Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#1

Post by puritan lad » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:54 pm

Separate from the flaws that have been exhibited in this system as whole in another thread, Dispensationalism has some endtimes difficulties as well:

· Where does the Bible say that Jesus will reign “on earth” for 1,000 years? Why is the “1,000 year reign” mentioned only in Revelation 20, the most “symbolic” book in the Bible?

· Since we “literal” interpretations, why not start with the time frame references? What does “shortly” mean (Revelation 1:1)? How about “near” (Revelation 1:3)? How about “about to” (Revelation 3:10)? What about “this generation” (Matthew 24:34)?

· Why were the First Century Churches of Asia concerned with 21st Century events? Why would Jesus promise to deliver the First Century Church of Philadelphia from events that none of them would ever live to see (Revelation 3:10)?

· How many resurrections will there be, and when will they take place? Why does Jesus have the righteous and the wicked being resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29)? Why did Jesus say that the righteous would be resurrected “on the last day” (John 6:39-44)? What happened to that 1,007 year period after that?

· If 1 Thess. 4:17 is the pre-trib rapture, then that means that 1 Thess. 4:16 is a pre-trib resurrection, correct? Yet the “First Resurrection” of Revelation 20:4-5 includes “the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.” Aren’t these supposed to be the tribulation saints? How can they have a part in the first resurrection if the first resurrection takes place before the tribulation even starts?

· Where does the Bible mention a Pre-Trib Rapture? How about a third coming of Christ? How about a 7 year tribulation period?

· Where does the Bible mention a third Jewish Temple?

· If premillennialism is correct, then why does Ezekiel mention animal sacrifices after the “millennium” (after Gog and Magog – Ezekiel 45:18-25)? What is the purpose of these sacrifices? Ezekiel says that they will be "to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel" (Ezekiel 45:17). Hasn't the work of Christ already done that?

· Is Matthew 16:28 the literal Second Advent, or should we understand it as something else? If the former, then are some of Jesus’ listeners still alive?

· In Isaiah 19:1, did Jehovah literal ride into Egypt on a cloud?

· Why did Peter say that Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28-32) saw it’s fulfillment on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21)?

· Where does the 2,000 gap in Daniel’s 70 week prophecy come from (Daniel 9:24-27)?

· What kind of chain will be used to bind the angel Satan (Revelation 20:1-3)?
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#2

Post by B. W. » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:20 pm

Zep 2:3 Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.

Isa 26:19, 20, 21c, "Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain."

Zep 3:8, "Therefore wait for Me," says the LORD, "Until the day I rise up for plunder; My determination is to gather the nations To My assembly of kingdoms, To pour on them My indignation, All My fierce anger; All the earth shall be devoured With the fire of My jealousy..."

Dan 12:1. 2, 3, "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."


Paul was enlightened on this matter somewhere – hmmm – wonder where??? Guess anyone?

1 Th 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18c, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

Psalms 71:20. “You, who have shown me great and severe troubles, Shall revive me again, and bring me up again from the depths of the earth.”

Job 19:25, 26, 27c, “For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!”


One of Preterism’s many flaws – bottom line is that it can provide no comfort…only offers mega condemnation to anyone who disbelieves it.

2 Ti 2:15, 16, 18c, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness….18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

Bible quotes from NKJV
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#3

Post by puritan lad » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:35 pm

B.W.,

You posted some Scripture, but did not relate as to how they answered my questions (or even what questions they attempted to answer). Maybe it would help if you took one at a time. Pick one.

As for condemnation in my post, I didn't see any.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#4

Post by B. W. » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:44 pm

puritan lad wrote:B.W.,

You posted some Scripture, but did not relate as to how they answered my questions (or even what questions they attempted to answer). Maybe it would help if you took one at a time. Pick one.

As for condemnation in my post, I didn't see any.
They do about the rapture...
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#5

Post by puritan lad » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:55 pm

Ah, that.

I see lots of Scriptures about the resurrection. The only one that deals with any sort of a "rapture" is 1 Thessalonians 4. But that passage makes no mention of a tribulation period. As for it being "pre-trib", the fact that there is a resurrection before the "rapture" is a major problem. To quote one of my original questions: If 1 Thess. 4:17 is the pre-trib rapture, then that means that 1 Thess. 4:16 is a pre-trib resurrection, correct? Yet the “First Resurrection” of Revelation 20:4-5 includes “the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.” Aren’t these supposed to be the tribulation saints? How can they have a part in the first resurrection if the first resurrection takes place before the tribulation even starts?
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#6

Post by B. W. » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:00 am

So these passages have absolutely NO suggestion or implies in any way shape manner or form that a great and terrible time happens? That there is No escape? Are you sure?

Zep 2:3 Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.

Isa 26:19, 20, 21c, "Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain."

Zep 3:8, "Therefore wait for Me," says the LORD, "Until the day I rise up for plunder; My determination is to gather the nations To My assembly of kingdoms, To pour on them My indignation, All My fierce anger; All the earth shall be devoured With the fire of My jealousy..."

Dan 12:1. 2, 3, "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."

1 Th 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18c, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words
.”

These passages tell us that there will be a rapture, but prophecy from the Lord is always ambiguous as Proverbs 25:2 explains why. Therefore, the time of the rapture is unknown. All passages it could happen before, during, or after a great terrible time when the full fury of the Lord is poured out upon the Entire World. So to be ‘Hidden till the indignation passes’ mostly points out that it will occur before or during and not after ths terrible time.

Since it describes that all the nations and earth are involved in this, suggest that these event have not happened at all yet. Revelation’s Book mentions the time it speaks of as being when God’s wrath is poured out on all the earth and humanity how much of humanity dies? Again, this has not happened yet and never occurred 70AD (All Jews were banished from Israel 135 AD as a matter of fact).

Here is the problem as I see it PL, no disrespect intended, but your linear mode of argument and use linear time sequence of verses does not wash with biblical prophecy. Bible prophecy verses do not follow a linear line of reasoning, They give a little detail hear, then later over there and in between other unrelated events – Proverbs 25:2 tells why this is.

Example: Isaiah 9:6-7 speaks of Jesus Isaiah 9:3-5 have no relation to verse 6 and 7. If I try to follow your linear thinking – then Isaiah 9:8-12 must absolutely indicate that the person spoken of in Verses 6 and 7 must have been born sometime around when the Northern kingdom was conquered in the 720 BC time frame. Sorry PL, prophecy does not work like that.

Likewise Isaiah 61:1-2 was something Jesus quoted about himself and linearly, verse 4 thru 7 did not happen right after Jesus spoke, did it?
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#7

Post by jlay » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:09 am

Is Matthew 16:28 the literal Second Advent, or should we understand it as something else? If the former, then are some of Jesus’ listeners still alive?
Why wouldn't we take this to be fulfilled in the transfiguration? Since in three different gospels this appearing is mentioned, and in each case it is immediately followed with the transfiguration.
· Why did Peter say that Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28-32) saw it’s fulfillment on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21)?
Because it was. Obviously you have an objection here, but I don't understand. Can you clarify? Who is saying otherwise?
· Where does the Bible say that Jesus will reign “on earth” for 1,000 years? Why is the “1,000 year reign” mentioned only in Revelation 20, the most “symbolic” book in the Bible?
Why were prophets limited in any revelation? Of course we know they were. Why did Paul receive new revelation that had been hidden? So, why is it unusual that John would receive new revelation? How many times does something have to be mentioned in scripture to make it true?
Why were the First Century Churches of Asia concerned with 21st Century events? Why would Jesus promise to deliver the First Century Church of Philadelphia from events that none of them would ever live to see
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Either revelation is symbolic, or it isn't. Are the churches literal? I have no problem with a critique of dispensational eschatology. But your adjusting your hermanuetic to suit your critique.

BTW, when do our best estimates place the writing of Revelation?
What kind of chain will be used to bind the angel Satan (Revelation 20:1-3)?
Certainly not the kind you buy at Ace Hardware. 1,000 year warranty.
Where does the 2,000 gap in Daniel’s 70 week prophecy come from (Daniel 9:24-27)?
Dispensational theology places the gap as the cutting off of Israel for a time, until the body of Christ is complete.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#8

Post by puritan lad » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:23 am

B.W.,

The only passage that even mentions anything like a "rapture" is 1 Thessalonians 4 (and it cannot be pre-trib, as I already showed.) The others mention nothing about a rapture. Christians were removed from God's wrath and indignation in 70 AD. Josephus testifies to that fact. Christians left Jerusalem because the obeyed Christ's warning:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." (Luke 21:20-22)

Why would Christ tells his apostles to flee from Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation when: 1.) It would take place 2,000 years later, and 2.) Christians would be raptured out of it.
B.W. wrote:Here is the problem as I see it PL, no disrespect intended, but your linear mode of argument and use linear time sequence of verses does not wash with biblical prophecy. Bible prophecy verses do not follow a linear line of reasoning, They give a little detail hear, then later over there and in between other unrelated events –
No disrespect taken. We are debating doctrine, not each others personal worth. If I felt disrespected every time someone disagreed with me, I'd be in sad shape.

I any case, regardless of how you approach Bible Prophecy, it is clear that

1.) There is a resurrection before the "rapture" (1 Thess. 4:16-17), and,
2.) The tribulation saints have a part in the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-5).

That's a huge problem for the pre-trib view, even if you do believe that the Great Tribulation is still future (which I don't).
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#9

Post by puritan lad » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:18 am

jlay wrote:
Is Matthew 16:28 the literal Second Advent, or should we understand it as something else? If the former, then are some of Jesus’ listeners still alive?
Why wouldn't we take this to be fulfilled in the transfiguration? Since in three different gospels this appearing is mentioned, and in each case it is immediately followed with the transfiguration.
My main objection to the transfiguration fulfillment is verse 27. "For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done." (Matthew 16:27) Did this happen at the transfiguration?

However, there is value in this interpretation, since even the most hardcore dispensationalists must acknowledge that, in some manner, Christ came in his kingdom in the First Century (I would say it was fulfilled in his death, resurrection, ascension, and judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.)

jlay wrote:
· Why did Peter say that Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28-32) saw it’s fulfillment on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21)?
Because it was. Obviously you have an objection here, but I don't understand. Can you clarify? Who is saying otherwise?
Would you include this?

"And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day." (Acts 2:19-20)

I don't see where we have the option not to, unless Peter was mistaken.
jlay wrote:
· Where does the Bible say that Jesus will reign “on earth” for 1,000 years? Why is the “1,000 year reign” mentioned only in Revelation 20, the most “symbolic” book in the Bible?
Why were prophets limited in any revelation? Of course we know they were. Why did Paul receive new revelation that had been hidden? So, why is it unusual that John would receive new revelation? How many times does something have to be mentioned in scripture to make it true?
But John said absolutely nothing about an earthly millennium. All he said was that Christ would reign a 1,000 years (and he is currently reigning now).
jlay wrote:
Why were the First Century Churches of Asia concerned with 21st Century events? Why would Jesus promise to deliver the First Century Church of Philadelphia from events that none of them would ever live to see
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Either revelation is symbolic, or it isn't. Are the churches literal? I have no problem with a critique of dispensational eschatology. But your adjusting your hermanuetic to suit your critique.
Of course the churches are literal. Why would we think otherwise? It is the dispensationalist who has to adjusting their hermeneutic.
jlay wrote:BTW, when do our best estimates place the writing of Revelation?
About AD 66. See Dating The Book Of Revelation
jlay wrote:
What kind of chain will be used to bind the angel Satan (Revelation 20:1-3)?
Certainly not the kind you buy at Ace Hardware. 1,000 year warranty.
jlay wrote:
Where does the 2,000 gap in Daniel’s 70 week prophecy come from (Daniel 9:24-27)?
Dispensational theology places the gap as the cutting off of Israel for a time, until the body of Christ is complete.
So what is the basis for placing this gap here, and why did Daniel fail to mention it?
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#10

Post by jlay » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:51 am

However, there is value in this interpretation, since even the most hardcore dispensationalists must acknowledge that, in some manner, Christ came in his kingdom in the First Century (I would say it was fulfilled in his death, resurrection, ascension, and judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.)
In some sense, yes, a dispensationalist would agree.
Would you include this?

"And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day." (Acts 2:19-20)

I don't see where we have the option not to, unless Peter was mistaken.
Sure. Before the day of the Lord comes.
But John said absolutely nothing about an earthly millennium. All he said was that Christ would reign a 1,000 years (and he is currently reigning now).
Of course, Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father. Is Satan bound, or is he still the prince of this world?
Of course the churches are literal.
You just said that Revelation is the "most" symbolic book in the bible. Churches literal. 1,000 years symbolic?

Then I saw aan angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain 1in his hand.

2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the aabyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. (Where are these nations? Earth)

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of 1their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not fworshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. aThis is the first resurrection. (1st resurrection?? What??) 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection(first resurrection??); over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will dreign with Him for a thousand years. ( Priests? Where? In Heaven, or on the Earth? And who was on the thrones judging?)

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
(So satan was imprisoned for a thousand years and released in the 1st century?)

8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the esand of the seashore.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#11

Post by puritan lad » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:23 pm

jlay wrote:In some sense, yes, a dispensationalist would agree.
That's usually a good start. I would ask why dispensationalists would futurize Matthew 25:31, since the construction is nearly identical to Matthew 16:27?

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne." (Matthew 25:31)
jlay wrote:Sure. Before the day of the Lord comes.
But Peter applied the entire prophecy to the Day of Pentecost, specifically what they were witnessing at that time.

"But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:" (Acts 2:16)

Peter said nothing about a future fulfillment, but applied the "last days" to his own time (as most NT writers did).
jlay wrote:Of course, Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father. Is Satan bound, or is he still the prince of this world?
Both. Luke 10:18-19. Christ has bound the strong man and is currently plundering his house (Luke 11:20-23)
jlay wrote:You just said that Revelation is the "most" symbolic book in the bible. Churches literal. 1,000 years symbolic?
Yes. There is a system to the symbolism in Revelation. The meaning is not "up for grabs" to be determined by the headline stories on CNN (or the Simpsons). There is no precident for symbolizing these churches in Scripture. However, there is plenty of precident for symbolizing numbers like 1,000, especially since Christ has been reigning for much longer than that already.
jlay wrote:Then I saw aan angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain 1in his hand.

2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the aabyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. (Where are these nations? Earth)

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of 1their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not fworshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. aThis is the first resurrection. (1st resurrection?? What??) 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection(first resurrection??); over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will dreign with Him for a thousand years. ( Priests? Where? In Heaven, or on the Earth? And who was on the thrones judging?)

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
(So satan was imprisoned for a thousand years and released in the 1st century?)

8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the esand of the seashore.
There is a lot here, but nothing that says that Christ is sitting on an earthly throne, or that this takes place after His Second Advent. In light of the Matthew passsages above, we see just the opposite. Note well the preposition in this oft misused passage in Daniel,

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came TO the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13-14)

This passage is commonly used to explain the Second Advent, but is actually refers to Christ's Ascension. He come TO the Ancient of Days, not to earth, to establish His Kingdom.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#12

Post by jlay » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:37 pm

Where did I say he was sitting on an earthly throne?
That's usually a good start. I would ask why dispensationalists would futurize Matthew 25:31, since the construction is nearly identical to Matthew 16:27?
I think its a fair question. I guess one answer would be context.
But Peter applied the entire prophecy to the Day of Pentecost, specifically what they were witnessing at that time.
OK, So what?
And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
19 “Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.
So Satan was bound, and The 1,000 years was the time of Christ earthly ministry? Becuase these gifts died with the apostles. Not really sure what you are trying to convey here.
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#13

Post by B. W. » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:54 pm

PL, Here is a problem for your eschatology:

Rev 20:5, “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.” NAS

Rev 20:6, “Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”
NAS

The first resurrection would have to have occurred 70 AD than everyone left after 70 AD will be condemned to the second death and the Lake of Fire – EVEN YOU PL.

Look again at what the bible says:

Zep 2:3, "Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger."

Isa 26:19, 20, 21c, "Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain."

Zep 3:8, "Therefore wait for Me," says the LORD, "Until the day I rise up for plunder; My determination is to gather the nations To My assembly of kingdoms, To pour on them My indignation, All My fierce anger; All the earth shall be devoured With the fire of My jealousy..."

Dan 12:1. 2, 3, "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered (rescued), Everyone who is found written in the book.

“2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life,

“…Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."

1 Th 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18c, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”


Well PL, the bible most certainly indicates a first resurrection of those in Christ and it did not happen yet. For if it did, we are all damned to the lake of fire…

Bible quotes from NKJV unless other wise posted...
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#14

Post by B. W. » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:16 pm

Pl, Before we continue:

Please define the supremacy of the Church from the Preterist point of view...

Next,

As for Luke 21:21-23 please note that Luke 21:20, 22, 23, 24 define this event to 70 AD.

Amos 9:8, 9 defines the events mentioned in Luke 21:22, 24 and note the plural use of day (days) in verse 21 and how they were to be scattered as Amos mentions. Then note that Amos 9:14, 15 refers to a second regathering of the Jewish people back to Israel as does Isa 11:10-11 and Ezekiel too.

Luke 21:25-28 has not happened yet. Why did Jesus say 'generation' (verse 32) rather than 'YOU' in verse 32 and break continuity if his word if he meant only those standing there? The generation is a future one as days (plural) verse Luke 21:22 speaks of more than one days. The Day in verse 34 as now tuned into one Last DAY in Luke 21:34 differing from the other days in Luke 21:22. That particular generation Jesus mentions are the you’s in the next verse and does not have to imply those standing there the day he spoke this.

Now if as Paul stated, Jesus will bring those who died with him – then those standing there would see all this too as well. Big deal… Only the mortal living ones would have to take heed. Then Jesus tells those that will be alive in mortal flesh to pray that they may escaped which lines up with every verse I cited concerning the rapture.

What we have here is Jesus speaking a prophetic word in full ambiguity and not in some linear mode of gnostic secret preterist wisdom known only to the elect. Some of his word would have been fulfilled 70 to 135 AD and the rest later on. A little here and more over there...

Luke 17:30 – when was the Son of man revealed, PL? how?

As for Jesus speaking only to those standing next to him in Matthew 24 to support Preterism negates that Jesus, God manifest in human flesh is much wiser than us all and knowing full well that he’d be speaking to a future generation as well as those standing there who would be with Jesus in the clouds when He returns would see all this too from a protected vantage point. The use of the word, You, in Matthew 24, Luke 17, Luke 21 is therefore simply moot.

For preterism to be true would mean that preterist are much and by far smarter than Jesus, 2nd person of the Divine Trinity! So please answer this, why cannot God speak to all within the use of YOU – those that will be with him in the clouds and those mortal alive during the last days?
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Re: Endtimes Questions for Dispensationalists

#15

Post by puritan lad » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:32 am

B.W.,

This is one example of where the selective and arbitrary "literalism" of Dispensationalism gets them off the mark. This is a problem only if you assume that the first resurrection is the last day's bodily resurrection. But it's not. Our final resurrection take place at the last day (Daniel 12:13, John 6:44), not before some earthly millennium. The first resurrection is simply salvation.

"...They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

This is the same resurrection constantly referred to in the NT:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." (John 5:24-25)

"having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses," (Colossians 2:12-13)

John goes of further to explain the blessings of taking part in Christ's resurrection:

"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

As believers sealed by Christ's blood, the second death has no power over us. Not only that. but we becomes kings and priests in Christ's kingdom, and that is a current, not merely a future, reality. (Ephesians 1:20-22, Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 1:13; 1 Peter 2:9).

In contrast, your view requires at least 4 different resurrections, 1007 years apart.

1.) Pre-trib resurrection (1 Thess. 4:16)
2.) First Resurrection (which should actually be the second, since it takes place after the tribulation and before the "millennium") (Rev. 20:4)
3.) The Second (actually Third) Resurrection of damnation after the millennium (Rev. 20:5)
4.) I would assume that the millennial saints need a resurrection as well, since according to your view, they cannot be a part of the First (Second) Resurrection.

This is a mess.
B.W. wrote:Please define the supremacy of the Church from the Preterist point of view...
Not sure exactly what you are looking for. You will have to be more specific.
B.W. wrote:Next,

As for Luke 21:21-23 please note that Luke 21:20, 22, 23, 24 define this event to 70 AD.
Agree. But that would also define Matthew 24:15-20 as 70 AD as well, would it not? So the Abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel was simply the Roman invasion of Jerusalem.
B.W. wrote:Amos 9:8, 9 defines the events mentioned in Luke 21:22, 24 and note the plural use of day (days) in verse 21 and how they were to be scattered as Amos mentions. Then note that Amos 9:14, 15 refers to a second regathering of the Jewish people back to Israel as does Isa 11:10-11 and Ezekiel too.
Amos was dealing more with the coming Assyrian invasion of Israel, and the restoration thereafter. Isaiah 11 refers to the First Advent of Christ, not His Second. The restoration there was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:5-12). One major problem that your interpretation faces is that many of the nations listed in Isaiah no longer exist (Edom and Moab in Isaiah 11:14 and Assyria in Isaiah 11:16).
B.W. wrote:Luke 21:25-28 has not happened yet. Why did Jesus say 'generation' (verse 32) rather than 'YOU' in verse 32 and break continuity if his word if he meant only those standing there? The generation is a future one as days (plural) verse Luke 21:22 speaks of more than one days. The Day in verse 34 as now tuned into one Last DAY in Luke 21:34 differing from the other days in Luke 21:22. That particular generation Jesus mentions are the you’s in the next verse and does not have to imply those standing there the day he spoke this.
Actually, what Jesus said to His Apostles was "this generation" (hauta genea). He said nothing about a future generation, but clearly told the Apostles that all of the things he was speaking about would happen within their generation. There have been many attempts to dance around this passage using literary gymnastics, but there is no getting around what Jesus said here. A few,like yourself, want to ignore the meaning of hauto. It means "this". More often than not, Dispensationalists will try to redefine "genea" as if it referred to the Jewish race. It does not and cannot mean that. {Race would be ethnos". The word genea is used 42 times in the Bible, and ALWAYS refers to a contemporary group of people living at the same time, a generation.
B.W. wrote:What we have here is Jesus speaking a prophetic word in full ambiguity and not in some linear mode of gnostic secret preterist wisdom known only to the elect. Some of his word would have been fulfilled 70 to 135 AD and the rest later on. A little here and more over there...
C'mon B.W. Can you have a discussion without strawmen ad hominems? "gnostic secret preterist wisdom"? Please. Preterists simply take the Bible for what it says, taking the time frame references seriously, and allowing the literature of Scripture to speak for itself, using other Scriptures to gain insight into complicated ones.
B.W. wrote:Luke 17:30 – when was the Son of man revealed, PL? how?
Yes, in His powerful vengeance on Jerusalem. (Matthew 16:27-28 cf. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8)
B.W. wrote:As for Jesus speaking only to those standing next to him in Matthew 24 to support Preterism negates that Jesus, God manifest in human flesh is much wiser than us all and knowing full well that he’d be speaking to a future generation as well as those standing there who would be with Jesus in the clouds when He returns would see all this too from a protected vantage point. The use of the word, You, in Matthew 24, Luke 17, Luke 21 is therefore simply moot.

For preterism to be true would mean that preterist are much and by far smarter than Jesus, 2nd person of the Divine Trinity! So please answer this, why cannot God speak to all within the use of YOU – those that will be with him in the clouds and those mortal alive during the last days?
Argumentum ad Circulum. You are assuming that this is what Jesus did, that he did speak to those who would be around at His Second Advent. That is what we are debating. Preterists are not making any judgment on the wisdom of Jesus, not about what Jesus could have said or done. As I pointed out above, there is no basis for believing Jesus meant any future generation. He was quite clear on when he said those things would take place.
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