew name called Yeshua.
1harpazo wrote: Supposing that Zachariah and Elizabeth kept all the commandments and requirements of the Lord, thereby being righteous in G-d's sight (Luke 1:6), upon their deaths, did they go be with the Lord?
No one can keep all the law and stand before G-d... No one.
1harpazo wrote:So there is a rapture?
Gman wrote:Did I ever say that?
1harpazo wrote: They (the Israelites) were in Goshen? He hid them in their houses? Actually, He supernaturally protected those who obeyed His commands. He couldn't snatch them up, because they had a wilderness to walk through before they arrived at the Promised Land, but I see your point.
Yes.. As you can see through biblical history that was always the case.. G-d's people always went through tribulation not supernaturally teleported to a nice cloud in the sky.
1harpazo wrote:That being said, Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will rise first (1Thes 4:16) and then we (believers) who are alive (1 Thes 4:17) will be snatched up together with them (the dead in Christ) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the AIR (Gk: aer: breathable air). Thus we will always be with the Lord (whether He's on earth, above it, or in Heaven). This rapture occurs at the Lord's coming (1Thes 4:15).
I would say that you need to be a little more familiar with Hebrew poetry. Not everything you read can always be taken as literal... In many cases "Clouds" and "Air" can also be interpreted as the spiritual realm. As an example the same word "Air" is also described as being the spiritual world in Ephesians 2:2. Look at Strong's# 109 if you don't believe me.
1harpazo wrote:Here's the kicker: The church is going to be supernaturally protected and blessed during the 70th week of Daniel-just like the Israelites in Egypt, Noah, the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace, Daniel in the lions' den, etc. There will be persecution and martyrdom during that week, but G-d will give us enough grace to get through it. G-d will be glorified through the church so as to bring multitudes to the Lord during that time.
Yes.. We will be protected, but not teleported.. That would be my opinion however..

Just don't be fooled... Consider all things.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#33

Post by dayage » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:53 pm

Gman,

I'll ask this again.

What does this verse say is going to happen?
1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
If you admit that we leave the surface of this planet, then you believe in the Rapture. You may not hold to certain interpretations of the Rapture, but it is clearly taught in the Bible and was taught by the early church.
I would say that you need to be a little more familiar with Hebrew poetry. Not everything you read can always be taken as literal... In many cases "Clouds" and "Air" can also be interpreted as the spiritual realm. As an example the same word "Air" is also described as being the spiritual world in Ephesians 2:2.
You just made things even more difficult for your position. Now you are stuck between being snatched up into the air or into the spiritual realm. The Rapture is a Biblical fact. The timing is the only thing in question.

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#34

Post by 1harpazo » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:15 am

Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:
Supposing that Zachariah and Elizabeth kept all the commandments and requirements of the Lord, thereby being righteous in G-d's sight (Luke 1:6), upon their deaths, did they go be with the Lord?
No one can keep all the law and stand before G-d... No one.
Your opinion. Luke's statement: "They (Zack and Liz) were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord." (Luke 1:6 NASU)
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote: They (the Israelites) were in Goshen? He hid them in their houses? Actually, He supernaturally protected those who obeyed His commands. He couldn't snatch them up, because they had a wilderness to walk through before they arrived at the Promised Land, but I see your point.
Yes.. As you can see through biblical history that was always the case.. G-d's people always went through tribulation not supernaturally teleported to a nice cloud in the sky.
Are you saying that "tribulation" is G-d's judgment? Always? One could argue that by being in Goshen or their houses, the Hebrews were removed before G-d's judgment came on the Egyptians. How about Noah? He and his family floated above the judgment waters. How about Lot? He and his family were led out of the city before G-d's judgment fell on Sodom and Gomorrah. How about the last days? G-d will remove all the righteous before He pours out His judgment on the ungodly. G-d will remove the righteous because, "God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing." (1 Thes. 5:9-11 NASU). By the way, I don't believe in a "Pre-Trib" rapture. It's going to be a "Pre-Wrath" rapture.

Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:That being said, Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will rise first (1Thes 4:16) and then we (believers) who are alive (1 Thes 4:17) will be snatched up together with them (the dead in Christ) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the AIR (Gk: aer: breathable air). Thus we will always be with the Lord (whether He's on earth, above it, or in Heaven). This rapture occurs at the Lord's coming (1Thes 4:15).
I would say that you need to be a little more familiar with Hebrew poetry. Not everything you read can always be taken as literal... In many cases "Clouds" and "Air" can also be interpreted as the spiritual realm. As an example the same word "Air" is also described as being the spiritual world in Ephesians 2:2. Look at Strong's# 109 if you don't believe me.
You said, "Not everything you read can always be taken as literal." That's right unless the context of the passage demands a literal interpretation. So in 1 Thes. 4:15, Paul said that the Lord is coming (back). Is this a literal event or spiritual? Do you believe that Yeshua is going to literally, bodily return (come back; parousia) to Earth? Will His parousia be in the same accord (not Honda) as His departure (Acts 1:9-11)? Was His departure literal or spiritual? Notice that Yeshua departed in the breathable, circumambient air and was actually received into a cloud that His disciples saw with their physical eyes.

As for Strong's 109, I did look it up. That 's why I put it in my previous post. In Ephesians 2:2, does the prince of the power of the air have power to affect the air we breath, the wind, the weather? Is this prince the spirit that works in the sons of disobedience? What's the spiritual interpretation?

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#35

Post by Gman » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:08 pm

dayage wrote:Gman,

I'll ask this again.

What does this verse say is going to happen?
1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
If you admit that we leave the surface of this planet, then you believe in the Rapture. You may not hold to certain interpretations of the Rapture, but it is clearly taught in the Bible and was taught by the early church.
No.. The scripture does not say that we leave this earth. That is a belief..
dayage wrote:You just made things even more difficult for your position. Now you are stuck between being snatched up into the air or into the spiritual realm. The Rapture is a Biblical fact. The timing is the only thing in question.
No it is not a Biblical fact.. It's more like an opinion. AND being in the spiritual realm can happen to anyone. Take the apostle John for instance when he was caught up into the spirit on the Lord's day on the island of Patmos and still wrote about it in his physical body.

Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

Therefore when this event happens we will be with the Lord forever.

Don't be fooled with this rapture stuff... Study Bible history... Always.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#36

Post by Gman » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:28 pm

1harpazo wrote:
Your opinion. Luke's statement: "They (Zack and Liz) were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord." (Luke 1:6 NASU)
Right... So how do you walk in the commandments of G-d? What does that verse mean?
1harpazo wrote:
Are you saying that "tribulation" is G-d's judgment? Always? One could argue that by being in Goshen or their houses, the Hebrews were removed before G-d's judgment came on the Egyptians. How about Noah? He and his family floated above the judgment waters. How about Lot? He and his family were led out of the city before G-d's judgment fell on Sodom and Gomorrah. How about the last days? G-d will remove all the righteous before He pours out His judgment on the ungodly. G-d will remove the righteous because, "God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing." (1 Thes. 5:9-11 NASU). By the way, I don't believe in a "Pre-Trib" rapture. It's going to be a "Pre-Wrath" rapture.
Well again that is your opinion... If you noticed about those cases your brought up from Biblical history NONE of them were teleported. They actually had to act on G-d's word. Noah, had to build and ark, Lot had to move away from Sodom and Gomorrah, the Hebrews had to stay in their houses AND had to apply blood on the doorpost to escape G-d's judgment.

We are NOT destined for wrath if we hold fast to G-d...
1harpazo wrote: You said, "Not everything you read can always be taken as literal." That's right unless the context of the passage demands a literal interpretation. So in 1 Thes. 4:15, Paul said that the Lord is coming (back). Is this a literal event or spiritual? Do you believe that Yeshua is going to literally, bodily return (come back; parousia) to Earth? Will His parousia be in the same accord (not Honda) as His departure (Acts 1:9-11)? Was His departure literal or spiritual? Notice that Yeshua departed in the breathable, circumambient air and was actually received into a cloud that His disciples saw with their physical eyes.
No... Now you are taking what I said out of context... What I'm saying is that when you use the words like "Air" it doesn't have to mean just the physical air. In can also mean the spiritual realm too as Ephesians 2:2 clearly states.
1harpazo wrote:As for Strong's 109, I did look it up. That 's why I put it in my previous post. In Ephesians 2:2, does the prince of the power of the air have power to affect the air we breath, the wind, the weather? Is this prince the spirit that works in the sons of disobedience? What's the spiritual interpretation?
The spiritual and the physical would appear to intersect in many cases..

Again.. all I'm saying is to be careful with this rapture teaching.. If it doesn't happen that way, you will be responsible for turning many people away from the faith. Be careful... If you want to say it's theory that's fine.. But I wouldn't marry it...

Be wise...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#37

Post by 1harpazo » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:06 pm

Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:
Your opinion. Luke's statement: "They (Zack and Liz) were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord." (Luke 1:6 NASU)
Right... So how do you walk in the commandments of G-d? What does that verse mean?
However they did it, they did it right because they were righteous in the sight of God. I take the verse at face value-literally.
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:
Are you saying that "tribulation" is G-d's judgment? Always? One could argue that by being in Goshen or their houses, the Hebrews were removed before G-d's judgment came on the Egyptians. How about Noah? He and his family floated above the judgment waters. How about Lot? He and his family were led out of the city before G-d's judgment fell on Sodom and Gomorrah. How about the last days? G-d will remove all the righteous before He pours out His judgment on the ungodly. G-d will remove the righteous because, "God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing." (1 Thes. 5:9-11 NASU). By the way, I don't believe in a "Pre-Trib" rapture. It's going to be a "Pre-Wrath" rapture.
Well again that is your opinion... If you noticed about those cases your brought up from Biblical history NONE of them were teleported. They actually had to act on G-d's word. Noah, had to build and ark, Lot had to move away from Sodom and Gomorrah, the Hebrews had to stay in their houses AND had to apply blood on the doorpost to escape G-d's judgment.

We are NOT destined for wrath if we hold fast to G-d...
The reason I used those examples was two-fold. First to refute your statement, "As you can see through biblical history that was always the case.. G-d's people always went through tribulation not supernaturally teleported to a nice cloud in the sky." God's people do not ALWAYS go through God's wrath. Secondly, God's people may not have been "teleported to a nice cloud in the sky," but they were REMOVED before God's wrath was poured out on the ungodly. What if in the last days God's wrath is poured out on the entire, complete, whole Earth, where are the righteous to go to avoid God's wrath? Obviously no where on Earth.
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote: You said, "Not everything you read can always be taken as literal." That's right unless the context of the passage demands a literal interpretation. So in 1 Thes. 4:15, Paul said that the Lord is coming (back). Is this a literal event or spiritual? Do you believe that Yeshua is going to literally, bodily return (come back; parousia) to Earth? Will His parousia be in the same accord (not Honda) as His departure (Acts 1:9-11)? Was His departure literal or spiritual? Notice that Yeshua departed in the breathable, circumambient air and was actually received into a cloud that His disciples saw with their physical eyes.
No... Now you are taking what I said out of context... What I'm saying is that when you use the words like "Air" it doesn't have to mean just the physical air. In can also mean the spiritual realm too as Ephesians 2:2 clearly states.
I did not. If the context demands a literal interpretation, then that's how it should be taken. So, is Jesus' coming back a literal event? If it is, then the rapture is a literal event because Paul linked the two together.
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:As for Strong's 109, I did look it up. That 's why I put it in my previous post. In Ephesians 2:2, does the prince of the power of the air have power to affect the air we breath, the wind, the weather? Is this prince the spirit that works in the sons of disobedience? What's the spiritual interpretation?
The spiritual and the physical would appear to intersect in many cases..
Maybe in a few cases, but in the case of Jesus' second coming and the rapture, it is strictly literal.
Gman wrote:Again.. all I'm saying is to be careful with this rapture teaching..


You think I came to these conclusions willy-nilly? It would far easier to cop to a "Pre-trib" rapture where "we are raptured before anything bad happens." Or worse yet, a "Pan-Trib" rapture-no matter when it happens, it will all "Pan" out in the end. Pitiful.
Gman wrote:If it doesn't happen that way, you will be responsible for turning many people away from the faith. Be careful... If you want to say it's theory that's fine.. But I wouldn't marry it...

Be wise...
When it does happen that way, maybe more people will be prepared for the last days. The rapture is as much a theory as the second coming of Jesus. Maybe you wouldn't marry it but I have because I have that much confidence that Paul was inspired by God to link the two events together.

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#38

Post by Gman » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:32 pm

1harpazo wrote:
However they did it, they did it right because they were righteous in the sight of God. I take the verse at face value-literally.
So do I..
1harpazo wrote:The reason I used those examples was two-fold. First to refute your statement, "As you can see through biblical history that was always the case.. G-d's people always went through tribulation not supernaturally teleported to a nice cloud in the sky." God's people do not ALWAYS go through God's wrath.
No.. Show me in scripture where G-d supernaturally teleported someone away from danger.
1harpazo wrote: Secondly, God's people may not have been "teleported to a nice cloud in the sky," but they were REMOVED before God's wrath was poured out on the ungodly. What if in the last days God's wrath is poured out on the entire, complete, whole Earth, where are the righteous to go to avoid God's wrath? Obviously no where on Earth.
That would be your own interpretation.. Also, if you want to use Noah's flood as an example, Noah still had to build an ark and was not teleported.
1harpazo wrote:I did not. If the context demands a literal interpretation, then that's how it should be taken. So, is Jesus' coming back a literal event? If it is, then the rapture is a literal event because Paul linked the two together.
Oh it will be a literal event, it just might not happen the way you think it will however.
1harpazo wrote:You think I came to these conclusions willy-nilly? It would far easier to cop to a "Pre-trib" rapture where "we are raptured before anything bad happens." Or worse yet, a "Pan-Trib" rapture-no matter when it happens, it will all "Pan" out in the end. Pitiful.
I think you can believe anything you want.. Just don't take it as fact.
1harpazo wrote:When it does happen that way, maybe more people will be prepared for the last days. The rapture is as much a theory as the second coming of Jesus. Maybe you wouldn't marry it but I have because I have that much confidence that Paul was inspired by God to link the two events together.
It seems that if they believe they will be raptured, then they won't be prepared for the tribulation and will be tricked. That is all I'm saying here...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#39

Post by 1harpazo » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:32 am

Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:
However they did it, they did it right because they were righteous in the sight of God. I take the verse at face value-literally.
So do I..
So we agree that under the covenant of the Law, a person who kept all the law and commandments would upon his death be with God for eternity?
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote: Secondly, God's people may not have been "teleported to a nice cloud in the sky," but they were REMOVED before God's wrath was poured out on the ungodly. What if in the last days God's wrath is poured out on the entire, complete, whole Earth, where are the righteous to go to avoid God's wrath? Obviously no where on Earth.
That would be your own interpretation.. Also, if you want to use Noah's flood as an example, Noah still had to build an ark and was not teleported.
You don't see being separated from the judgment waters by an ark as being "removed". Noah wasn't in the water. What about Lot? He was removed by angels (supernatural event, no?) out of Sodom. You chose to ignore my last example of God's wrath being poured on the entire, complete, whole Earth. Where are the believers (dead and alive) going to go?
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:I did not. If the context demands a literal interpretation, then that's how it should be taken. So, is Jesus' coming back a literal event? If it is, then the rapture is a literal event because Paul linked the two together.
Oh it will be a literal event, it just might not happen the way you think it will however.
So the rapture will be a literal event. What's your interpretation of the rapture and how it will happen and what scriptures do you base your interpretation on?
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:You think I came to these conclusions willy-nilly? It would far easier to cop to a "Pre-trib" rapture where "we are raptured before anything bad happens." Or worse yet, a "Pan-Trib" rapture-no matter when it happens, it will all "Pan" out in the end. Pitiful.
I think you can believe anything you want.. Just don't take it as fact.
We've established that the rapture is a literal event that is going to happen. God said so. That's a fact. It's just the timing that is disputed by Christians. In so many words, I said that I don't believe in the "Pre-Trib" (before the 70th week of Daniel) rapture timing. I believe in the "Post-Great Tribulation" rapture (Mat. 24:29). In fact, that's why the great tribulation (a time period entirely inside the 70th week of Daniel) is cut short. It is cut short when Jesus returns and removes His church from the Earth just before He pours out His vengeance and wrath on all the unbelievers.
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote:When it does happen that way, maybe more people will be prepared for the last days. The rapture is as much a theory as the second coming of Jesus. Maybe you wouldn't marry it but I have because I have that much confidence that Paul was inspired by God to link the two events together.
It seems that if they believe they will be raptured, then they won't be prepared for the tribulation and will be tricked. That is all I'm saying here...
Here it sounds like you're describing a "Pre-Trib" rapture. It won't be. The church will enter the 70th week of Daniel, but will exit before it's over. If the church is removed before the 70th week and the entire 70th week is God's wrath, then nobody will be saved during the 70th week.

As far as being tricked, Paul said that we are not in darkness that the day will overtake us like a thief, but that we are sons of light and sons of the day (1 The.5:4,5). He said that we are to be alert, self-controlled and wise and to put on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation (1 The. 5:6,8). The breastplate protects our hearts and extinguishes all the fiery darts of the enemy and the helmet protects our minds and keeps us from being deceived by false Christs, the Anti-Christ and the enemy himself.

The ones who will be tricked are the ones who did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved and take pleasure in wickedness (2 The. 2:10, 12). God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe lies (2 The. 4:11). They won't have their helmets on.

If the church is going to go through a part of the 70th week, how are we going to encourage one another and build up one another, as Paul said to do? God, through His great love, grace and mercy, will bless those who are obeying Him so much during that time that the unbelievers will be dumb-founded. Our light will so shine before men that those men will ask us how is it that we are so blessed. That's our opening...

Keep looking up for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#40

Post by Gman » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:10 pm

1harpazo wrote: So we agree that under the covenant of the Law, a person who kept all the law and commandments would upon his death be with God for eternity?
No one can keep all of G-d's commandments.. We have faith then we follow His commandments.
1harpazo wrote: You don't see being separated from the judgment waters by an ark as being "removed". Noah wasn't in the water. What about Lot? He was removed by angels (supernatural event, no?) out of Sodom. You chose to ignore my last example of God's wrath being poured on the entire, complete, whole Earth. Where are the believers (dead and alive) going to go?
No... Noah was not teleported... Lot was not teleported... Guided, but not teleported..
1harpazo wrote:So the rapture will be a literal event. What's your interpretation of the rapture and how it will happen and what scriptures do you base your interpretation on?
There is no word for "rapture" in scripture.. My belief is that we will be guided out of it however... How? Read the beginnings.
1harpazo wrote:We've established that the rapture is a literal event that is going to happen. God said so. That's a fact. It's just the timing that is disputed by Christians. In so many words, I said that I don't believe in the "Pre-Trib" (before the 70th week of Daniel) rapture timing. I believe in the "Post-Great Tribulation" rapture (Mat. 24:29). In fact, that's why the great tribulation (a time period entirely inside the 70th week of Daniel) is cut short. It is cut short when Jesus returns and removes His church from the Earth just before He pours out His vengeance and wrath on all the unbelievers.
Then that is your belief... That is not a fact.
1harpazo wrote:Here it sounds like you're describing a "Pre-Trib" rapture. It won't be. The church will enter the 70th week of Daniel, but will exit before it's over. If the church is removed before the 70th week and the entire 70th week is God's wrath, then nobody will be saved during the 70th week.

As far as being tricked, Paul said that we are not in darkness that the day will overtake us like a thief, but that we are sons of light and sons of the day (1 The.5:4,5). He said that we are to be alert, self-controlled and wise and to put on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation (1 The. 5:6,8). The breastplate protects our hearts and extinguishes all the fiery darts of the enemy and the helmet protects our minds and keeps us from being deceived by false Christs, the Anti-Christ and the enemy himself.

The ones who will be tricked are the ones who did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved and take pleasure in wickedness (2 The. 2:10, 12). God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe lies (2 The. 4:11). They won't have their helmets on.

If the church is going to go through a part of the 70th week, how are we going to encourage one another and build up one another, as Paul said to do? God, through His great love, grace and mercy, will bless those who are obeying Him so much during that time that the unbelievers will be dumb-founded. Our light will so shine before men that those men will ask us how is it that we are so blessed. That's our opening...

Keep looking up for your redemption draweth nigh.
Yes.. Well keep your helmet on. We are going to need it.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#41

Post by 1harpazo » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:53 am

Gman wrote: No one can keep all of G-d's commandments..
That's a pretty heady statement. Who's right you or Luke (Luke 1:6)?
Gman wrote:
1harpazo wrote: You don't see being separated from the judgment waters by an ark as being "removed". Noah wasn't in the water. What about Lot? He was removed by angels (supernatural event, no?) out of Sodom. You chose to ignore my last example of God's wrath being poured on the entire, complete, whole Earth. Where are the believers (dead and alive) going to go?
No... Noah was not teleported... Lot was not teleported... Guided, but not teleported..
Hate to be a nag, but where is Jesus going to "guide" all the believers before He pours out His wrath on the entire Earth?

Gman wrote:There is no word for "rapture" in scripture..
Quite right, but the Greek word "harpazo" (Strong's #726) appears in 1Thes. 4:17. "Harpazo" is rendered in the KJV as: "catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)." How do you get "Guide" out of that?

Gman wrote:My belief is that we will be guided out of it however...
Then that is your belief... That is not a fact.

After re-reading your posts in this thread, Gman, it seems as though you answered as though a Jew would. Is that the case?

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#42

Post by Gman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:17 pm

1harpazo wrote:
That's a pretty heady statement. Who's right you or Luke (Luke 1:6)?
No one is justified by following G-d's ways.. Only Yeshua could fulfill it.
1harpazo wrote:
Hate to be a nag, but where is Jesus going to "guide" all the believers before He pours out His wrath on the entire Earth?
The way He has always done it.. Using sukkahs.
1harpazo wrote:Quite right, but the Greek word "harpazo" (Strong's #726) appears in 1Thes. 4:17. "Harpazo" is rendered in the KJV as: "catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)." How do you get "Guide" out of that?
Nowhere does Strong's 726 show that the person was taken out of this world but most likely out of a state of carnality and weakness into that of spiritual power. Nothing about teleportion. Sorry.
1harpazo wrote:After re-reading your posts in this thread, Gman, it seems as though you answered as though a Jew would. Is that the case?
Not really sure what you mean here. Again, the event will happen, but not how you may understand it..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#43

Post by dayage » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:01 am

The snatching away of living bodies, often associated with a loud voice and clouds.

Jesus
Acts 1:2 until the day when He was taken up (analambano), after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
9) And after He had said these things, He was lifted up (epairo) while they were looking on, and a cloud received (hupolambano) Him out of their sight.
11) and they also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up (analambano) from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.
22) Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up (analambano) from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Jesus
Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up (harpazo) to God and to His throne.

Philip
Acts 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched (harpazo) Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.
40) But Philip found himself at Azotus; and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities, until he came to Caesarea.

Two Witnesses
Rev. 11:11 And after the three and a half days the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them.
12) And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up (anabaino) here." And they went up (anabaino) into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

Believers
I Thess. 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Possibly Paul
II Cor. 12:1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven.
3) And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--
4) was caught up (harpazo) into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#44

Post by dayage » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:30 am

Gman,

You earlier made reference to being "In the Spirit" (Rev. 1:10-11) as what the harpazo is about. But, that is more like being in a Spirit induced trance, so that visions can be given to a person. This is what happened to Peter, Paul and John (Acts 10:10-11; 11:5; 22:17-18; Rev. 4:1-2; 17:1-3; 21:9-10).

In fact Paul refers to this in II Cor. 12:1-4, where he is not sure if what happened to him was physical or spiritual.

But, I Thess. 4:15-17 is clearly physical, so it cannot be linked with being "in the Spirit."

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Re: Rapture anti-Semitic

#45

Post by 1harpazo » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:06 am

dayage wrote:The snatching away of living bodies, often associated with a loud voice and clouds.

Jesus
Acts 1:2 until the day when He was taken up (analambano), after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
9) And after He had said these things, He was lifted up (epairo) while they were looking on, and a cloud received (hupolambano) Him out of their sight.
11) and they also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up (analambano) from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.
22) Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up (analambano) from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Jesus
Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up (harpazo) to God and to His throne.

Philip
Acts 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched (harpazo) Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.
40) But Philip found himself at Azotus; and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities, until he came to Caesarea.

Two Witnesses
Rev. 11:11 And after the three and a half days the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them.
12) And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up (anabaino) here." And they went up (anabaino) into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

Believers
I Thess. 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Possibly Paul
II Cor. 12:1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven.
3) And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--
4) was caught up (harpazo) into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Hi dayage,

Your's is a great post. I never considered looking for other examples of "harpazo(s)". Well done.

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