Preterism Debate / Research

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#16

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:28 am

I don't think it matters what WE think of preterism, it matters if it was viewed as such by those that the Letters and Gospels were originally written for.
What did THEY see in them and what did they think?
And from what I have read some thought the events happened, some were happening and some saw some events had happened and more were to come, while others saw them as future events.
Much in common to what we have nowadays.
Paul addressed that issue with the church in Thessolonia in his 2nd letter to them.
I think that it truly depends on HOW literal AND concrete we take any of the passages.
AN example is when Jesus said that "this" generation would witness all these things before they passed away, did Jesus mean they would witness ALL that he described earlier? or just the context of presecution, destruction and such? did he mean generation as in those present and alive or generation as "race"?
and if we take the literal and concrete view, was Jesus's prophecy fullfied or is it yet to be fullfilled or was he "wrong" or did God change his mind?
How did the people hearing this understand it? did they understand it at all?

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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#17

Post by B. W. » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:08 am

PaulSacramento wrote:I don't think it matters what WE think of preterism, it matters if it was viewed as such by those that the Letters and Gospels were originally written for.

What did THEY see in them and what did they think?

And from what I have read some thought the events happened, some were happening and some saw some events had happened and more were to come, while others saw them as future events. Much in common to what we have nowadays. Paul addressed that issue with the church in Thessolonia in his 2nd letter to them.

I think that it truly depends on HOW literal AND concrete we take any of the passages. AN example is when Jesus said that "this" generation would witness all these things before they passed away, did Jesus mean they would witness ALL that he described earlier? or just the context of persecution, destruction and such? did he mean generation as in those present and alive or generation as "race"?

And if we take the literal and concrete view, was Jesus’ prophecy fulfilled or is it yet to be fulfilled or was he "wrong" or did God change his mind?

How did the people hearing this understand it? did they understand it at all?
1 Th 4:15-16 answer the question regarding who anyone would or could interpret Luke 21:29-36 concerning the definition of who this refers too... as anyone who passed on and with Jesus would see who the this is too as well as those who are the this generation

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Th 4:15, 16, NKJV
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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#18

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:18 pm

B. W. wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I don't think it matters what WE think of preterism, it matters if it was viewed as such by those that the Letters and Gospels were originally written for.

What did THEY see in them and what did they think?

And from what I have read some thought the events happened, some were happening and some saw some events had happened and more were to come, while others saw them as future events. Much in common to what we have nowadays. Paul addressed that issue with the church in Thessolonia in his 2nd letter to them.

I think that it truly depends on HOW literal AND concrete we take any of the passages. AN example is when Jesus said that "this" generation would witness all these things before they passed away, did Jesus mean they would witness ALL that he described earlier? or just the context of persecution, destruction and such? did he mean generation as in those present and alive or generation as "race"?

And if we take the literal and concrete view, was Jesus’ prophecy fulfilled or is it yet to be fulfilled or was he "wrong" or did God change his mind?

How did the people hearing this understand it? did they understand it at all?
1 Th 4:15-16 answer the question regarding who anyone would or could interpret Luke 21:29-36 concerning the definition of who this refers too... as anyone who passed on and with Jesus would see who the this is too as well as those who are the this generation

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Th 4:15, 16, NKJV
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That is a prime example of course.
The Thessolonias believed that the second coming would come in their life time, that is why a follow-up letter by Paul was needed:
2 Thessolonians 2:
As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters,a 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless oneb is revealed, the one destined for destruction.c 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? 6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesusd will destroye with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, 10 and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, 12 so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.

It seems that some took what Paul said in his earlier letter and what others had been prophesing as sign that the second coming was happening already.
Paul tried to clear that up for them.

As Paul went on in his ministry we see less and less obvious talk about signs and such.

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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#19

Post by B. W. » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:52 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:That is a prime example of course.
The Thessalonians believed that the second coming would come in their life time, that is why a follow-up letter by Paul was needed: 2 Thessalonians 2:

“ As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? 6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, 10 and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, 12 so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.”

It seems that some took what Paul said in his earlier letter and what others had been prophesying as sign that the second coming was happening already. Paul tried to clear that up for them.

As Paul went on in his ministry we see less and less obvious talk about signs and such.
(Please note: in no way am I trying to impugn you of error or wrong thinking so please note this as you read. You point out a common tactic used by all branches of Preterism – the only those to whom heard or written too applies argument. I am addressing that point of view – not yours below)

Here is something to consider regarding what I think I am hearing you say that since Paul and the biblical writers wrote only letters that apply to only those in their time, location, and era, we can only apply these to them in their day and not to ourselves in our times. What does this suggest to believers or non-believers?

It would suggest that the books of Thessalonians were only for the ancient Thessalonians and the Colossians for the ancient Colossian and the Romans for the ancient Romans and the gospels only for those in the ancient first century. Thus likewise, the Old Testament, only applies to those dates, times, hearers, and recipients of respective ancient eras; therefore, the only conclusion would be, the bible no longer can apply to us in any shape of form in our current time because nothing in it can apply to a modern world.

If that be the case of determining biblical truth then what of John 3:15, 16 only applying to those in earshot of Jesus during the time period the apostles lived? If so, we are most certainly without hope and God in this world. The argument turns on the absurdity of the logic it attempts to use to prove Preterist doctrine.

There is a liberal system of critique has infected venues of modern biblical scholastic thought in various forms or another. This method of critique is espoused as the hallmark of honest biblical scholarship but in reality was designed to weaken faith and create doubt with the goal to collapse existing theological truth in order to replace it with something built by man.

The points you help bring to light help to do just that. How God inspired people to write the books contained in the bible and had them placed within a book displays a deeper wisdom than the human mind can willingly accept.

Look at the book of Isaiah or Jeremiah, Daniel, or Amos for example, in these books the writers, inspired by the Lord, wrote things that came about hundreds of years later, yet the tenses they used along with the wording was written for those then hearing and those who yet unborn were destined hear later on. That is the wisdom of God displayed within the Bible. Something the position suggested fails to acknowledge.

Preterism does injustice to God’s wisdom within the bible by imposing human generated limitations buttressed by higher criticism methods to substantiate doctrine whose strength is built solely by creating doubt and weakening faith in the inspired words recorded within the bible derived by the wisdom of God. Best we all look to Christ, my friends...

Dan 12:10, "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand."
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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#20

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:31 am

B.W.
I see your point and agree.
My point is that, while we certainly can take an ancient document and apply it to our times and many times we should do that, we need to realize that IF the document was not written that way that even IF we are doing that, we are going beyond the purpose of the letter/book/document.
Some writings were prophetic and far reaching, even beyond their direct application to who it was directed.
Others were not meant to be take that way and to take them that way AND create division or dissension is wrong.
There is nothing wrong in taking what Jesus said about the destruction of the temple that came true in 70 AD and applying it to some event that happened 1000 years later to that may happen yet, but we can't expect everyone to agree with it and shouln't make a big deal if they don't.

Certain parts of ancient writing lends itself to "the ages", while others are very "time specific: to the time they were written ( like the stoning laws of leviticus).

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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#21

Post by B. W. » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:38 am

PaulSacramento wrote:B.W.I see your point and agree.My point is that, while we certainly can take an ancient document and apply it to our times and many times we should do that, we need to realize that IF the document was not written that way that even IF we are doing that, we are going beyond the purpose of the letter/book/document.
Some writings were prophetic and far reaching, even beyond their direct application to who it was directed.

Others were not meant to be take that way and to take them that way AND create division or dissension is wrong.

There is nothing wrong in taking what Jesus said about the destruction of the temple that came true in 70 AD and applying it to some event that happened 1000 years later to that may happen yet, but we can't expect everyone to agree with it and shouln't make a big deal if they don't.

Certain parts of ancient writing lends itself to "the ages", while others are very "time specific: to the time they were written ( like the stoning laws of leviticus).

The text in the gospel that mention, this generation will by no means pass away till all is fulfilled in Luke 21:32c (context Luke21:29-31c) is prophetic. Verse 31 has not happened yet as this event is found elsewhere mentioned in the bible in different ways.

When you look into OT prophecy, you’ll discover Jerusalem mentioned often surrounded by enemies and falls. Out of these recorded incidences concerning Jerusalem, two mention that after it falls the Jewish people would be scattered into the nations and twice re-gathered again at a later date. Then a third distinct time it mentions Jerusalem again surrounded and attacked (Ezekiel 14:21-23c note the four horseman of the apocalypse in Revelations and four judgments), yet, this time it does not fall but instead the Lord intervenes physically (Isaiah 40:2, Ezekiel 36:1-38c, Isaiah 24:23c, Isaiah 31:4-5 and many more too numerous to quote all at this time) and this has not yet happened. Nor was the gospel preached to all nations by 70 AD as evident by the Mayan/Aztec/Native Americans/Polynesians Islanders/ Isolated Indo-China peoples living in these area in 70 AD.

Therefore, the way the Lord, in his wisdom would say a matter concerning fleeing when you see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies can apply to 70-135AD events as well as to the Rapture, as well as to those alive at the time of His physical return. It really does not matter because the Lord promised to warn his people of things to come before they come and what better way than a manner which test the righteous solidifying their faith several times in preparation for the last end time?
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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#22

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:55 pm

Therefore, the way the Lord, in his wisdom would say a matter concerning fleeing when you see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies can apply to 70-135AD events as well as to the Rapture, as well as to those alive at the time of His physical return. It really does not matter because the Lord promised to warn his people of things to come before they come and what better way than a manner which test the righteous solidifying their faith several times in preparation for the last end time?
Indeed, one can apply The Lord's prophetic words to what happened in 70 AD and to what continued to happen and is happening today, BUT did Christ mean to imply that? if so, why reference THIS generation ( unless generation was taken as "race" of group of people, in this case believers of Christ)?

In its most natural reading, it SEEMS to imply that those present, THAT GENERATION, would see all those events.
Of course The Lord does go on to expand ( IN Matthew) and add to it, in he view of some, clearing up things:

36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,h but only the Father. 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what dayi your Lord is coming. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.

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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#23

Post by B. W. » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:34 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Therefore, the way the Lord, in his wisdom would say a matter concerning fleeing when you see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies can apply to 70-135AD events as well as to the Rapture, as well as to those alive at the time of His physical return. It really does not matter because the Lord promised to warn his people of things to come before they come and what better way than a manner which test the righteous solidifying their faith several times in preparation for the last end time?
Indeed, one can apply The Lord's prophetic words to what happened in 70 AD and to what continued to happen and is happening today, BUT did Christ mean to imply that? if so, why reference THIS generation ( unless generation was taken as "race" of group of people, in this case believers of Christ)?

In its most natural reading, it SEEMS to imply that those present, THAT GENERATION, would see all those events.
Of course The Lord does go on to expand ( IN Matthew) and add to it, in he view of some, clearing up things:

36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,h but only the Father. 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what dayi your Lord is coming. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.
With God knowing everything and with such wisdom as he has – he could surly imply several things from one saying which leads to one final event. From it many warnings can be applied correctly for any given time. Such is the wisdom of God who foresees and knows all. To deny this and limit God in this matter demonstrates that one’s faith is in their works, not in God’s who is more than able to do and reason far above what we may think or do or reason.

Next, Jesus did not return physically to rule the earth as was clearly prophesied in the OT; therefore, the ‘you’ refers to those who are mortally alive at that time of his return and we also must not forget those standing around Jesus as well as all 'who passed on' will be with Jesus as the bible says will happen. These deceased would in essence see these events as well from a better perspective than those mortal that remain. So no matter how you slice it, God’s wisdom of his words and saying trumps mans’.

Next, Let's break down these verse specific verse from Luke 2129-36 by connecting context and ask some questions...

Let's break down these verse specific verse from Luke 21:29-36 by connecting context and ask some questions...

Luke 21:29, "Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees."

Luke 21:32, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place."

Notice how the above tow verses connect to each other? This defines the this generation as being those that see and understand what is meant by the fig tree (increasing intensity of natural disasters, increase in wars, ethnos wars, peoples heart failing from instability, , and yes, the return of Israel as a nation as Amos 9 describes, etc... This defines that he is speaking to the End of Days generation.

Luke 21:33, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

The above verse says that the Lord's words are sure on this matter...

Luke 21:36, "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

The Luke 21:36 verse has not happened nor could it have happened in 70 AD as those alive during that time did not stand before Jesus and the Minlemuim reign of peace did not occur after 70 AD, in fact it was not till 135 AD that the words of the Lord concerning the fulfillment of the 2'nd scattering of the Jewish people into all the world was completed. It was not until the 1920-1948 that the Jewish people began to return to Israel and a nation born in one Day in 1948 happened as prophesied by the Lord.

If all the words were fulfilled as Luke 21:33 says, then what about the ones concerning Israel 2nd scattering and re-gathering? That was not fulfilled in 70 AD.

If the rapture occurred in 70 AD - what does that say about us and our part the White Throne Judgment when those standing before this judgment are all confined into the Lake of Fire?

You see Preterism cannot answer these questions but instead seeks to replace the nation of Israel according to various teaching from each of the Preterist campus.

Also this did not occur 70 AD.

Rev 20:6. "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

This reign is described in the OT has the Lord physically ruling in bodily form from Jerusalem, in Israel (Micah 4:1, 2, 3, Psalms 2:8, Psalms 22:27, 28, 29, 30, 31c, Psalms 72:11c. Zechariah 14:9, Zechariah)

In fact, when did Rev 11:15 occur or has it yet? If it did not happen, then what of Luke 21:33 regarding fulfillment? The same Heaven and earth remain – does it not?

What of Zechariah 12:10?

What of Amos 9:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15c fulfillment as well too?
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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#24

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:41 am

B.W, we are on the same page.
I was trying to show that a verse or series of verse can be taken in different ways and that, as always and with especially prophecies, one must be uber-cautious or we risk falling into the traps of the likes of the JW's and 1975 and the great disappointment of 1844.

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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#25

Post by B. W. » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:13 pm

Agreed Paul!

I like how you brought to light certain points, very well done and a pleasure to discuss this topic with you.

Do you have other insights you would like to point out?
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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#26

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:49 pm

B. W. wrote:Agreed Paul!

I like how you brought to light certain points, very well done and a pleasure to discuss this topic with you.

Do you have other insights you would like to point out?
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Only that we are, like everyone else, just stating our opinions, nothing more, nothing less and that we ALL give way to Our Lord and the Holy spirit that reveals all to us in due time.
Its great to discuss and debate these things, it helps us as brothers and sisters in faith to learn more about each other and what we believe in the "Body of Christ" that we all are part of.
Discussion should always bring people together under Christ, not divide Us.

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Re: Preterism Debate / Research

#27

Post by neo-x » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:28 pm

Discussion should always bring people together under Christ, not divide Us.
:clap: very well said.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
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