Question about the "rapture" or lack thereof

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
cubeus19
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Re: Question about the "rapture" or lack thereof

#16

Post by cubeus19 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:03 am

Thanks Y323 that does make sense, what I said below is just a nagging fear I have along with the wide ranges of disagreement among biblical scholars have over eschatology, I was looking at a worst case scenario and making sure that there is little to no evidence for it. Again, I was just trying to get rid of some nagging fear and doubt that I had over our fate or future in the grand scheme of things.

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Re: Question about the "rapture" or lack thereof

#17

Post by Sudsy » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:40 am

When it comes to what exactly we will do in eternity, I don't think anyone knows or was meant to know. If our faith is placed in the God of the scriptures, we have nothing to fear. Fear and faith are opposites. To get rid of our fears we need to increase our faith which comes by hearing God speak to us. If we don't take quality time to listen, we will miss out on hearing from God, increasing our faith and calming our fears. I find my fears directly related to whether my faith is growing or dwindling. I think most fears come when we just don't take time to cast our cares and concerns on God and truly rest in Him. He is working all things together for the good for those who love Him. He provides us with a peace that prevails through our limited understandings. "Trust and obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey."

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Re: Question about the "rapture" or lack thereof

#18

Post by Sudsy » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:21 pm

Hi Katabole,

Some questions as I am a bit thick headed in understanding some of this.
On the first day of the Millennium age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" will be with us on earth. You cannot enter that kingdom age in a flesh body. Therefore, it is written in verse 52 that all will be changed, in the wink of an eye, and at the last trumpet (seventh trump). When that seventh trump sounds, everyone on earth will be changed to an incorruptible spirit body.
When you say the 'Kingdom of Heaven" will be with us on earth are you including every human that ever lived in their spiritual body or just believers ?
Every person will have the same capabilities and all will have the understanding to be taught without Satan's influence. That's why every knee bends and every mouth confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord at this time.
Confused again here, sorry. :oops: . Are we only speaking about those who were on the earth when Christ returned and had their bodies changed to spiritual ones ? If yes, is not this a special treatment for them to receive the Gospel without any influence of satan ? Will they all be saved when every knee bows ? I likely really am mis-understanding.
However, only those believers of God in Christ who have died in the flesh, or who lived and stood against Satan will take part in the first resurrection. By that I mean, will have an active part with Jesus Christ in His kingdom and reign, as he rules and teaches the earth for one thousand years, and live in their immortal soul bodies.
And are they teaching all these dead spiritual bodies to bring some back to life ?
Those who did take the "mark of the beast", their souls will not, I repeat, will not have "eternal" spiritual live, and live again until the Millennium age is over and finished. When it is, they will be judged according to their 'works' not faith. Those who pass have eternal life and those who don't go to the 'lake of fire'.
This is the sheep and goats judment, right ? If yes, isn't this used today quite often for a works based salvation ? Any thoughts on this ?
Unlike those who didn't know of Christ, or weren't taught about Christ, they will have a spiritual body with an immortal soul because as stated in my previous post the second death has no power over them. They wil rule and reign with Christ (as priests) during those thousand years and teach the masses of souls who have spiritual bodies but "mortal " souls, meaning they are still liable to die. Once they are all taught, then Satan will be released to tempt all those who were taught. Then they will be judged according to their works.
Whoops, I got lost again here. Is this the sheep and goats judgment again.

Perhaps if you give me a step by step identifying the saved and unsaved, I might get it better. Or you may have thought you did. Sorry, I'm just having trouble following. Maybe my old age.

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Re: Question about the "rapture" or lack thereof

#19

Post by Katabole » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:41 am

Hi Sudsy.

I'll try to answer your questions.

You asked:

When you say the 'Kingdom of Heaven" will be with us on earth are you including every human that ever lived in their spiritual body or just believers ?

Yes, I'm including every human that ever lived in their spiritual bodies and believers.

You asked:

Confused again here, sorry. . Are we only speaking about those who were on the earth when Christ returned and had their bodies changed to spiritual ones ?

No. This also includes all those who have died in the past and return with Christ, believers and non-believers.

You asked:

And are they teaching all these dead spiritual bodies to bring some back to life ?

Yes.

You asked:

This is the sheep and goats judment, right ? If yes, isn't this used today quite often for a works based salvation ? Any thoughts on this ?

Yes, this is the sheep and goats judgment. Yes, some churches today misconstrue this. However, this is what scripture says:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: AND THE DEAD WERE JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (KJV)

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and THEY WERE JUDGED EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

We presently live in an age of grace. We believe in Christ through faith because we cannot see God in this dimension.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

When Christ returns to the earth, everyone will be able to see him, so that is why the judgment is based on works, not faith. This does not apply to believers. Many Christians have been persecuted, tortured and killed for their faith. Many others have lived and spent their lives believing in Christ and died. That is why I said on a previous post that judgment day is reward day for a believer.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

At judgment day, those who God judges as having righteous works (the sheep) will be granted eternal life, just like the believers:

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Those who God judges as having no works or unrighteous works (the goats) go to the 'lake of fire'.

You asked:

Whoops, I got lost again here. Is this the sheep and goats judgment again.

The Day of the Lord, is a thousand years long and it is a time of teaching. Where the confusion of many comes from is not rightfully dividing the Word regarding this subject. In 1Thess 4, starting at verse 13 Paul explains where the dead are. What Paul was telling the Thessalonians is that, if you believe that Christ died and rose again from the dead, then you better believe that all those who have believed and died since are with Him. They are not lying in tombs or in urns. Remember:

1Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

God hasn't even destroyed Satan yet. So yes, this is the sheep and goats judgment that I wanted to emphasize. All of God's children will be given a chance to learn the truth. This isn't a second chance because many didn't have a chance, either never knowing Christ, knowing Christ and rejecting Him or being wrongly taught about Christ. The alternative is that God just destroy both the sheep and goats that never had faith but we know from scripture that God is fair.

Hope that helps you Sudsy.
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: Question about the "rapture" or lack thereof

#20

Post by Sudsy » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:37 pm

Yes that helps a great deal. Is there a label for this belief and/or what Christian faith group do you know teaches this ? I find it very interesting and will look into it further. It does reflect a fairness that other beliefs I have heard does not appear to offer. Glad you shared this !

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