Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#31

Post by puritan lad » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:09 pm

This list may help make sense of the Apocalyptic Language in Scripture, as well as provide the OT basis for much of what we see in Revelation.

http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... le_27.html
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#32

Post by 1harpazo » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:38 pm

puritan lad:

What was the purpose of the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:24-27?

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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#33

Post by Gman » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:20 pm

puritan lad wrote:This list may help make sense of the Apocalyptic Language in Scripture, as well as provide the OT basis for much of what we see in Revelation.

http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... le_27.html
A little.. Specifically this section. Future?
5.) Christ, having protected His church through the tribulation, makes His kingdom grow like leaven, until it eventually fills the whole world (Habakkuk 2:14, Matthew 13:33).

6.) Once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in the "natural branches" will be grafted back in (Romans 11:24-26) during the "millenium", which may or may not be a literal 1,000 years. All continue to take part in the "First Resurrection". Amillennialists would have #5 and #6 as one ages, whereas postmillennialists keep them separate.

7.) Christ Returns. Bodily Resurrection of the righteous for eternal life, and the wicked for eternal judgment. (Daniel 12:13, John 5:28-29) History ends (1 Peter 3:10), Those still alive are "raptured" to be with Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) and we live with Christ forever.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#34

Post by B. W. » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:26 pm

puritan lad wrote:
B.W. wrote:As for Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:15-21concerning generations in light of the posted verse above – it does not make any difference since the dead in Christ will be with Jesus in the Air and watch the ones mortal below doing what he says. Your point remains invalid.
This is what we are debating. Why would you assume that 1 Thessalonians 4 has any direct relationship to the event of Matthew 24? My point is that all of the things Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, including the Great Tribulation, are past history. A clear readong of Matthew 24:21, 34 certainly validates this.
Not at all – glad you admit that Preterist re-do Matthew 24:21, 34 for their own purposes.

Let’s go slow because according to the timeline you provided the first Resurrection has already occurred – 70 AD. Let’s see…

Dan 12:1, "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." NASB

Notice how ambiguous bible prophecy is which is fitting as Proverbs 25:2, Proverbs 1:6, and Isaiah 28:9, 10c explains why. Look at Daniel 12:1 quoted above from the NASB anyone notice the word rescue in that verse – wonder if there are any clues elsewhere in the bible that would indicate some sort of rescue/deliverance in keeping with the context of Daniel 12:2, 3c?

Since Daniel’s words refer to a great time of trouble Zep 2:3 comes to mind first: “Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger. ” NKJV

Hmmm interesting? Is there any other bible verses?

Isaiah 26:20, 21c, "20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain." NKJV

Note Verse one and how it leads into the next two verse quoted above:

Isaiah 26: 21c, "Your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead…"

Hmmm interesting as it fits the context of Daniel 12:1 very well about a rescue.

Dan 12: 2, 3, " And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever." NKJV

This statement in Job is very interesting as well: “For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!” Job 19:25-27

You have verses in the bible prophecy that connect in context in some way with one another which involve the following – rescue/deliverance, being hidden, entering into chambers to escape the Lord’s wrath and one that states that after one dies they’ll see God, immediately which relates to Hebrews 9:27 and Paul’s statement on being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in 1 Co 5:1, 6, 10c which refers to standing before the Lord in some manner.

So the question is when will this happen? Here bible prophecy is ambiguous. In Daniel 12:1 verse, is there a pause meaning firsts comes a rescue or does the rescue happened along with the resurrection of the dead mentioned in Daniel 12:2-3.

Was there a psychical resurrection or not that happened 70 AD?

Does Daniel 12:2-3 refer to one event or two: first resurrection of the Just and then another for the unjust? Or is it one event?

Does Isaiah 26 and Zep quoted verse allude to the people known as the just? Is this what Jesus may have been referring too in John 5:28, 29c two events or one, ignoring the rescue part? What of Acts 24:15 two events or one? Then there is Philippians 3:20, 21c and John 6:40 as well.

This brings us to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 and let’s look at verse 14:

1 Th 4:14, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Note it states those who sleep/died will be with Jesus just as Job 19;25-26, Hebrews 9:27, 1 Co 5:5 state will happen immediately after mortal death stings. This is further illustrated in the next verse:

1 Th 4:15, “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Now notice the following verse:

1 Th 4:16, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Whoa – the dead in Christ will rise first??? What??? I thought Paul said they were with Jesus in verse 14 and 15 in the air? Could this be Isa 26:19-21c? One event of Daniel 12:1-3 that Jesus may have been alluding to in John 5:28-29c? If the dead are with Christ already, coming in the air with him – who is he speaking of in verse 16 the dead bodies or those coming out of the great tribulation? But those coming out of the great Tribulation after dying reside with Jesus and thus in the air, would they not be?

The answer to these questions to be honest, at this current date and time Jan 2011, would be – No one knows for certain. This is not clear – there could be a rescue before, during, or at the end of the tribulation period. However one thing for certain comes from the next verse:

1 Th 4:17, Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

And that is this – this event in verse 17 has not happened yet. It did not happen in 70 AD, if so, only the White Throne Judgment remains. From the evidence gathered about the White Throne Judgment all people at mortally alive at that time will be judged along with others from all eras of history except those from the first resurrection and those mentioned in Rev 20:8, 9c as they are called saints and thus names would be written in the Book of Life.

If the first resurrection happened in 70 AD in any form, then anyone living from that point on till now is not living in the places mentioned in Rev 20:8-9, nor have they been surrounded, nor has fire come down from heaven to destroy the wicked for us, would be basically damned.

Peter speaks of a time when Fire will melt the world and Revelations 21 and 22 speak of new heavens and earth. This opens another area of bible prophecy not quite yet in clear focus with no obvious answers on either. I’ll choose to marvel at the Lord and Look up!

We really do not have a clear picture of the rapture event when or how it will happen, except that there will be one. When it will occur and how, remains cloudy. Fact is, it did not happen in 70 AD because all the true Christians would have been removed in 70 AD and will be with the Lord leaving the rest of humanity lost as it is written:

1 Th 4:17, Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

To get around this, one would have to place 1 Th 4 verses for the second resurrection to the white throne period – then that leaves the question – what happened to the first? If 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 happened 70 AD – the real believers are gone and with the Lord – that bodily resurrection has past. All is fulfilled except Rev 20:8, 9, 10 and the second resurrection to the great White Throne, only those mentioned in Rev 8-9 are identified as believers – they are believers being attacked and God sends fire and etc and etc happens.

Now it would make sense if the believers in Rev 20:8-9 would be a saved Jewish remnant left for this last judgment left from the great tribulation period, which saw the Lord, the one whom they pierced and the other believers would be in heaven as Paul wrote of. That would make sense and a whole prophetic litany of scriptures suddenly make sense!
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#35

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:33 pm

Concerning the date of Revelations the following article quoted and attached Brings up very important considerations regarding the date of Revelations as happening after 70 AD and not before.
When Was Revelation Written?
By Pastor Tim Warner,
Copyright © answersinrevelation.org
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/Rev_Date.pdf

There were only two Roman emperors who persecuted Christians on a large scale in the first century, Nero and Domitian. The other Emperors were either indifferent to Christianity, or did not consider it a serious threat to Rome. The first Roman persecution under Nero took place in the decade of the 60s, just before the fall of Jerusalem. Nero was responsible for the deaths of both Peter and Paul in Rome in AD 67, Peter by crucifixion, and Paul by being beheaded.

There is no record of Nero's banishing Christians to Patmos, only his brutality against the Christians of Rome. It was Nero who made a sport of throwing Christians to the lions for the entertainment of the crowds, and who burned many at the stake along the road leading to the Coliseum merely to light the entrance.

After Nero's death Rome left the Christians alone until the rise of Domitian to power in AD 81. Although not as cruel and insane as Nero, Domitian had many Christians killed,the property of Christians confiscated. Scriptures and other Christian books were burned, houses of Christians were destroyed, and many of the most prominent Christians were banished to the prison island of Patmos.

All ancient sources, both Christian and secular, place the banishment of Christians to Patmos during the reign of Domitian (AD81-96). Not a single early source (within 500 years of John) places John's banishment under the reign of Nero, as preterists claim. All modern attempts to date Revelation during Nero's reign rely exclusively on alleged internal evidence, and ignore or seek to undermine the external evidence and testimony of Christians who lived about that time, some of whom had connections to John.

Eusebius the Christian historian, living only two hundred years after Domitian's reign, gathered evidence from both Christian and secular sources that were still extant at the time (some of which are no longer extant today). All of the sources at Eusebius' disposal placed the date of John's Patmos exile during the reign of Domitian. Eusebius' earliest source was Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John. But he also used other unnamed sources both Christian and secular to place the date of the Patmos exile of Christians during Domitian's reign (AD 81-96).

"It is said that in this persecution [under Domitian] the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: 'If it were necessary for his
name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the Revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.' To such a degree, indeed, did the teaching of our faith flourish at that time that even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it. And they, indeed, accurately indicated the time. For they recorded that in the fifteenth year of Domitian Flavia Domitilla, daughter of a sister of Flavius Clement, who at that time was one of the consuls of Rome, was exiled with many others to the island of Pontia in consequence of testimony borne to Christ."2

While Eusebius quoted Irenaeus' statement, notice that he also indicated that other secular histories at his disposal accurately indicated the banishment of Christians to Patmos occurred during Domitian's reign. Eusebius continues:

"Tertullian also has mentioned Domitian in the following words: 'Domitian also, who possessed a share of Nero's cruelty, attempted once to do the same thing that the latter did. But because he had, I suppose, some intelligence, he very soon ceased, and even recalled those whom he had banished.' But after Domitian had reigned fifteen years, and Nerva had succeeded to the empire, the Roman Senate, according to the writers that record the history of those days, voted that Domitian's horrors should be cancelled, and that those who had been unjustly banished should return to their homes and have their property restored to them. It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition.”3

Here again Eusebius mentioned an ancient Christian tradition, but did not quote his sources, that placed John's return from exile on Patmos after Domitian's fifteen year reign, and Nerva's rise to power (AD 96).

There is more early evidence, both explicit and implicit, from other early writers prior to Eusebius. Victorinus, bishop of Pettaw (Italy), agreed with Irenaeus. That Victorinus did not rely on Irenaeus for his information is clear from the fuller details of his statement not referenced by Irenaeus.

"'And He says unto me, Thou must again prophesy to the peoples, and to the tongues, and to the nations, and to many kings.' He says this, because when John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labor of the mines by Caesar Domitian. There, therefore, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God.”4 A little farther, Victorinus again made the same claim.

"The time must be understood in which the written Apocalypse was published, since then reigned Caesar Domitian; but before him had been Titus his brother, and Vespasian, Otho, Vitellius, and Galba.”5

Clement of Alexandria (AD150-220) recounted a story about John shortly after his return from exile, while a very old man.

“And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale, which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant’s death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there toset in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit.”6

The expression “the tyrant's death” can only refer to the death of either Nero or Domitian, the only two “tyrants” that ruled in the first century. Eusebius related that upon the death of Domitian, the Roman senate voted to release those exiled by Domitian. This seems to parallel Clement's statement above. However, the above statement could refer to Nero, except for one fact. In the story that Clement related, he clearly stated that John was a very old and feeble man. John was still relatively young when Nero died.

The story is about a young new convert whom John entrusted to a certain elder to disciple in the Faith. The man had formerly been a thief and robber. Upon John's return from exile on Patmos, he heard that this young man had returned to his old life of crime.Upon hearing this, he sharply rebuked the elder in whose custody he had left him. John immediately set out for the place where this robber and his band were known to lurk. Upon reaching the place, he was assaulted by the band of robbers. He demanded of them to take him to their leader. They brought John to the very man whom John had formerly won to Christ, and left in the custody of the elder. When the young man saw John approaching, he began to run away. John began to run after him, calling, “Why, my
son, dost thou flee from me, thy father, unarmed, old? Son, pity me. Fear not; thou hast still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for thee. If need be, I will willingly endure thy death, as the Lord did death for us. For thee I will surrender my life. Stand, believe; Christ hath sent me.” John then explained to him that forgiveness and restoration was still possible. Clement then stated, "And he, when he heard, first stood, looking down; then threw down his arms, then trembled and wept bitterly. And on the old man approaching, he embraced him, speaking for himself with lamentations as he could, and baptized a second time with tears, concealing only his right hand. The other pledging, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness for himself from the Savior, beseeching and failing on his knees, and kissing his right hand itself, as now purified by repentance, led him back to the church."7

From this account we see that upon John's release from exile on Patmos, he was a feeble old man. John was most likely in his teens or early twenties when Jesus called him. He and his brother James were working with their father as fishermen (Matt. 4:21-22). Assuming John was in his twenties, he would have been in his eighties in AD 96. If he was in his teens when Jesus called him, he would have been in his seventies at the end of Domitian's reign. However, if the “tyrant” referred to by Clement was Nero, then John would have still been fairly young by the time of Nero's death, perhaps in his forties or early fifties. He would hardly be spoken of as a feeble old man by Clement. That John lived until after the reign of Domitian is also shown by Irenaeus' repeated references to his own mentor, Polycarp, being John's disciple.8 Polycarp was born in AD 65, and died in AD 155. He was five years old when Jerusalem was destroyed. He was two years old when Nero died. His being tutored by John therefore must have been at least a decade after the destruction of Jerusalem, and more likely two or three decades afterward.

More than one early writer mentioned the persecution of the Apostles under Nero. They spoke of the martyrdom of Peter and Paul, but made no mention of John's exile during this persecution.

As is obvious to the unbiased reader, the early external evidence that Revelation was written under the reign of Domitian is indisputable...
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#36

Post by puritan lad » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:34 pm

B.W. wrote:Not at all – glad you admit that Preterist re-do Matthew 24:21, 34 for their own purposes.
That's funny. I'll be satisfied to let anyone objectively read these passages and decide who is trying to "redo" them.
B.W. wrote:Let’s go slow because according to the timeline you provided the first Resurrection has already occurred – 70 AD. Let’s see…

Dan 12:1, "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." NASB

Notice how ambiguous bible prophecy is which is fitting as Proverbs 25:2, Proverbs 1:6, and Isaiah 28:9, 10c explains why. Look at Daniel 12:1 quoted above from the NASB anyone notice the word rescue in that verse – wonder if there are any clues elsewhere in the bible that would indicate some sort of rescue/deliverance in keeping with the context of Daniel 12:2, 3c?

Since Daniel’s words refer to a great time of trouble Zep 2:3 comes to mind first: “Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger. ” NKJV
You didn't read the timeline very carefully. The First Resurrection continues to this day. But to answer your question, the first century church did face a time of trouble, and did flee Jerusalem to escape God's wrath. If you are trying support a "pre-trib rapture" then you have failed, because...

1.) Nothing is said here about a rapture, or about God's people being "rescued" from a tribulation, only that they would be hidden from God's anger. You are reading something into the passage that is just not there.

2.) There is clearly a resurrection BEFORE the "rapture" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). You may continue to ignore this fact, but I'm not letting it drop through the cracks of our discussion. Until you provide an explanation, your timeline is a failure.
B.W. wrote:Isaiah 26:20, 21c, "20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain." NKJV

Note Verse one and how it leads into the next two verse quoted above:

Isaiah 26: 21c, "Your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead…"
I think you mislabeled ths second verse. In any case, I don't see where a prophecy against Egypt, Tyre, Babylon, and Moab in 700 B.C. helps establish a pre-trib rapture. Not all "times of trouble" in the OT are the Great Tribulation. Indeed, Israel has had plenty. In any case, Isaiah 26:14 is a problem for your application to John 5:29, as I show below.
B.W. wrote:Dan 12: 2, 3, " And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever." NKJV

This statement in Job is very interesting as well: “For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!” Job 19:25-27

You have verses in the bible prophecy that connect in context in some way with one another which involve the following – rescue/deliverance, being hidden, entering into chambers to escape the Lord’s wrath and one that states that after one dies they’ll see God, immediately which relates to Hebrews 9:27 and Paul’s statement on being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in 1 Co 5:1, 6, 10c which refers to standing before the Lord in some manner.

So the question is when will this happen? Here bible prophecy is ambiguous. In Daniel 12:1 verse, is there a pause meaning firsts comes a rescue or does the rescue happened along with the resurrection of the dead mentioned in Daniel 12:2-3.

Was there a psychical resurrection or not that happened 70 AD?
Daniel 12:2 is a hairy one. There was a physical resurrection at Christ's resurrection (Matthew 27:52-53), but I don't believe that this is the one referred to (the "wicked" are "awakened" as well). But it also doesn't refer to the last days physical resurrection because:

1.) It happened either during or after the reign of Herod the Tetrarch (Daniel 11:40-12:1).
2.) It was a resurrection of "many" (Daniel 12:2), as opposed to "all" (John 5:28-29)
3.) It is shown not to be the last days resurrection by the fact that these resurrected saints shall "turn many to righteousness", which would be impossible after the last day's resurrection (in contrast with the Daniel 12:13 resurrection).

I'll work up a piece on this later, as James Farquharson has an excellent book on Daniel 12.
B.W. wrote:Does Isaiah 26 and Zep quoted verse allude to the people known as the just? Is this what Jesus may have been referring too in John 5:28, 29c two events or one, ignoring the rescue part?
If it does, you will somehow have to reconcile contradictory statements between Isaiah 26:14 and John 5:29.
B.W. wrote:What of Acts 24:15 two events or one?
One. Why would we assume two?
B.W. wrote:Then there is Philippians 3:20, 21c and John 6:40 as well.
Both passages speak of one final resurrection, and John 6 specifically speaks of it as being on the "last day", not before a future tribulation or earthly millennium.
B.W. wrote:If 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 happened 70 AD – the real believers are gone and with the Lord – that bodily resurrection has past.
B.W., I've presented a timeline. You may want to read it a little closer. In any case, if the bodily resurrection takes place before the rapture and the tribulation, then you still have to explain how the First Resurrection can include "... the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands..." (Revelation 20:4). This is a huge dilemma for your view, and I'll keep bringing it up lest you forget about it (or hope that others do).

I'll work on Daniel's 70 weeks in the meantime. There are several online preterist commentaries on this that you may find through any search engine. But I want to tweak some of those a little as they are a little off.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#37

Post by puritan lad » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:09 pm

All modern attempts to date Revelation during Nero's reign rely exclusively on alleged internal evidence
Not true, and even if it were, so what? Sola Scriptura.
and ignore or seek to undermine the external evidence and testimony of Christians who lived about that time, some of whom had connections to John.
Find me one Christian testimony who lived during John's banishment, and I'll consider it. We do have John's own testimony (see below).
Eusebius' earliest source was Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John. But he also used other unnamed sources both Christian and secular to place the date of the Patmos exile of Christians during Domitian's reign (AD 81-96).
How do we know that Irenaeus was Eusebius's earliest source if he did not quote his sources? The first quote mentions a few historical sources, but nothing related to John's banishment in particular.
It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition
I wonder where this ancient tradition came from. Maybe Eusebius' earliest source?
Victorinus did not rely on Irenaeus for his information is clear from the fuller details of his statement not referenced by Irenaeus.
I wonder where Victorinus did get his information? Maybe is extrapolated a little on Irenaeus, the undoubted originator (and a questionable source at best) of the late date theory? Why should he be considered more trustworthy than the Muratorian Canon are the multitude of writings in the Syriac Tradition?

There is nothing here to counter the idea that Irenaeus was the originator of this "tradition", and others either explicitly quote him as such, or else refer to an "ancient tradition" that he is undoubtedly responsible for. One cannot criticize another for "undermin[ing] the external evidence and testimony of Christians who lived about that time" unless they can provide the actual testimony of a Christian who lived at that time. The only one I know of is John himself. When John says that the sixth Roman King (Nero) is on his throne at the time he wrote (Revelation 17:10), and that the Jewish Temple had yet to be destroyed by the Romans (Revelation 11:1-8), why would we take the testimony of anyone writing hundreds of years later, regardless of the unnamed sources?
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#38

Post by 1harpazo » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:28 am

Where's the gap?

Here's the gap.

Dan 9:26-27: 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." NASU

Notice in verse 26 that the Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th year. That happened when Jesus Christ rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and Israel refused to receive Him. Continuing in verse 26 with no change in direction, Daniel says, "and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined." So after the Messiah is cut off, the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. It's the people of the prince who is to come will destroy Jerusalem and the sanctuary. The destruction of the city and the sanctuary happens after the 69th week ends.

Jesus Christ cannot be the prince who makes the firm covenant because He put an end to sacrifice on the same day that He confirmed the new covenant of His blood-not 3 1/2 years later. Another reason that Jesus cannot be the prince is because it is the people of this prince who is to come who will destroy Jerusalem and the sanctuary. The Jews did not destroy Jerusalem and the sanctuary. Since Jesus is not the covenant maker in Daniel 9:27, another prince will be the covenant maker. This prince has yet to make this firm covenant and the 70th Week has yet to start since it begins with a prince making a firm covenant with the many.

Daniel also said that "desolations are determined" after the Messiah is cut off. One desolation occurred in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed. But "desolations" is plural. At least one more desolation is determined. For that to happen, The temple (at least the Holy of Holies (most holy place)) will have to be rebuilt and the sacrificial system will have to be re-instituted to have another desolation. The firm covenant will include a provision for: 1. peace 2. rebuilding and anointing the most holy place (Dan 9:24) and 3. re-instituting the sacrificial system. Three and one half years after the confirmation of the covenant, the prince will cause the transgression that causes horror-the Abomination of Desolation to happen. The identity of this prince is found in Daniel 8:21-26 and 2Thes 2:1-11.

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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#39

Post by B. W. » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:43 pm

My point PL, is this:

Biblical Prophecy interpretations are iffy at best. The ones that are clear cut are those that speak of Jesus and few others. The flaws of some of Dispensationalist doctrine and the majority of Preterist doctrines comes when claims are made that only they know all the factual truths about the end time scriptures. Anyone claiming that they 'know it all' their doctrine should be held with suspension andd tested. Dispensationalist are more adapt at realizing errors and repenting once enlightened by the Bible. Preterist, on the other hand, are NOT ADAPT at admitting error and are, well, plain bigoted regarding their privet interpretation of scripture. I am not a Dispensationalist but since Dispensationalist are flexible, I’ll defend them against Preterist snobbish attacks.

I presented the verses regarding the Rapture in a manner that plainly shows how they relate and let biblical prophecy remain, cloudy, because, at this current date, no one really knows. Only thing that we can be sure of is that a rapture event will occur, that a second regathering of the Jewish people back into the land God swore to them, did happen and still is. The big flaw of Preterism is this: Violation of the following principles about God – Isaiah 46:10c, Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 14:24c, Psalms 33:11, Jeremiah 23:20c, concerning his ability to keep his word.

To whom? The Jewish people – he swore to them the land of Israel and always brings back a remnant to the Land for that purpose, He never utterly totally abandoned them forever or permanently. He only abandoned the apostates and sinners but always brought a remnant back onto the land for no other purpose other than that God cannot lie nor be found unable to keep his promises.

Preterist of all varied camps within Preterism teach some form of replacement theology to get around this, however, in doing so, if they are correct would prove unequivocally implicitly that God is absolutely unable to keep his word and promises. That is the main reason, one must reject this new doctrine. No Preterits can honestly deny that in order for the Jews to be ordained to the world’s guillotine because of everlasting divine abandonment would prove beyond all reasonable doubt that God himself is unable to keep his word or oaths.

For this, is why Preterism must be challenged and patricianers must abandon it because it proves God unable to be true of the following principles about God more than able to keep his word – Isaiah 46:10c, Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 14:24c, Psalms 33:11, Jeremiah 23:20c. Preterist twist the bible and text to conform to presupposition and wrongly apply allegory to view the bible showing that God changed his mind and does not mind if the world would hurry up an exterminate the Jewish people because they are the new Israel – far superior to all. In various acceptable and nice ways, of course.

To be flat out and brutally honest as I can PL, I am not attacking you but charging that all camps of Preterism seeks to prove God unable to keep his promises. First there were gentiles, from the Gentiles God selected a people and made a covenant with them, we now know as the Jewish people. He made specific divine promises and oaths to them that He will honor for no other reason than that He is God enough to keep his word, promises, oaths to a people and therefore worth of praise glory and honor.

From the Jews, they were to shine light to the gentiles in order to bring some back into God’s fold. This was fulfilled in Christ. This does not mean God abandoned the Jewish people, or made a new Israel to replace them. He has a plan for the remnant that returned and their progeny so that they too will call upon his great name and thus God fulfills all oaths and promises. We are unfaithful and God is faithful. Preterism flies in the face of God’s faithfulness. Therefore, I would not want to be a preterist.

Dispensationalism, despite its flaws, its intellectual system promotes honesty and repentance in its diligence to seek out the Lord on the maters of bible prophecy. For that, they should be commended and shown to keep seeking after the truth of God’s words. God is more than capable of changing a honest heart that seeks him rather than one that thinks themselves as having all the answers.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#40

Post by puritan lad » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:12 am

B.W. wrote:Biblical Prophecy interpretations are iffy at best.
Especially if you are a dispensationalist. See below.
B.W. wrote:Dispensationalist are more adapt at realizing errors and repenting once enlightened by the Bible....I am not a Dispensationalist but since Dispensationalist are flexible, I’ll defend them against Preterist snobbish attacks
Let's see, how can I address this nonsense gracefully, and yet with the full force it needs...

With all due respect B.W., I need to ask. Why do you keep doing this? It seems like, in every discussion, you want to take some pretend "middle ground", and then act as if you and the position that you are defending have obtained some moral high ground that the "dogmatic" or "snobbish" opposition lacks. This is not a logical argument for Dispensationalism as being objectively true, but is logical fallacy (See Appeal to Pity).

But your pretend neutrality doesn't fly. You are a Dispenationalist if the term has any meaning at all. You still believe that fleshly Israel has a unique covenant with God, that there will be a pre-trib rapture, a future tribulation, an earthly millennium, and that the majority of Revelation has yet to happen. You may object to the label (as to why so many on this board are afraid of being called what they are, i don't know), but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

As far as being "more adapt at realizing errors and repenting", I would say that, first of all, dispensationalists have had lots of practice. They've been wrong on just about everything they've ever said regarding the end times, and yet still expect to be taken seriously. For example, you and GMan are having a long back and forth about 1948 being a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Not only is this begging the question, but builds it's interpretative method on a framework with a long and failed track record. Do we really need reminding of the 1982 Jupiter Effect, the 1988 Fig Tree Generation, the Gog and Magog of the Cold War (Soviet Union), the 1996 Church Age End based upon Daniel, the Y2K Crisis, etc.? Dispensationalism is forced (reluctantly and silently) to totally scrap everything they've written in the past 10 years and rewrite it. But they certainly aren't doing any "repenting". Once proven to be absolutely wrong, they hardly bat an eye. They simply rework their system out of necessity, preparing for the next round of money-making books full of false prophecy. I don't see Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, or Grant Jeffrey refunding the money they made off of their pop-prophecy fiction novels that failed to come to pass. Where is the repenting? These people are just plain shameless.

As far as "snobbish attacks", is it really necessary to direct you to what our modern false prophets have written about preterism? How about Ed Hinson labeling Preterists as The New Last Days Scoffers. (If you can find anything remotely biblical or logical in this article, let me know.) There are many other attacks I could point to, but I'll digress for now. The point is that you are not on some higher moral ground than those who disagree with you. As for the "snobbish attacks" upon the false prophets of dispensationalism, you won't consider the possibility that, 1.) They are brought upon themselves, and 2.) They are deserved. In that sense, I'll stand with Elijah. That which is ridiculous deserves to be ridiculed.
B.W. wrote:The big flaw of Preterism is this: Violation of the following principles about God – Isaiah 46:10c, Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 14:24c, Psalms 33:11, Jeremiah 23:20c, concerning his ability to keep his word....To be flat out and brutally honest as I can PL, I am not attacking you but charging that all camps of Preterism seeks to prove God unable to keep his promises
Argumentum ad Circulum. Preterist hold that God did keep his word, as the New Testament testifies to over and over again. In fact, it is Dispensationalist who deny that God kept His Word by fulfilling prophecies in the time frame in which He said he would. In order for this argument to stand firm, you will have to exhibit what part of God's Word that preterist suggest that God didn't keep.

If you really want to expose the alledged flaws that you see in Preterism, you would do well to stick with Scriptural arguments. Pretending middle ground and appeals to pity won't cut it.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#41

Post by B. W. » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:19 am

There is something that not many people comprehend or see when reading biblical prophecy and that is the mark of God’s finger print on matters. It is usually revealed in threes. In other word, one event described, happening three different times in history is a clear finger print form God. That is only something God can do - no one else. For times sake, I am going to make a general statement concerning Preterist, noting that not all Preterist think linear.

When Preterist read the bible, it is linear, in the box, and no offense intended to Preterist but they, miss this truth about God’s threefold witness. This comes about regarding the 70 AD destruction of the Temple. After it was destroyed, nothing was placed on the temple mount until 132 AD which lead to the last Jewish war when approx 580,000 Jewish men were killed and the Jews scattered into the world. That was the Temple Jupiter. That would be one of the times to flee for the hills in 135 AD if you were a Christian back then pondering the words Jesus spoke.

From the quote below, please note number 4 regarding the "abomination of desolation."
A. The sequence from Herod’s Temple, to Temple of Jupiter, to Dome of the Rock:

1-From 2 Macc 6, we learn that in 167 BC, Antiochus IV Epiphanes attacked Jerusalem setting up a temple to Jupiter and offering pig sacrifices. He ordered the Jews to worship idols and stop keeping the Sabbath and practicing circumcision. A major theme in 2 Macc is that the Jews triumph over Antiochus in the end and regain control of the temple again.

2-After Titus destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, Hadrian became Caesar in 117 - 138 AD. Hadrian, revisits the actions of he predecessor Antiochus IV Epiphanes and sets up a Temple of Jupiter on the Temple mount, ordering circumcision to cease and expelling the Jews from Jerusalem altogether. He not only made himself the object of worship in this temple, but made Jerusalem the capital city of the Roman world for the worship of Jupiter. He also built an temple to Jupiter in Baalbek, Lebanon that is still standing today. Just as Hitler deceived British Prime Minister Chamberlain in 1938 AD that there would be "peace in our time", so too Hadrian deceived the Jews to believe that he was peacefully rebuilding the Jewish Temple, when in fact he was constructing the world headquarters "Temple of Jupiter". As construction began, the Jews probably even helped in thankfulness and praise to Hadrian. But when the Jews finally learned of Hadrian’s true intent, as did England learn of Hitler’s, they rebelled and a huge war broke out in 132 AD where 85 major Jewish towns were destroyed and 580,000 Jewish men were killed. The false promises of peace of Hadrian and Hitler both resulted in major holocausts against the Jews. Israel came to the promised land with about 600,000 men and they were finally expelled from the land by having about 600,000 men killed by Hadrian. The Temple of Jupiter was completed on the temple mount in 135 AD and was the most important (Jupiter Capitolinus) "Temple to Jupiter" in the world. While the Jews of Hadrian’s time may have been looking for the story of 2 Maccabees conclude with a similar victory for the Jews, Hadrian was likely reminded of the same 2 Macc. text to make sure the ending was different.

4-Dan 9:27; 11:31; Matt 24:15; Luke 21:20 are specific prophecies that the "abomination of desolation that will make sacrifice cease" in the Jewish temple which was fully fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. But there were two other shadow or anti-typical fulfillments of these same prophecies. One was in 167 BC with Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the other was in 117 AD with the rise of Hadrian to power. Whereas Antiochus merely offered sacrifices to Jupiter in the Jewish Temple, Hadrian built the largest temples of Jupiter in the world in place of the Jewish temple. We know that Hadrian wanted to make himself the object of worship in his Temple to Jupiter in Jerusalem and he set up a statue of himself riding a horse on the Temple mount at the El-Kas fountain. Tuvia Sagiv believes that Hadrian, in the ultimate act of arrogance and insult to the Jews, placed this horse statue in the precise location of where the Holy of Holies stood from the Jewish temple. Jesus words in Matthew 24:15 echo, "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)."

5-The Temple of Jupiter stood from 135 AD, until the time of Hadrian’s later successor Constantine in 325 AD. Constantine "did right in the sight of God" and was as anti-pagan as any of the most righteous Jewish Kings of the Old Testament. He utterly destroyed Hadrian’s Temple of Jupiter on the temple mount. The temple of Jupiter on the temple mount, lay in ruins for almost 350 years until the Muslims arrived, except for a unsuccessful attempt by the Jews to rebuilt the temple around 400 AD.

6-Eusebius 325 AD: When Constantine came upon the temple mount in Jerusalem, he destroyed the temple of Jupiter that had been built in 135 AD by Hadrian. In building the "Church of the Holy Sepulchre" in 325 AD, Eusebius records how Constantine even removed the soil on the site and dumped it far away. Hadrian had built a temple to Venus on the site and Constantine destroyed and removed every trace of this pagan idolatry. It seems unlikely that Constantine would remove even the soil from the site of the "Church of the Holy Sepulchre" where Hadrian had built a temple to Venus, but leave Hadrian’s statues on the temple mount. Yet in 400 AD, Jerome says that the statue of Hadrian riding a horse was still standing on the very place of the Jewish Temple. Eusebius wrote in 325 AD: "How Constantine Commanded the Materials of the Idol Temple, and the Soil Itself, to Be Removed at a Distance: Nor did the emperor’s zeal stop here; but he gave further orders that the materials of what was thus destroyed, both stone and timber, should be removed and thrown as far from the spot as possible; and this command also was speedily executed. The emperor, however, was not satisfied with having proceeded thus far: once more, fired with holy ardor, he directed that the ground itself should be dug up to a considerable depth, and the soil which had been polluted by the foul impurities of demon worship transported to a far distant place." (Eusebius , The Life of the Blessed Emperor Constantine, book 3, ch 27) Above Article quotes from this Link

Note I cannot vouch for this website or its content – it is used simple as a reference as it points out things rather uniquely.
Let's get down to it...

...Regarding the "abomination of desolation event" – this phrase can refer to more than one verifiable event happening again years and multiplied years later:

One Happened in 167 BC – the Antiochus IV Epiphanes incident.

The Second actually occurred in 132 AD when, as the article states, “Hadrian built the largest temples of Jupiter in the world in place of the Jewish temple.”

So you have twice this event occurred… One happened after the 1st regathering of the Jews and the 2nd ended with the final most bloody war against the Jews resulting in their dispersal into the nations just as God said in Deut 25:49, 50, 52, 62, 64, 65, 66, 68c, Deut 29:25, 26, 28, 29c, Deut 30:1, 2, 3, 4, 5c. These verses have happened to the Jewish people how many times so far? Now note Isaiah 11:11c. Has this occurred, historically and verifiable with the Jewish people or not?

The abomination that makes desolate mentioned in Matthew 24:15 can refer to more than one event! In this case, there is no real time frame from Matthew 24:14 to verse 15. Even Daniel’s chapters 9, 11, and 12 can refer to three distinct times, thus making a definite finger print for God’s Judgment to befall. Note the principle from Deut 17:6, Deut 19:15c, Deut 30:19c of a threefold witness needed to issue forth judgment.

In 325 AD Constantine destroyed the135 AD temple of Jupiter and it lay in ruins until the Muslims came along later and built what? Something very blasphemous that portrays world domination by a certain existing and ascending system which glorifies warfare, submission, oppression, fear, intimidation, astonishment, etc…

Daniel’s prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation can be referring to three different events to get people to focus that the abomination of desolation as a political/religious system that matches the intent of the statute is Daniel’s dream: The Golden Head dream of world domination, ruled by one person, alongside a ruling oligarchy of elites who sets themselves up as gods to the populace that will be ruled by their iron law in order to make the statute walk according to the image they want to pattern a perfect world after.

I am not a dispensationalist – I think out of the box. The threefold witness God makes known before passing sentence means something very profoundly personally to me. I see it in the bible all over the place.

The militant Preterist, who just for the sake of desiring to be right above all else, think in linear terms reading prophecy, failing to see a grand design of God’s infinite intelligence at work! Militant Dispensationalists, to a degree, do the same, but are more willing to repent from such errors.

So Preterist and Dispensationalists have you consider the threefold finger print God leaves on a matter of specific judgment in your studies? All I can suggest to you is this, what if I am right? If I am wrong then who cares? Look at the facts...

The Jews are back in their own Land as a nation – twice now and midst the 2nd scattering another more diabolical abomination of desolation on the temple mount has be set up and been there how many years so far (1,320 years)?

Note when the first temple was sacked, destroyed, burned to ruin, and then the Jews were led for 70 years captivity. The Jewish people returned - regathered back into the land. Midst this first regathering, later, another Antiochus IV Epiphanes did his desecration of the temple mount (abomination of desolation)?

Similar to before, during 70 AD, the Temple again was again laid to waste. This eventually lead to the fulfillment of the 2nd total scattering of the Jewish people in 135 AD because another placed a physical abomination of desolation on the temple mount. This was destroyed in 325 AD and only ruins remained. But notice in the midst of the 2nd scattering of the Jewish people another abomination of desolation has been set up on the temple mount before the 2nd regathering even commenced approx 1,257 years later for the Jewish people leading to nationhood in 1948.

Do you see a pattern as well as intent of those who in the past built these? What were their dreams and goals for the world? If you but open your eyes – who knows what you will see form God’s word within the bible.

Please note, I am placing my name here not to make myself out as some sort of grand authority but rather to stake what I say as truth, a truth that you’ll have to decide on and investigate further. I cannot force you or anyone to think a certain way, all I can do is give you enough food for thought and see how hungry you are for the Lord. The rest is up to you…and God.

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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#42

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:24 am

Those are good points B.W.

It is true that preterism, in general, takes a one to one correlation of prophecy to observable nearterm fulfillments and excludes the possibility that there is an additional meaning or fulfillment present.

The form isn't exactly the same but a similar example of this that I find many Preterists accept is Old Testament "Types" where above and beyond the immediate context and application of a reported event or appearance of a heavenly messenger Jesus Christ is seen as making an Old Testament appearance.

Further, when you look to the Jewish Rabbinical traditions before, during and after the time of Christ, it's pretty evident that that methods of understanding Scripture, even within the so-called hard line orthodox schools didn't employ a western, greek philosophical world view or methodology to draw very limited conclusions from Scripture. Even Christ's use of many OT passages wouldn't fit into the narrow scope of interpretation and hermeneutical methods that Preterism and other approaches today conservatively require.

While I don't think that that argues for license that "anything goes" by any means, I think it does make a case that Scripture more often than not, even in so-called historical narratives carries with it illustrative or other spiritual meanings and applications that are entirely appropriate to look for and look to.

I think that aligns with what you're saying here although I don't know that I'd make a case that there are necessarily consistent patterns of 3 present in quite the manner that you do. I think you have to look at each passage and event on it's own merits and not make an assumption as to how many levels of meaning there possibly are present.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#43

Post by 1harpazo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:53 pm

puritan lad wrote: · If 1 Thess. 4:17 is the pre-trib rapture, then that means that 1 Thess. 4:16 is a pre-trib resurrection, correct? Yet the “First Resurrection” of Revelation 20:4-5 includes “the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.” Aren’t these supposed to be the tribulation saints? How can they have a part in the first resurrection if the first resurrection takes place before the tribulation even starts?
#1. The seven year period is not the "Tribulation/Great Tribulation". The seven year period is the 70th week of Daniel. The "Tribulation" and "Great Tribulation" are periods of time inside of the 70th week. Jesus said that the great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect. If the 70th week is the great tribulation, then it would be cut short and not be a full seven years.

#2. Pre-Trib rapture believers believe that the entire 7-year period is God's judgment on the ungodly. That is not correct. Notice in Rev. 6:9,10, that the martyrs under the altar in heaven recognize that God's judgment has not started yet: 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. NASU. This is the 5th seal which is broken inside the 70th week.

#3. Pre-Trib rapture believers believe that people will come to faith in Jesus Christ during the 7-year judgment of God on the ungodly. This is without the Holy Spirit and/or the Church present. Once God begins His judgment, those being judged are not saved-they are judged. Look at Noah. When the rain (God's judgment) began to fall, nobody was saved (outside the ark, of course). Look at Lot. As soon as Lot and his family departed Sodom, the fire and brimstone (God's judgment) rained down on Sodom and nobody was saved in the city. Jesus used these two examples of how it would be when He returns (Luke 17:26,27,28,29,30). If God's judgment begins at the start of the 70th week then nobody on earth will be saved.

So how do the saints in 1Thes 4:16,17 and the saints in Rev. 20:4,5 all make it in the first resurrection? That's easy. The rapture is a pre-wrath rapture. Jesus returns at some point inside the 70th week (probably shortly after the Abomination of Desolation because He's really miffed at the anti-christ for causing the transgression that causes horror) and raptures all of the dead and the living in Christ at once and immediately begins to administer Isaiah 61:2b (that part about vengeance) on all the ungodly that are left after the rapture.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#44

Post by Gman » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:43 pm

B. W. wrote:The Jews are back in their own Land as a nation – twice now and midst the 2nd scattering another more diabolical abomination of desolation on the temple mount has be set up and been there how many years so far (1,320 years)?
On top of that how can we factor in how the Jews restored their land against all odds? In the 1948 war, Israel practically had no military AND within 60 years become one of the most powerful nations in the world??

Sorry... There is something else going on here. And it isn't chance either...
B. W. wrote:Do you see a pattern as well as intent of those who in the past built these? What were their dreams and goals for the world? If you but open your eyes – who knows what you will see form God’s word within the bible.

Please note, I am placing my name here not to make myself out as some sort of grand authority but rather to stake what I say as truth, a truth that you’ll have to decide on and investigate further. I cannot force you or anyone to think a certain way, all I can do is give you enough food for thought and see how hungry you are for the Lord. The rest is up to you…and God.
I don't claim to know everything either... But I certainly won't write off huge volumes of scripture because I don't understand it. That's being petty..,.

Over the years I have found I was wrong in certain areas of my theology. I've learned to be careful with thus stuff especially when it get's down to prophecy... I for one will not take any chances on it. y[-(
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#45

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:28 am

Gman wrote:...On top of that how can we factor in how the Jews restored their land against all odds? In the 1948 war, Israel practically had no military AND within 60 years become one of the most powerful nations in the world??

Sorry... There is something else going on here. And it isn't chance either...
I've been 4 hours in a dentist chair today getting my front teeth repaired after last week’s fall and haven’t responded much due to this. I’ll post more later as I recover. For now, I’ll make two quick points and then go retire for the night:


First point – God’s Sovereignty:

What of Isaiah 41:2, 3, 4 in how God deals with nations and (Isaiah 45:1) who makes nations rise and fall, who even sparrows cannot fall to the ground apart from the Father's will (Mat 10:29), yet, when come the Jewish people in the land of Israel, today after close 1900 years scattered into the nations, regathered there a second time – all a random chance? Hmmmm???? Something does not line up with what the scriptures teaches on the Sovereignty of God…


Second Point Regarding Daniels interpretation:

Take for example, how some people interpret Daniels interpretation of the Statue’s four metals as symbolizing (Dan 2:31-45) four empires: Babylon (Gold), Media-Persia (Silver), Greece (under Alexander- Brass), and Rome (Iron), then the feet and toes… This is fine but is that all that is too this? Linear intellectualizing and that’s it, have the answer all tidy in a box?

Just looking at this in a linear intellectual fashion is akin to examining 4 separate flecks of paint upon an immense canvas. Such intent gazing, looks at other individual flecks of paints then busies itself with matching colors to form doctrine. After that, the investigators leave the room thinking they have it all figured out, logging their observations in a tidy locked box; but never once do they step back and look at the whole master piece as one huge picture painted by God. That they miss. They see only individual specks of paint, but the whole picture – not seen.

So - what made the image Daniel saw (Dan 2:31) so splendid, extraordinary? This was Nebuchadnezzar’s dream after all portraying his world view. God despises Idol Images and calls them abominations (Isa 41:24). This image is an abomination in God’s sight. What does it represent – in each of these metals – what was each empire’s main goal?

Then there is a fifth empire described in the feet and toes… Before it can walk bearing the whole mass of the golden headed image Christ returns. This did not happen in 70 AD. Nor were 10 Kings around in 70 AD as described in Dan 7:24c – Dan 2:42c in 70 AD. All this is cloudy, a mystery. The beginnings can be identified like flecks of paint – but the hard questions, few dare ask – what were the motives of the empires? This takes time to step back and look at the whole picture. Way back then that some sort of world domination was hatched which spread – the dream still lives, even today. Think…that is all I can ask…

An abomination that makes desolation indeed describes the wake of ruin, destruction, war, slavery, murder, intrigue, fear, chaos, hardship, terror, tyranny, etc, that results in those guided by this idol all through the ages. Hmmm… wars and rumors of wars, natural disasters…
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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