Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#46

Post by 1harpazo » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:17 am

puritan lad wrote:
B.W. wrote:If the church is to rule during the 1000 year, ages, or periods of time and if that time is now as you believe it is. Then is it an Imperial Rule thru the Church as Kings and Priest that is needed to set the stage for Christ’s physical return so that then the Church hands it all to him? That is what I mean.
True. We (Postmillennialists) believe that the world will more or less Christianized prior to Christ's return, with the gospel.
1harpazo wrote:
puritan lad wrote:
"The Lord is at hand, the coming of the Lord is near"-well did He come back?

Read Matthew 16:27-28 and answer that. It is quite clear that he came in some way to judge Israel. The Scriptures are quite clear on that.
Was that coming the "Transfiguration" in the next verse? The apostles never spoke of this "convenient" interpretation. If fact they only spoke of Jesus coming once in the last days. The apostles knew of only one time (Matt. 24:3). Jesus spoke of only one (John 14:3). Paul taught the Corinthians of only one (1Cor. 15:23). He taught the Thessalonians of only one (1Thes. 5:23) and Timothy of only one (1Tim 6:14). Titus knew of only one (Titus 2:13). John knew of only one (1John 2:28). Jude and Enoch knew of only one (Jude 14, 15).
puritan lad wrote:
As for the Transfiguration, I not aware of any reward given then. In any case, even you have to acknowledge that Christ came in His kingdom in the First Century in some form or other.
puritan lad, in one post you said that Jesus has yet to return (the top quote). In another, you said that Jesus came in the first century (the other two quotes) in some form or other to judge Israel and in His kingdom. How can you have it both ways-Jesus already came (in the first century) and He is yet to come? Where in the Scriptures does it argue for His return "in some form or other"? Where in the Scriptures does it argue for a second departure so that Jesus can return in the future (a third advent)? Is this preterist doctrine?

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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#47

Post by puritan lad » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:36 am

Christ's "coming in the clouds" was not a literal Advent, and clearly happened in the First Century (see Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:30-34). In fact, God's "cloud coming" judgments happen throughout the Bible - See Isaiah's Prophecy against Egypt in 730 BC (Isaiah 19:1) and Jeremiah's Prophecy against Jerusalem in 620 BC (Jeremiah 4:13). The Second Advent is a different scenario altogether, when he comes is the same manner in which he left (Acts 1:11), and history comes to an end (2 Peter 3:10).
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#48

Post by 1harpazo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:50 am

Are the three Matthew passages the same event?

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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#49

Post by puritan lad » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:42 pm

1harpazo wrote:Are the three Matthew passages the same event?
Yes. They spoke of the very same "coming" that Jesus warned of in the parable of the wicked vinedressers.

"When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:40-45)
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#50

Post by B. W. » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:25 pm

puritan lad wrote:
B.W. wrote:If the church is to rule during the 1000 year, ages, or periods of time and if that time is now as you believe it is. Then is it an Imperial Rule thru the Church as Kings and Priest that is needed to set the stage for Christ’s physical return so that then the Church hands it all to him? That is what I mean.
True. We (Postmillennialists) believe that the world will more or less Christianized prior to Christ's return, with the gospel.
From your answer, then I gather that Preterism holds to an adaptation of Imperial Church Theology. Hyper Imperial Church Theology view is that Salvation comes only thru the Church rather than Christ. Accordng to that ideology, a person had to belong to a particular Church to be really saved. I do not think you actually believe this but are you aware that you are holding on to a watered down version of Imperial Church theology? Do you really believe the church will hand over the Kingdom to Christ when He comes?
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#51

Post by 1harpazo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:38 pm

puritan lad wrote:
1harpazo wrote:Are the three Matthew passages the same event?
Yes. They spoke of the very same "coming" that Jesus warned of in the parable of the wicked vinedressers.

"When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:40-45)
Was this prophecy fulfilled in the first century like the others?

edit:
puritan lad wrote:Christ's "coming in the clouds" was not a literal Advent, and clearly happened in the First Century (see Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:30-34). In fact, God's "cloud coming" judgments happen throughout the Bible - See Isaiah's Prophecy against Egypt in 730 BC (Isaiah 19:1) and Jeremiah's Prophecy against Jerusalem in 620 BC (Jeremiah 4:13). The Second Advent is a different scenario altogether, when he comes is the same manner in which he left (Acts 1:11), and history comes to an end (2 Peter 3:10).
Was Matt 24:30-34 the answer to the disciples' questions in Matt 24:3? If it was, then what "age" ended?

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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#52

Post by 1harpazo » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:54 am

What "age" ended?

Matt 24:3

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
NASU

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days . 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
NASU

The disciples asked Jesus two questions. 1. "What will be is the sign of Your coming?" and 2. "What will be the sign of the end of the age?"

Jesus answered those questions in reverse order. He said that the sign of the end of the age would come first and then the sign of His coming would be next. The sign of the end of the age would be immediately after the tribulation of those days and that it would be "THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." Jesus was quoting the prophet Joel in Joel 2:31. This is the same event described in Rev. 6:12,13. The end of the age will occur when the sun and the moon is darkened at the same time. That means that the entire earth will be dark at the same time.

The sign of Jesus coming again is His glory will light up the entire earth all at once. No mistaking these two signs. They come together.

If Matt 24:30,31 happened in the first century and is now history, then the end of the age also occurred in the first century and is now history. So I ask, "What age ended?"

If the end of the age has NOT occurred, then neither has the coming of the Son of Man. If Matt 24:29,30,31 has not been fulfilled, then neither has Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27,28.
puritan lad wrote:
1harpazo wrote:Are the three Matthew passages the same event?
Yes. They spoke of the very same "coming" that Jesus warned of in the parable of the wicked vinedressers.

"When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:40-45)

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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#53

Post by puritan lad » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:48 am

Yes. That age did end in 70 AD.
If the end of the age has NOT occurred, then neither has the coming of the Son of Man. If Matt 24:29,30,31 has not been fulfilled, then neither has Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27,28.
Then some is Jesus' audience must still be alive, and the apostles are still going through the cities of Israel? Interesting.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#54

Post by 1harpazo » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:38 pm

puritan lad wrote:Yes. That age did end in 70 AD.
If the end of the age has NOT occurred, then neither has the coming of the Son of Man. If Matt 24:29,30,31 has not been fulfilled, then neither has Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27,28.
Then some is Jesus' audience must still be alive, and the apostles are still going through the cities of Israel? Interesting.
In light of Matt 10:23, what's your take on Matt 24:14: "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."? The end (Matt 24:6,13) refers the end of the age and the end comes before the coming of the Son of Man.

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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#55

Post by puritan lad » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:35 pm

1harpazo wrote:
puritan lad wrote:Yes. That age did end in 70 AD.
If the end of the age has NOT occurred, then neither has the coming of the Son of Man. If Matt 24:29,30,31 has not been fulfilled, then neither has Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27,28.
Then some is Jesus' audience must still be alive, and the apostles are still going through the cities of Israel? Interesting.
In light of Matt 10:23, what's your take on Matt 24:14: "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."? The end (Matt 24:6,13) refers the end of the age and the end comes before the coming of the Son of Man.
Fulfilled:

"but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--" (Romans 16:26)
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#56

Post by B. W. » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:52 am

1harpazo wrote:
puritan lad wrote:
"The Lord is at hand, the coming of the Lord is near"- well did He come back?

Read Matthew 16:27-28 and answer that. It is quite clear that he came in some way to judge Israel. The Scriptures are quite clear on that.
Was that coming the "Transfiguration" in the next verse? The apostles never spoke of this "convenient" interpretation. If fact they only spoke of Jesus coming once in the last days. The apostles knew of only one time (Matt. 24:3). Jesus spoke of only one (John 14:3). Paul taught the Corinthians of only one (1Cor. 15:23). He taught the Thessalonians of only one (1Thes. 5:23) and Timothy of only one (1Tim 6:14). Titus knew of only one (Titus 2:13). John knew of only one (1John 2:28). Jude and Enoch knew of only one (Jude 14, 15).
puritan lad wrote:As for the Transfiguration, I not aware of any reward given then. In any case, even you have to acknowledge that Christ came in His kingdom in the First Century in some form or other.
1harpazo wrote:puritan lad, in one post you said that Jesus has yet to return (the top quote). In another, you said that Jesus came in the first century (the other two quotes) in some form or other to judge Israel and in His kingdom. How can you have it both ways-Jesus already came (in the first century) and He is yet to come? Where in the Scriptures does it argue for His return "in some form or other"? Where in the Scriptures does it argue for a second departure so that Jesus can return in the future (a third advent)? Is this preterist doctrine?
Good questions 1harpazo, I would add in...

Looking at Matthew 24:29-31c, if these events all happened in 70 AD...

Matthew 24:29, 30, 31c,"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
." NKJV

Then verse 31 happened and, well therefore, PL, preterist and every other Christian has been left behind. Also, the events as described in verse 29 and 30 would have been recorded worldwide at that time. The Chinese, nor other nations make no mention of "the sun darkened, and the moon not giving its light; the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken" during that time period.

In fact, only in Rev 21:23 mentions when such a time occurred and we are not living in that period, yet...

Again, what is clear from the bible is that an escape is promised, an escape that is more profound than the method mentioned in Luke 21:21, which by the way can be applied three times to anyone living in that particular geographic location. However the escape mentioned in the bible by the Lord’s hand is far different:

Isaiah 26:19, 20, 21c, "Your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain."

Zep 2:3, "Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger."

Zep 3:8, "Therefore wait for Me," says the LORD, "Until the day I rise up for plunder; My determination is to gather the nations To My assembly of kingdoms, To pour on them My indignation, All My fierce anger; All the earth shall be devoured With the fire of My jealousy..."

Dan 12:1, "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Everyone who is found written in the book. .."NASB and NKJV


By his own hand and not by our own psychical running...

The timing of these verses can support a pre-trib rapture or even a mid-trib one maybe even a post-trib one as well too. Prophecy, as I stated before is cloudy, veiled, with enough mystery to cause us to seek out its meanings from the Lord himself…

The point is, there is mentioned an act of hiding that only the Lord can do and this event has not happened yet as it involves some sort of tranfromation leading to being with the Lord forever..

1 Th 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18c, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

Anyone living at the time Jesus spoke and when Paul wrote, who have died are now with the Lord and will see the same events as those who are alive when these events occur. Therefore again, the generation spoken too by Jesus as Matthew and Luke recorded can apply to all at any point in history – still stands.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#57

Post by puritan lad » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:30 am

B.W.,

Do you have any understanding of preterism at all? Again, you need to study the issue before railing against it.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#58

Post by jlay » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:02 pm

Matthew 24:29, 30, 31c,"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." NKJV

Then verse 31 happened and, well therefore, PL, preterist and every other Christian has been left behind. Also, the events as described in verse 29 and 30 would have been recorded worldwide at that time. The Chinese, nor other nations make no mention of "the sun darkened, and the moon not giving its light; the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken" during that time period.
Alright. So help him out. That seems like a reasonable question.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#59

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:31 pm

puritan lad wrote:B.W.,

Do you have any understanding of preterism at all? Again, you need to study the issue before railing against it.
Why not address the issues then instead of making it ad hominem?
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#60

Post by B. W. » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:13 am

puritan lad wrote:
1harpazo wrote:
puritan lad wrote:Yes. That age did end in 70 AD.
If the end of the age has NOT occurred, then neither has the coming of the Son of Man. If Matt 24:29,30,31 has not been fulfilled, then neither has Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27,28.
Then some is Jesus' audience must still be alive, and the apostles are still going through the cities of Israel? Interesting.
In light of Matt 10:23, what's your take on Matt 24:14: "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."? The end (Matt 24:6,13) refers the end of the age and the end comes before the coming of the Son of Man.
Fulfilled:

"but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--" (Romans 16:26)
Please note the answer Fulfilled also refers to 1harpazo’s question:
1harpazo wrote:If the end of the age has NOT occurred, then neither has the coming of the Son of Man. If Matt 24:29,30,31 has not been fulfilled, then neither has Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27,28.
Matt 24:29,30,31 - likewise accord to the answer provided as ‘Fulfilled’ as so stated regarding Matt 24:29,30,31c...

Then I responded:
B. W. wrote:Matthew 24:29, 30, 31c,"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." NKJV

Then verse 31 happened and, well therefore, PL, preterist and every other Christian has been left behind. Also, the events as described in verse 29 and 30 would have been recorded worldwide at that time. The Chinese, nor other nations make no mention of "the sun darkened, and the moon not giving its light; the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken" during that time period.
Jlay then asks...
jlay wrote:Alright. So help him out. That seems like a reasonable question.
So here are the questions again:

If Matt 24:29,30,31 was fulfilled in 70 AD, then where is the empirical data worldwide for such event including the data of morning / seeing described in verse 30 and why does the sun and moon, and stars still remain aloft if in 70 AD they fell and moon will not give its light (verse 29)?

These are reasonable questions…as Jlay pointed out… in light of answer Fulfilled leading to the Romans 16 quote...


Next: Regarding Romans 16:26 as a proof text for Preterism

Let us not forget the verses around the text (Romans 16:25, 26, 27c). As well as also noting the original word order of the context of how the doxology reads:

"25 Now to the one being able establish you according to the good news of me and the proclamation of Jesus Christ according (the) Revelation of (the) mystery in times eternal having been kept secret

26 Manifested but now and through prophetic-scriptures according to a command of the Eternal Father for obedience of faith to all the gentiles known having been (having been known)

27 only wise to God through Jesus Christ.
" Romans 16:25-27 –
Quoted From Noveum Testamentum 27 - The New Greek New Testament

Romans 16:25-27 from the LITV reads: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the proclaiming of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal times, 26 but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations; 27 to the only wise God through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever. Amen." LITV

The LITV captures the Greek pretty well the meaning of the text as: 'commandment of the everlasting God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations'

…not as implying: 'commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations...'

See the difference?

Add to that - gentiles 'having been known' implies more with predestination mentioned in Romans 8:29, 30c than a proof text for Preterism.

Look at the Noveum Testamentum 27 again and the word order if you still do not get it:

"Now to the one being able establish you according to the good news of me and the proclamation of Jesus Christ according (the) Revelation of (the) mystery in times eternal having been kept secret Manifested but now and through prophetic-scriptures according to a command of the Eternal Father for obedience of faith to all the gentiles known having been (having been known) (to) only wise God through Jesus Christ." Romans 16:25-27 - NT 27

Conclusion: Romans 16:26 is a poor proof text for Preterism but a good one for biblically based predestination of Romans 8:29-30c.
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P.S. - You know, there was a full moon not too long ago, anyone else seen the moon lately - does the moon still give light? Again Rev 21:23c gives clear clue to when such event occurs mentioned in Matt 24:29 (and that verse has not happened yet)
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