Trouble in the Holy Land

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Trouble in the Holy Land

#1

Post by Dazed and Confused » Fri May 07, 2010 10:03 pm

We know from scripture that Israel is God's prophetic time piece and the clock appears to be moving faster these days. Currently Israel finds herself more isolated and distant from the U.S. and it seems that it has to play out this way for future events to unfold. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
By Caroline Glick
CarolineGlick.com

So much for US President Barack Obama's famed powers of persuasion. At the UN's Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty review conference which opened this week, the Obama administration managed to lose control over the agenda before the conference even started.

Obama administration officials said they intended to use the conference as a platform to mount international pressure on Iran to stop its illicit nuclear proliferation activities. But even before the conference began, with a little prodding from Egypt, the administration agreed that instead of focusing on Iran, the conference would adopt Iran's chosen agenda: attacking Israel for its alleged nuclear arsenal.

Last week the Wall Street Journal reported that US officials were conducting negotiations with Egypt about Egypt's demand that the NPT review conference call for sanctions against Israel for refusing to join the NPT as a non-nuclear state. The Journal quoted a senior administration official involved in the discussions saying, "We've made a proposal to them [Egypt] that goes beyond what the U.S. has been willing to do before."

Among other possibilities, that proposal may have included a US agreement to appoint a UN envoy responsible for organizing a UN conference calling for the Greater Middle East to become a nuclear-free zone. In diplomatese, "Middle East nuclear-free zone" is a well-accepted euphemism for stripping Israel of its purported nuclear capability while turning a blind eye to Iranian, Syrian and other Islamic nuclear weapons programs. Egypt's demand, which it convinced more than a hundred members of the Non-Aligned bloc to sign onto, is for Israel to open its nuclear installations to international inspectors as a first step towards unilateral nuclear disarmament.

On Wednesday the US joined the other four permanent members of the Security Council in signing a statement calling for a nuclear-free Middle East and urging Israel, Pakistan and India to accede to the NPT as non-nuclear states. Following the US's lead, on Thursday Yukiya Amano, the new Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency wrote a letter to IAEA member states asking for their suggestions for how to convince Israel to sign the NPT.

So as Iran - an NPT signatory - makes a mockery of the treaty by building nuclear weapons in contempt of its treaty obligations, the US has actively supported Iran's bid to use the NPT review conference as yet another UN forum for bashing Israel.

It bears recalling that the primary goal of the NPT is to prevent nuclear proliferation. From the amount of attention Israel is receiving at the NPT review conference, you could easily get the impression that Israel's purported nuclear arsenal is the gravest proliferation threat in the world today. But history shows that this is nonsense.

Israel's alleged nuclear arsenal, which it has reportedly fielded for four decades, has not led to a regional nuclear arms race. Notwithstanding their protestations to the contrary, Israel's neighbors fully recognize that the purpose of Israel's undeclared nuclear arsenal is to guarantee Israel's survival and consequently only threatens those who would attack the Jewish state with the intention of annihilating it. This is why although it is four decades old; Israel's undeclared nuclear arsenal has never caused a regional nuclear arms race. It has never harmed or called into question the relevance or usefulness of the NPT's international non-proliferation agenda. Moreover, as a non-signatory to the NPT, Israel has the right to develop a nuclear program.

Iran on the other hand gave up that right when it joined the NPT regime. So too, in sharp contrast to Israel's alleged program, it is clear that Iran's nuclear project is aggressive rather than defensive. Consequently, it is universally recognized that if Iran becomes a nuclear power, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other states will begin developing their own nuclear arsenals in short order. That is, it is absolutely clear that if the NPT is to have any relevance in the coming years, if there is to be any hope that counter-proliferation regimes can be useful; preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons must be its signatories' chief aim.

But due to the Obama administration's diplomatic fecklessness and ideological blinders, administration officials were incapable of making these points. And so, instead through its actions, the administration has advanced the cause of nuclear proliferation. The US has now joined the ranks of fools who claim that nuclear weapons in the hands of states like the US and Israel are as problematic as nuclear weapons in the hands of states like Iran and North Korea.

But then, in the end it makes no difference that the US has followed Iran's lead at the NPT conference. Even if the administration had managed to make Iran's nuclear weapons program the focus of debate, it wouldn't have mattered because diplomacy is no longer a relevant tool for preventing Iran from becoming a nuclear power. Appeasement has failed. Sanctions are dead in the water in the Security Council.

And even if the Security Council passes a sanctions resolution, they will have no impact on Iran's behavior. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad made that much clear in his speech on Monday and in subsequent remarks to the media. As he put it, "While we do not welcome sanctions, we do not fear them either. Sanctions cannot stop the Iranian nation."

What all of this demonstrates is that the diplomatic track - from appeasement to sanctions - is irrelevant for contending with Iran's nuclear program. The only way to stop Iran from acquiring nuclear bombs is to use military force to destroy or severely damage its nuclear installations.

And this of course is something Obama will not do. His begging-to-shake-hands policy towards Iran on the one hand and his iron fist policy towards Israel on the other makes it absolutely clear that Obama will do nothing to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power. Rather than correct his abysmal failures, Obama seeks to hide them by minimizing the seriousness of the threat.

In remarks to the media this week, a White House official downplayed the Iranian threat. He told the Financial Times that Iran's "nuclear clock has slowed down. They are not making dramatic technical progress given the difficulties they are facing in their [uranium] enrichment program and the fact that their efforts to build secret facilities have been disclosed."

The fact that the US's published intelligence estimates of Iran's nuclear program contradict this claim didn't seem to faze the official.

The US's abdication of its responsibility as the leader of the free world to prevent the most dangerous regimes from acquiring the most dangerous weapons means that the responsibility for preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons has fallen on Israel's shoulders. Only Israel has the means and the will to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power. And the message the NPT follies convey is that Israel must develop contingency plans for attacking Iran as quickly as possible.

Daily reports of weapons build-ups and military exercises in Iran and among Iran's clients Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas expose the contours of their war plans.

Syria and Iran have armed Hizbullah with some 40,000 missiles and rockets, including hundreds of Scud missiles and guided surface-to-surface solid fuel M600 missiles with a 250 km range and this week Hizbullah threatened to attack Israel with non-conventional weapons. Syria itself has a formidable chemical and biological arsenal as well as a massive artillery and missile force at its disposal.

As for Hamas, since Operation Cast Lead Iran's Palestinian proxy Hamas has expanded its own missile arsenal. Today it reportedly has projectiles capable of reaching Tel Aviv and beyond.

As for Iran, as its seemingly endless military exercises make clear, the mullocracy has the capacity to use conventional weapons to imperil global oil shipments from the Persian Gulf. So too, this week's report that Osama Bin Laden may have decamped to Iran in 2003 merely served to underline Iran's ability to utilize jihadist terror forces throughout the world.

From the open preparations for war that Iran and its clients have undertaken, it is clear that if they initiate the next round of fighting they will fight a four front war against Israel. That war will be dominated by missile attacks against the entire country aimed at breaking the will of the Israeli people while forcing the IDF to divert vital resources away from Israel's primary target - Iran's nuclear installations - to contend with Iran's proxies' missile stores.

As they consider Israel's options going forward, Israel's political and military leaders have to take two considerations into account. First, the side that initiates the conflict will be the side that controls the battle space. And second, there is a real possibility that the Obama administration will refuse to resupply Israel with vital weapons systems in the course of the war. The fact that Israel will be roundly condemned by the UN and its component parts is a certainty regardless of who initiates the conflict and therefore is irrelevant for operational planning.

Armed with these understandings, it is apparent that Israeli contingency plans for war must have limited goals and should be guided by the overarching aim of beginning and ending the war quickly. Luckily, Israel excels at limited, swift campaigns.

Responding to one of Syrian President Bashar Assad's recent threats, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman promised last month that if Assad attacks Israel, Israel will bring down his regime. While bringing about the utter defeat of Iran's regional proxies is a reasonable goal, it cannot be Israel's goal in the coming war.

In the coming war, Israel will have only one goal: to destroy or seriously damage Iran's nuclear installations. Every resource turned against Iran's proxies must be aimed at facilitating that goal. That is, the only thing Israel should seek to accomplish in contending with Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas is to prevent them from diverting Israeli resources away from attacking Iran's nuclear installations.

This means that Israel must launch a preemptive strike against Hizbullah's missiles and missile launchers, Syria's missiles, artillery and launchers, and Hamas's missiles and launchers. As for their short-range rockets, Israel should do its best to intercept them and otherwise hunker down to weather the storm of Katyushas and Qassams. Life on the homefront won't be easy. But it won't be impossible either, as we saw in 2006.

Almost every assessment of a possible Israeli strike on Iran's nuclear installations has assumed that Israel will use its air force to strike. All that can be said of that analysis is that, just as there is more than one way to skin a cat, so there is more than one way to destroy Iran's nuclear installations. An Israeli strike should utilize all of them to keep the Iranians off balance and on the defensive.

These are dangerous times. Iran, which seeks to position itself as a regional superpower, has been emboldened by the Obama administration's abdication of US global leadership. Only Israel can prevent Iran from endangering the world. But time is of the essence.
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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#2

Post by cslewislover » Fri May 07, 2010 10:47 pm

Any country that has neighbors that continually say that they will destroy that country, can't be blamed for wanting to defend itself, for wanting to survive. What a hard choice Israel has. Is there any good reason for the UN to exist any longer? I've read of many cases where they don't help when things get tough, and it doesn't seem like other programs are being carried out as originally intended, but then I don't have time to keep up with what all the UN is doing.
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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#3

Post by Gman » Sat May 08, 2010 7:45 am

Just an fyi... There is a lot of talk among the prophets that whenever you curse Israel there are dire consequences for it, Genesis 12:3. And it seems that the US appears to be guilty of that. So far we have seen some pretty strange things happening recently. Floods, oil spills, earthquakes, wars, volcanoes, threats, and now bees dieing in the millions....

"Data from the US Department of Agriculture show a 29 percent drop in beehives in 2009, following a 36 percent decline in 2008 and a 32 percent fall in 2007."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... fec28e.8b1

And now maybe famines...

Coincidence?
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Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#4

Post by Telstra Robs » Sun May 09, 2010 3:36 am

cslewislover wrote:Any country that has neighbors that continually say that they will destroy that country, can't be blamed for wanting to defend itself, for wanting to survive. What a hard choice Israel has. Is there any good reason for the UN to exist any longer? I've read of many cases where they don't help when things get tough, and it doesn't seem like other programs are being carried out as originally intended, but then I don't have time to keep up with what all the UN is doing.
Lewis, the behaviour of the Arab states surrounding Israel is caused by the behaviour of Israel.

Israel conquered large portions of Palestinian territory, territory the British Mandate of Palestine did not award it. This would be forgivable, even alright IF Israel gave the Palestinians in the conquered territories citizenship and allowed them to become functioning members of Israeli society. Instead, Israel builds houses on their land and moves people onto their land, as if they're trying to push the Palestinians out. They've closed the boarders to the Gaza Strip (the modern equivalent of Philistine). The Palestinians in Gaza cannot get access to any resources because of boarder closures by the Egyptians and the Israelis, so they have to bring them through lifts to underground areas.

Israel has behaved appallingly to the Palestinians. You claim they cannot be forgiven for their actions, but you must look at the other side of the coin before making such a statement.

This is the source of tension in the region. In both 2002 and 2007, Saudi Arabia extended a peace treaty to Israel, with the condition that Israel leave the occupied territories and reduce its boarders to what they were before the 1967 war. Israel did not make a reply either time.

Israel is so paranoid about losing its national identity as a Jewish Homeland that it refuses to leave conquered territories or offer those in conquered territories citizenship.

Believe you me, I am certainly against the behaviour of the Arab League. But you must look at the evil of both sides and understand the motives. If you did something bad, you would not want people to think of you as a crazy madman who did it without motive, would you?

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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#5

Post by Gman » Sun May 09, 2010 10:29 pm

Telstra Robs wrote: Lewis, the behaviour of the Arab states surrounding Israel is caused by the behaviour of Israel.

Israel conquered large portions of Palestinian territory, territory the British Mandate of Palestine did not award it. This would be forgivable, even alright IF Israel gave the Palestinians in the conquered territories citizenship and allowed them to become functioning members of Israeli society. Instead, Israel builds houses on their land and moves people onto their land, as if they're trying to push the Palestinians out. They've closed the boarders to the Gaza Strip (the modern equivalent of Philistine). The Palestinians in Gaza cannot get access to any resources because of boarder closures by the Egyptians and the Israelis, so they have to bring them through lifts to underground areas.
That is a bunch of malarkey... There has ALWAYS been a presence of Jews in Israel. Always.. Even after the diasporas. They are not occupiers or conquerors. The British Mandate actually promised a much larger land to Israel but the Arabs wouldn't have it. Instead they battled against Israel and the UN therefore forfeiting their land rights. This Israelis did not start any war.. In fact after the 6 day war the Israelis conquered land all the way down to the Sinai but later gave it back. They didn't have to but they did because they wanted peace.
Telstra Robs wrote:Israel has behaved appallingly to the Palestinians. You claim they cannot be forgiven for their actions, but you must look at the other side of the coin before making such a statement.
What?? How about jobs? Israel always had full intentions of allowing Palestinians to work in Israel. And many still do today. Before that there was absolutely nothing in Israel. No jobs or anything. Just a barren wasteland. They provided jobs for them...
Telstra Robs wrote:This is the source of tension in the region. In both 2002 and 2007, Saudi Arabia extended a peace treaty to Israel, with the condition that Israel leave the occupied territories and reduce its boarders to what they were before the 1967 war. Israel did not make a reply either time.

Israel is so paranoid about losing its national identity as a Jewish Homeland that it refuses to leave conquered territories or offer those in conquered territories citizenship.
Paranoid? Again you are misinformed... What about the Gaza strip they gave up for the Oslo Accords? The minute Israel gave up those lands what did the Palestinians do? They used those lands to launch missiles into Israel. What would you do if you gave up your land to your neighbor and they used that land to launch missiles into your house? Would you be cautious?
Telstra Robs wrote:Believe you me, I am certainly against the behaviour of the Arab League. But you must look at the evil of both sides and understand the motives. If you did something bad, you would not want people to think of you as a crazy madman who did it without motive, would you?
The Palestinians have no intentions of settling disputes with the Israelis. They want a Palestinian state without any Israel.. That is why they won't form it because then they would have to recognize the Israelis borders.

And speaking of evil.. What kind of a nut job would dress a baby as a suicide bomber?

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Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#6

Post by cslewislover » Sun May 09, 2010 11:22 pm

Telstra Robs wrote: Israel has behaved appallingly to the Palestinians. You claim they cannot be forgiven for their actions, but you must look at the other side of the coin before making such a statement.

This is the source of tension in the region. In both 2002 and 2007, Saudi Arabia extended a peace treaty to Israel, with the condition that Israel leave the occupied territories and reduce its boarders to what they were before the 1967 war. Israel did not make a reply either time.

Israel is so paranoid about losing its national identity as a Jewish Homeland that it refuses to leave conquered territories or offer those in conquered territories citizenship.

Believe you me, I am certainly against the behaviour of the Arab League. But you must look at the evil of both sides and understand the motives. If you did something bad, you would not want people to think of you as a crazy madman who did it without motive, would you?
I never said anything about someone not being able to be forgiven. y:-/

Israel may have done some bad things, but after they became a country - based on UN agreement - is was the Palestinians (and Arabs, I believe) who attacked them. That is why Palestine was not made a country at that same time, after World War II. Time and time again, militant Middle Eastern countries and terrorists have said that they will destroy Israel. Israel does not do the same. Why should Israel give the land back from the 1967 war??? I think that is so funny. They get attacked, they win - against a lot of odds, I think - and they're supposed to just hand everything back? Why? I need to refresh my memory on some of the territories, but when it comes to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, I think it's pretty amazing that Israel has been as compliant as it has.

In any case, it's a religious and spiritual battle. Otherwise, it makes no sense. There weren't many people in that land at the time that Israel was made a nation. More recently, when Israel closed its borders, many Palestinians preferred to stay inside Israel. I believe Gabrielman is giving some links to some history of this region.
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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#7

Post by Gabrielman » Sun May 09, 2010 11:29 pm

Hamas & Israel Related
Israel and the Palestinians
On This Day Israel Becomes a Nation
Israeli War of Independence
Here, educate yourself Telstra.

Oh and just so you know, all those who attacked Israel hid behind women and children so Israel could not fight back. When Israel defended itself the liberal media attacked them, for self defense. Oh sure, why should they defend themselves, why not just let them all be killed. Oh wait, that is what Iran wants!!!!!! I have no pity, or sympathy for those who attack Israel.
Telstra Robs wrote: Israel has behaved appallingly to the Palestinians. You claim they cannot be forgiven for their actions, but you must look at the other side of the coin before making such a statement.
No the Palestinians have always, and will always, hate Israel. In fact the people of the Gaza strip, before the boarders were closed (and they should be closed!) Said that they were with the terrorist organizations, who just happen to be the ones attacking mind you, and they all want the Jews dead and gone. You think that there is any justice in what the Palestinians do? That's laughable at best. Hamas, a terrorist organization, bombed Israel over and over again while hiding behind children. They hid in hospitals full of patients. They attacked over and over again. You think this was for some land that Israel took? No it is because Israel exists, they will not be happy until Israel is gone. They hide behind the lies that they just want their land back.

Gman, good post as always! It is unbelievable how people can have sympathy for these people. I have seen many photos and news clips with kids holding guns and having bombs strapped to them while their parents scream "Death to Israel".

One more thing Telstra, why don't you try not assuming that Vicki is saying things that she is not. She always tries to be unbiased and she does a great job at presenting the facts without opinion. She didn't mention anything about forgiving.
Telstra Robs wrote:You claim they cannot be forgiven for their actions, but you must look at the other side of the coin before making such a statement.
as you seem to think she did. And you took her short little post and extrapolated it out to be more than what it was. Why did you not say anything about Gman or Dazed and Confused. No instead you singled her out. I do not approve, so don't do it again.
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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#8

Post by Telstra Robs » Mon May 10, 2010 2:26 am

Gabrielman, every comment was different and Lewis was the only one who posted something I disagreed with. Dazed and Confused posted a quote opening a debate. Those words were not his/hers, but that of a website, book or other person. Gman posted something about the US having problems for apparently cursing Israel. Lewis was the only one who posted something that I disagreed with. I never meant to insult or upset anyone, but meant to correct. I am sorry if anyone felt upset with my post.

Lewis posted something on a topic I feel very strongly about. I am sorry for the way I responded, and if you give me time, I shall respond to all your comments. But first I must apologize. My strong feelings come from a previous war a few years ago. Israel had a suspicion that Hamas was smuggling weapons into the Gaza strip. They blockaded Gaza. Basic supplies that the Palestinians needed could not get into Gaza; food and medical supplies for example. Israel would not listen to the UN and the US would not listen to the Palestinians. Hamas began infrequently bombing Israel. In response, Israel shelled a number of targets in Gaza, such as hospitals and schools. They moved their tanks in. Innocent children were killed. No my friends, not all Palestinians are terrorists. In fact, very few are. Israel had no excuse for what they did. They were able to attack military targets and police stations which make sense, so why did they have to target the hospitals and schools? They thought someone was hiding there? Considering that they had troops in Gaza City, wouldn't it have been better to preserve human life and extract said targets with soldiers and not with bombs?

Now my friends, I will attempt to answer all of your arguments.
That is a bunch of malarkey... There has ALWAYS been a presence of Jews in Israel. Always.. Even after the diasporas. They are not occupiers or conquerors. The British Mandate actually promised a much larger land to Israel but the Arabs wouldn't have it. Instead they battled against Israel and the UN therefore forfeiting their land rights. This Israelis did not start any war.. In fact after the 6 day war the Israelis conquered land all the way down to the Sinai but later gave it back. They didn't have to but they did because they wanted peace.
First of all, it was originally inhabited by several tribes whom God told the Israelis to evict. But that's not important. Of the Israelis living in Israel at the moment, very few have descendants living in Israel past World War I. In past times, a large quantity Israelis moved out of Israel to various countries in Europe (who came back after a thousand years or so). Though it is probably not that germane, it is important to note that these people had not been in their land for over one thousand years. The Palestinians (of whom are most likely of some Israeli descent, or Philistinian, depending on the area) most likely see the Israelis as foreign Europeans (these feelings not helped by the Suez Crisis, a war between Egypt and a coalition force of Britain, France and Israel, where Britain and France got assistance from Israel in conquering the Sinai in 1956). The Palestinians are wrong in mistreating the Israelis who have returned to their land, but it is incorrect to assume that they have had eternal existence there. If that were the case, the Holocaust would not have taken place (as Hitler was killing the Jews in Europe; had they been in Israel, he would have not been able to reach them and if he did, it would have certainly been easier for the Allies to know, who didn't find out till the very end).

The Six Day war in part had causes dating back to the Suez Crisis when British and French governments assisted Israel in conquering the Sinai peninsula from the Egyptians, as they feared their assets in the Suez Canal (the only canal that allows you to go from the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean, having to circumnavigate Africa otherwise) would be lost to the Egyptians. A British-French-Israeli force conquered the Sinai in 1956 in the said Suez Crisis.

In 1964, Israel began to divert water from Jordan, reducing crucial flow to the Hashemite Territory. In response, Arab states began to construct a dam (in their own territory) to restrict flow of the river that the Israelis were diverting to a dam in Jordan and Syria. The diversion works would have reduced Israeli water supply by 11%. In response, Israel used their military to attack the diversion works. The attacks by Israel sparked a chain of events leading to the Six Day War.
What?? How about jobs? Israel always had full intentions of allowing Palestinians to work in Israel. And many still do today. Before that there was absolutely nothing in Israel. No jobs or anything. Just a barren wasteland. They provided jobs for them...
No jobs? A barren wasteland? You cannot live in such a place. Emigration would have left it with an extremely low population when Israel conquered it. Such territories included East Jerusalem (not given to the Israelis by the UN), something with obvious value and worth before conquest and the Sinai peninsula, which includes the Suez Canal, a very, very rich and important asset.

Paranoid? Again you are misinformed... What about the Gaza strip they gave up for the Oslo Accords? The minute Israel gave up those lands what did the Palestinians do? They used those lands to launch missiles into Israel. What would you do if you gave up your land to your neighbor and they used that land to launch missiles into your house? Would you be cautious?
The Gaza strip never ever belonged to Israel. It belonged to the Philistines, and then the Palestinians. As I mentioned before, they had little food and medical supplies, ships bringing them were blocked by an Israeli blockade over an alleged weapons smuggling. If you stole that same land from your neighbour and then prevented him from eating or bringing medication to his home after giving back what you stole while you watched him starve over something that you have no proof of, does that then give him the right to launch missiles into your land?
The Palestinians have no intentions of settling disputes with the Israelis. They want a Palestinian state without any Israel.. That is why they won't form it because then they would have to recognize the Israelis borders.

And speaking of evil.. What kind of a nut job would dress a baby as a suicide bomber?
The Palestinians as well as the rest of the world have proposed two solutions to the problem. The One State solution, which suggests that Israel and Palestine unify to be one big state where Palestinians and Israelis are equal has been rejected by the Israelis. The Two State solution suggests separate states for Israel and Palestine, but Israel refuses to give up the eastern half of Jerusalem in the West Bank and without this part of Jerusalem for a capital, the Palestinians have rejected this solution. We must leave to them to figure it out.

The Palestinians are not all terrorists. Many are poor people who are trying to live their lives. They don't all have Israel and most certainly wouldn't strap bombs to their babies! That is an extremely morbid thought! No matter what your religion, no matter what your hatred or anger, it takes great zeal to want to sacrifice your own child. No sane person would do that. It is a disgusting thought.

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Moving on to the next post.
Oh and just so you know, all those who attacked Israel hid behind women and children so Israel could not fight back. When Israel defended itself the liberal media attacked them, for self defense. Oh sure, why should they defend themselves, why not just let them all be killed. Oh wait, that is what Iran wants!!!!!! I have no pity, or sympathy for those who attack Israel.
The actions of a few who attacked Israel are heinous indeed. The actions and words of the Arab and Iranian governments, especially the hatred (which is on both sides) are things which I condemn. However, these are not the actions of all the Palestinians. Many people in this part of the world have evil thoughts towards Israel. However, many more don't. Instead of saying "that is what Iran wants", perhaps you should say "that is what the people who feel hatred for Israel and live in Iran want".

Bombing hospitals and schools are not the right answer. What about the Sampson Option? Perhaps that's something you should research my friend.
No the Palestinians have always, and will always, hate Israel. In fact the people of the Gaza strip, before the boarders were closed (and they should be closed!) Said that they were with the terrorist organizations, who just happen to be the ones attacking mind you, and they all want the Jews dead and gone. You think that there is any justice in what the Palestinians do? That's laughable at best. Hamas, a terrorist organization, bombed Israel over and over again while hiding behind children. They hid in hospitals full of patients. They attacked over and over again. You think this was for some land that Israel took? No it is because Israel exists, they will not be happy until Israel is gone. They hide behind the lies that they just want their land back.
Mate, please prove that these are lies and that they want Israel gone. There have been in the past many Arab leaders (from countries other than Palestinian ones) who have expressed such thoughts, and there are still many terrorist organisations who do. However, there have been many peace proposals (on both sides AND from third parties) which show that both sides are attempting to end this useless conflict.

Here are some examples:

- Camp David Summit (2000): Israel cedes 95% of West Bank to new Palestine State. Israel retains indefinite control over 5% of the West Bank. Palestine rejects offer as Israeli checkpoints throughout Palestinian territory do not allow free movement and Israel and that the Barak's offer stated that Arafat forgo the "Right of Return" for Palestinian refugees who fled Israel in 1948.

- Taba Summit (2001): Barak proposes offer where there would be no indefinitely Israeli controlled areas. It was considered a good starting basis for further talks. Negotiation ended when Barak's left wing party was voted out and a more conservative party was voted in.

- Road Map for Peace (by EU, UN, US and Russia): Made a proposal, rejected by the Israeli government who made 14 amendments, which were considered unacceptable by the Palestinian authorities. The proposal called for a cease in Israeli settlement construction and a cease in hostilities.

- Arab Peace Initiative (proposed by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia): Proposed a return to United Nations pre1967 boarders and that a new Palestinian state would be created with East Jerusalem as its capitol. Rejected by Israel.

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Once again Lewis, I apologise for taking some things out of context. I let my feelings get in the way of what happened. I will try to take a step back and think things a bit more over before making such a post. Hug? y>:D<

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EDIT:
And to all, there is probably a chance I once again have argued subjectively and not objectively. I have a very bad habit of this (this is not an attempted excuse btw). If this has happened, I apologise.

Articles for future reference:

Christian Science Monitor (Many foodstuffs banned)

Maan News (Massive amounts of foodstuffs not allowed past blockade expired and must be burned)

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Furthermore, instead of arguing about who is wrong and who is right in this conflict, perhaps it would be better to discuss solutions to the conflict of which both sides would be happy?

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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#9

Post by Dazed and Confused » Mon May 10, 2010 11:52 am

cslewislover wrote:Any country that has neighbors that continually say that they will destroy that country, can't be blamed for wanting to defend itself, for wanting to survive. What a hard choice Israel has. Is there any good reason for the UN to exist any longer? I've read of many cases where they don't help when things get tough, and it doesn't seem like other programs are being carried out as originally intended, but then I don't have time to keep up with what all the UN is doing.
In Israel they refer to the U.N. as the "United Nothing" or "Un-Necessary", how appropriate. :ewink:
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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#10

Post by Dazed and Confused » Mon May 10, 2010 12:06 pm

Gman wrote:Just an fyi... There is a lot of talk among the prophets that whenever you curse Israel there are dire consequences for it, Genesis 12:3. And it seems that the US appears to be guilty of that. So far we have seen some pretty strange things happening recently. Floods, oil spills, earthquakes, wars, volcanoes, threats, and now bees dieing in the millions....

"Data from the US Department of Agriculture show a 29 percent drop in beehives in 2009, following a 36 percent decline in 2008 and a 32 percent fall in 2007."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... fec28e.8b1

And now maybe famines...

Coincidence?
With God there are no coincidences, "I will curse them that curse thee". When the Germans first started to round up the Jews they enclosed them behind walls and any Jew attempting to climb over was shot. After the war some Germans were enclosed behind the Berlin wall and anyone trying to climb over was shot. Mirror image.

Some other examples of God's promise to those who curse Israel are given by Bill Koenig in his book "Eye to Eye - Facing the Consequences of Dividing Israel" https://secure.watch.org/resources/
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#11

Post by Byblos » Mon May 10, 2010 1:02 pm

Telstra Robs wrote: Now my friends, I will attempt to answer all of your arguments.
That is a bunch of malarkey... There has ALWAYS been a presence of Jews in Israel. Always.. Even after the diasporas. They are not occupiers or conquerors. The British Mandate actually promised a much larger land to Israel but the Arabs wouldn't have it. Instead they battled against Israel and the UN therefore forfeiting their land rights. This Israelis did not start any war.. In fact after the 6 day war the Israelis conquered land all the way down to the Sinai but later gave it back. They didn't have to but they did because they wanted peace.
First of all, it was originally inhabited by several tribes whom God told the Israelis to evict. But that's not important. Of the Israelis living in Israel at the moment, very few have descendants living in Israel past World War I. In past times, a large quantity Israelis moved out of Israel to various countries in Europe (who came back after a thousand years or so). Though it is probably not that germane, it is important to note that these people had not been in their land for over one thousand years.
Not true. Israel/Palestine has always been inhabited by Jews of some count since biblical times. Their claim to parts of that land is at least contemporaneous if not predating any other group.
Telstra Robs wrote:The Palestinians (of whom are most likely of some Israeli descent, or Philistinian, depending on the area) most likely see the Israelis as foreign Europeans (these feelings not helped by the Suez Crisis, a war between Egypt and a coalition force of Britain, France and Israel, where Britain and France got assistance from Israel in conquering the Sinai in 1956). The Palestinians are wrong in mistreating the Israelis who have returned to their land, but it is incorrect to assume that they have had eternal existence there. If that were the case, the Holocaust would not have taken place (as Hitler was killing the Jews in Europe; had they been in Israel, he would have not been able to reach them and if he did, it would have certainly been easier for the Allies to know, who didn't find out till the very end).
That is some warped logic there my friend. First, you assume there were no Jews in Israel/Palestine for a period of time, an assumption I would love for you to somehow back up; then as a so-called proof of said assumption you offer the fact that the Holocaust occurred in Germany instead of Israel? Are you serious? The Holocaust didn't happen in Germany because there were no Jews in Israel, it happened in Germany because that's where the seeds of hatred and antisemitism festered the most.
Telstra Robs wrote:The Six Day war in part had causes dating back to the Suez Crisis when British and French governments assisted Israel in conquering the Sinai peninsula from the Egyptians, as they feared their assets in the Suez Canal (the only canal that allows you to go from the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean, having to circumnavigate Africa otherwise) would be lost to the Egyptians. A British-French-Israeli force conquered the Sinai in 1956 in the said Suez Crisis.

In 1964, Israel began to divert water from Jordan, reducing crucial flow to the Hashemite Territory. In response, Arab states began to construct a dam (in their own territory) to restrict flow of the river that the Israelis were diverting to a dam in Jordan and Syria. The diversion works would have reduced Israeli water supply by 11%. In response, Israel used their military to attack the diversion works. The attacks by Israel sparked a chain of events leading to the Six Day War.
In 1964 Israel began to divert water because it is her birthright to use the water sources available in the region even if the water sources are not part of its own territories. Please read up on the U.N.'s charters on international water rights. The fact is that the Arab states beginning with Jordan were choking the life out of the Israelis by withholding such rights of water usage.
Telstra Robs wrote:
What?? How about jobs? Israel always had full intentions of allowing Palestinians to work in Israel. And many still do today. Before that there was absolutely nothing in Israel. No jobs or anything. Just a barren wasteland. They provided jobs for them...
No jobs? A barren wasteland? You cannot live in such a place. Emigration would have left it with an extremely low population when Israel conquered it. Such territories included East Jerusalem (not given to the Israelis by the UN), something with obvious value and worth before conquest and the Sinai peninsula, which includes the Suez Canal, a very, very rich and important asset.
Last I heard the Sinai peninsula was returned to its rightful owners once its existence was recognized and a peace deal was struck. Does that tell you something my friend? Look at the historical record. Every time Israel was approached with a sincere offer for peace a peace deal was struck and ceased territory was returned. In fact, Israel returned territory it had occupied even without a peace deal and that included water sources Israel desperately needed. Can you name this territory?

As far as jobs, are concerned, Palestinians who wish to live in Israel under Israeli law have all the rights and privileges Israeli citizens do including jobs, voting, joining the military, and representation in the Knesset. Show me a single Arab country that have the same rights for Jews in their country.
Telstra Robs wrote:
Paranoid? Again you are misinformed... What about the Gaza strip they gave up for the Oslo Accords? The minute Israel gave up those lands what did the Palestinians do? They used those lands to launch missiles into Israel. What would you do if you gave up your land to your neighbor and they used that land to launch missiles into your house? Would you be cautious?
The Gaza strip never ever belonged to Israel. It belonged to the Philistines, and then the Palestinians. As I mentioned before, they had little food and medical supplies, ships bringing them were blocked by an Israeli blockade over an alleged weapons smuggling. If you stole that same land from your neighbour and then prevented him from eating or bringing medication to his home after giving back what you stole while you watched him starve over something that you have no proof of, does that then give him the right to launch missiles into your land?
And Israel never claimed to have owned or even annexed the Gaza strip. It was occupied for security reasons, pure and simple. When the rockets stop flying from Gaza perhaps Israel will leave entirely and lift the blockade.
Telstra Robs wrote:
The Palestinians have no intentions of settling disputes with the Israelis. They want a Palestinian state without any Israel.. That is why they won't form it because then they would have to recognize the Israelis borders.

And speaking of evil.. What kind of a nut job would dress a baby as a suicide bomber?
The Palestinians as well as the rest of the world have proposed two solutions to the problem. The One State solution, which suggests that Israel and Palestine unify to be one big state where Palestinians and Israelis are equal has been rejected by the Israelis. The Two State solution suggests separate states for Israel and Palestine, but Israel refuses to give up the eastern half of Jerusalem in the West Bank and without this part of Jerusalem for a capital, the Palestinians have rejected this solution. We must leave to them to figure it out.
Make no mistake about it, Israel would love nothing more than to settle these disputes with its neighbors and live in peace. It has proven time and again its readiness to make concessions for the sake of peace, concessions that make sense. The right of return of Palestinian refugees from 1948 is a thorny issue but what most people fail to realize is that Israel is not opposed to the right of return into new Palestinian territories. But that's not what the Palestinians want. They want the right of return TO ISRAEL, where the refugees came from. That is simply not doable as it will tip the population scales WITHIN ISRAEL to a majority non-Jew, something no other ethnic country will accept. By example, it would be the same as permanently settling the Palestinian refugees in their host countries. Take Lebanon for example. There are over 500,000 Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, the majority of whom are Muslims. If they were to be assimilated into the country's population (of 4 million), a quarter of the country will immediately become of Palestinian origin. To say nothing of the fact that it will obliterate the delicate political balance between Christians and Muslims there.

As for other territories (parts of Gaza and the West Bank), Israel's stance is such that ok, they did build a lot of housing on these lands that may not be feasible to be given up but they are willing to trade other parts of land in return. But I don't see this as an obstacle to peace either; Israel will make the sacrifice of relocating the settlements given a real chance at peace.

As far as East Jerusalem, I really believe Israel will make the ultimate sacrifice and give up that piece of land for the sake of a lasting peace that includes all its neighbors recognizing Israel's right to exist. But they can't play that card unless and until they see a real chance for peace from the other side.
Telstra Robs wrote:The Palestinians are not all terrorists. Many are poor people who are trying to live their lives. They don't all have Israel and most certainly wouldn't strap bombs to their babies! That is an extremely morbid thought! No matter what your religion, no matter what your hatred or anger, it takes great zeal to want to sacrifice your own child. No sane person would do that. It is a disgusting thought.
And whoever said all the Palestinians are terrorists? But the fact remains they are the ones who voted Hamas and now they are being hijacked by their own leadership (namely Hamas, as Fatah is largely ineffectual as a partner in peace anyway) by the delusional promise of a Palestine free of Israel and free of Jews. Never gonna happen and the sooner they realize that the sooner we will have peace. But I wouldn't hold my breath though, their leadership is morally bankrupt.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Telstra Robs wrote:Moving on to the next post.
Oh and just so you know, all those who attacked Israel hid behind women and children so Israel could not fight back. When Israel defended itself the liberal media attacked them, for self defense. Oh sure, why should they defend themselves, why not just let them all be killed. Oh wait, that is what Iran wants!!!!!! I have no pity, or sympathy for those who attack Israel.
The actions of a few who attacked Israel are heinous indeed. The actions and words of the Arab and Iranian governments, especially the hatred (which is on both sides) are things which I condemn. However, these are not the actions of all the Palestinians. Many people in this part of the world have evil thoughts towards Israel. However, many more don't. Instead of saying "that is what Iran wants", perhaps you should say "that is what the people who feel hatred for Israel and live in Iran want".
The fact remains it was the Palestinian people who voted in a leadership that is sworn to the destruction of Israel. So long as negotiation cannot be done directly with all the people and so long as they are being represented by an Israel-hating group there will never be peace.

Telstra Robs wrote:
No the Palestinians have always, and will always, hate Israel. In fact the people of the Gaza strip, before the boarders were closed (and they should be closed!) Said that they were with the terrorist organizations, who just happen to be the ones attacking mind you, and they all want the Jews dead and gone. You think that there is any justice in what the Palestinians do? That's laughable at best. Hamas, a terrorist organization, bombed Israel over and over again while hiding behind children. They hid in hospitals full of patients. They attacked over and over again. You think this was for some land that Israel took? No it is because Israel exists, they will not be happy until Israel is gone. They hide behind the lies that they just want their land back.
Mate, please prove that these are lies and that they want Israel gone. There have been in the past many Arab leaders (from countries other than Palestinian ones) who have expressed such thoughts, and there are still many terrorist organisations who do. However, there have been many peace proposals (on both sides AND from third parties) which show that both sides are attempting to end this useless conflict.

Here are some examples:

- Camp David Summit (2000): Israel cedes 95% of West Bank to new Palestine State. Israel retains indefinite control over 5% of the West Bank. Palestine rejects offer as Israeli checkpoints throughout Palestinian territory do not allow free movement and Israel and that the Barak's offer stated that Arafat forgo the "Right of Return" for Palestinian refugees who fled Israel in 1948.

- Taba Summit (2001): Barak proposes offer where there would be no indefinitely Israeli controlled areas. It was considered a good starting basis for further talks. Negotiation ended when Barak's left wing party was voted out and a more conservative party was voted in.

- Road Map for Peace (by EU, UN, US and Russia): Made a proposal, rejected by the Israeli government who made 14 amendments, which were considered unacceptable by the Palestinian authorities. The proposal called for a cease in Israeli settlement construction and a cease in hostilities.

- Arab Peace Initiative (proposed by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia): Proposed a return to United Nations pre1967 boarders and that a new Palestinian state would be created with East Jerusalem as its capitol. Rejected by Israel.
You really need to go back and re-read why these peace initiatives all failed. It was never on the part of Israel, who made many concessions. It probably was not on the part of the Arab states in general either but it certainly was always on the part of the Palestinian leadership starting with the most morally corrupt one of them all, Yaser Arafat, who torpedoed the Oslo accord the next day after agreeing to it. Why? Because on top of his moral bankruptcy he was a coward at heart.
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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#12

Post by cslewislover » Mon May 10, 2010 1:12 pm

:clap: @ Byblos
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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#13

Post by Gman » Mon May 10, 2010 8:13 pm

Of course Byblos would know... ;)
Telstra Robs wrote: Basic supplies that the Palestinians needed could not get into Gaza; food and medical supplies for example. Israel would not listen to the UN and the US would not listen to the Palestinians. Hamas began infrequently bombing Israel. In response, Israel shelled a number of targets in Gaza, such as hospitals and schools. They moved their tanks in. Innocent children were killed. No my friends, not all Palestinians are terrorists. In fact, very few are. Israel had no excuse for what they did. They were able to attack military targets and police stations which make sense, so why did they have to target the hospitals and schools? They thought someone was hiding there? Considering that they had troops in Gaza City, wouldn't it have been better to preserve human life and extract said targets with soldiers and not with bombs?
No offense Robs, but it seems that you lack understanding of the situation in Israel.. There is no doubt that Israel has made some mistakes in the past, no doubt. But also everyone know that Hamas is guilty of using children as human shields..

Again there would be no killings, no deaths if groups like Hamas would lay down their weapons and stop these wars.. But they won't. In retaliation, people are going to get hurt and sometimes the innocent are apart of that group.
Telstra Robs wrote:First of all, it was originally inhabited by several tribes whom God told the Israelis to evict. But that's not important.
Ah not really... Don't forget that Jerusalem is the place where Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac. Long before the Canaanites were there..
Telstra Robs wrote:Of the Israelis living in Israel at the moment, very few have descendants living in Israel past World War I. In past times, a large quantity Israelis moved out of Israel to various countries in Europe (who came back after a thousand years or so). Though it is probably not that germane, it is important to note that these people had not been in their land for over one thousand years. The Palestinians (of whom are most likely of some Israeli descent, or Philistinian, depending on the area) most likely see the Israelis as foreign Europeans (these feelings not helped by the Suez Crisis, a war between Egypt and a coalition force of Britain, France and Israel, where Britain and France got assistance from Israel in conquering the Sinai in 1956). The Palestinians are wrong in mistreating the Israelis who have returned to their land, but it is incorrect to assume that they have had eternal existence there. If that were the case, the Holocaust would not have taken place (as Hitler was killing the Jews in Europe; had they been in Israel, he would have not been able to reach them and if he did, it would have certainly been easier for the Allies to know, who didn't find out till the very end).
Let's face it... That area was pretty much underdeveloped before the Israelis came. And their were no boundaries until the British came. But there has always been a Jewish presence in Israel. Sometimes not a big presence, but then again, no one was really living there in the first place.
Telstra Robs wrote:The Six Day war in part had causes dating back to the Suez Crisis when British and French governments assisted Israel in conquering the Sinai peninsula from the Egyptians, as they feared their assets in the Suez Canal (the only canal that allows you to go from the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean, having to circumnavigate Africa otherwise) would be lost to the Egyptians. A British-French-Israeli force conquered the Sinai in 1956 in the said Suez Crisis.

In 1964, Israel began to divert water from Jordan, reducing crucial flow to the Hashemite Territory. In response, Arab states began to construct a dam (in their own territory) to restrict flow of the river that the Israelis were diverting to a dam in Jordan and Syria. The diversion works would have reduced Israeli water supply by 11%. In response, Israel used their military to attack the diversion works. The attacks by Israel sparked a chain of events leading to the Six Day War.
Ah not so fast...

Actually it was the Arab states and their Headwater Diversion Plan that diverted the water before the Israelis began withdrawing their water. Again the Arabs started it...

"In 1964, Israel began withdrawing water from the Jordan River for its National Water Carrier, reducing the flow that reached Hashemite territory. The following year, the Arab states began construction of the Headwater Diversion Plan, which, once completed, would divert the waters of the Banias Stream before the water entered Israel and the Sea of Galilee, to flow instead into a dam at Mukhaiba for use by Jordan and Syria, and divert the waters of the Hasbani into the Litani River, in Lebanon.[16] The diversion works would have reduced the installed capacity of Israel's carrier by about 35%, and Israel's overall water supply by about 11%."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_day_war#Water_dispute
Telstra Robs wrote:No jobs? A barren wasteland? You cannot live in such a place. Emigration would have left it with an extremely low population when Israel conquered it. Such territories included East Jerusalem (not given to the Israelis by the UN), something with obvious value and worth before conquest and the Sinai peninsula, which includes the Suez Canal, a very, very rich and important asset.
Not sure where you are getting your facts but the Israelis don't own the Suez Canal, it's shared..
Telstra Robs wrote:The Gaza strip never ever belonged to Israel. It belonged to the Philistines, and then the Palestinians. As I mentioned before, they had little food and medical supplies, ships bringing them were blocked by an Israeli blockade over an alleged weapons smuggling. If you stole that same land from your neighbour and then prevented him from eating or bringing medication to his home after giving back what you stole while you watched him starve over something that you have no proof of, does that then give him the right to launch missiles into your land?
Again the Palestinians forfeited their their rights to the land when they went against Israel. The Israelis had full intentions of giving the land to the Palestinians, however, the Palestinians forfeited those rights when they started bombing Israel. Much like what happened to Germany when it started WWII, it was cut in half by the Russians. Eventually it was given back to them however.
Telstra Robs wrote:The Palestinians as well as the rest of the world have proposed two solutions to the problem. The One State solution, which suggests that Israel and Palestine unify to be one big state where Palestinians and Israelis are equal has been rejected by the Israelis. The Two State solution suggests separate states for Israel and Palestine, but Israel refuses to give up the eastern half of Jerusalem in the West Bank and without this part of Jerusalem for a capital, the Palestinians have rejected this solution. We must leave to them to figure it out.

The Palestinians are not all terrorists. Many are poor people who are trying to live their lives. They don't all have Israel and most certainly wouldn't strap bombs to their babies! That is an extremely morbid thought! No matter what your religion, no matter what your hatred or anger, it takes great zeal to want to sacrifice your own child. No sane person would do that. It is a disgusting thought.
No not all the Palestinians are terrorists, however Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda are very large groups which seek to destroy Israel off the map using whatever means... Including suicide missions involving children. We have many records of this..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suic ... n_conflict
Telstra Robs wrote:The actions of a few who attacked Israel are heinous indeed. The actions and words of the Arab and Iranian governments, especially the hatred (which is on both sides) are things which I condemn. However, these are not the actions of all the Palestinians. Many people in this part of the world have evil thoughts towards Israel. However, many more don't. Instead of saying "that is what Iran wants", perhaps you should say "that is what the people who feel hatred for Israel and live in Iran want".
These are not small groups my friend... Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda happen to be very large groups..

Over a million for sure..

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/#p5
http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/#p7
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9126/?co=C005001#p7
Telstra Robs wrote:Bombing hospitals and schools are not the right answer. What about the Sampson Option? Perhaps that's something you should research my friend.
Using human shields are also not the answer either.. And as far as the Sampson option (nukes), that would only be used as a last resort.. Never to conquer, but as a defense..
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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#14

Post by Gman » Mon May 10, 2010 8:34 pm

Dazed and Confused wrote: With God there are no coincidences, "I will curse them that curse thee". When the Germans first started to round up the Jews they enclosed them behind walls and any Jew attempting to climb over was shot. After the war some Germans were enclosed behind the Berlin wall and anyone trying to climb over was shot. Mirror image.

Some other examples of God's promise to those who curse Israel are given by Bill Koenig in his book "Eye to Eye - Facing the Consequences of Dividing Israel" https://secure.watch.org/resources/
Agreed DC... ;)
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

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Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Trouble in the Holy Land

#15

Post by DannyM » Tue May 11, 2010 7:13 am

Byblos wrote:
Telstra Robs wrote: Now my friends, I will attempt to answer all of your arguments.
That is a bunch of malarkey... There has ALWAYS been a presence of Jews in Israel. Always.. Even after the diasporas. They are not occupiers or conquerors. The British Mandate actually promised a much larger land to Israel but the Arabs wouldn't have it. Instead they battled against Israel and the UN therefore forfeiting their land rights. This Israelis did not start any war.. In fact after the 6 day war the Israelis conquered land all the way down to the Sinai but later gave it back. They didn't have to but they did because they wanted peace.
First of all, it was originally inhabited by several tribes whom God told the Israelis to evict. But that's not important. Of the Israelis living in Israel at the moment, very few have descendants living in Israel past World War I. In past times, a large quantity Israelis moved out of Israel to various countries in Europe (who came back after a thousand years or so). Though it is probably not that germane, it is important to note that these people had not been in their land for over one thousand years.
Not true. Israel/Palestine has always been inhabited by Jews of some count since biblical times. Their claim to parts of that land is at least contemporaneous if not predating any other group.
Telstra Robs wrote:The Palestinians (of whom are most likely of some Israeli descent, or Philistinian, depending on the area) most likely see the Israelis as foreign Europeans (these feelings not helped by the Suez Crisis, a war between Egypt and a coalition force of Britain, France and Israel, where Britain and France got assistance from Israel in conquering the Sinai in 1956). The Palestinians are wrong in mistreating the Israelis who have returned to their land, but it is incorrect to assume that they have had eternal existence there. If that were the case, the Holocaust would not have taken place (as Hitler was killing the Jews in Europe; had they been in Israel, he would have not been able to reach them and if he did, it would have certainly been easier for the Allies to know, who didn't find out till the very end).
That is some warped logic there my friend. First, you assume there were no Jews in Israel/Palestine for a period of time, an assumption I would love for you to somehow back up; then as a so-called proof of said assumption you offer the fact that the Holocaust occurred in Germany instead of Israel? Are you serious? The Holocaust didn't happen in Germany because there were no Jews in Israel, it happened in Germany because that's where the seeds of hatred and antisemitism festered the most.
Telstra Robs wrote:The Six Day war in part had causes dating back to the Suez Crisis when British and French governments assisted Israel in conquering the Sinai peninsula from the Egyptians, as they feared their assets in the Suez Canal (the only canal that allows you to go from the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean, having to circumnavigate Africa otherwise) would be lost to the Egyptians. A British-French-Israeli force conquered the Sinai in 1956 in the said Suez Crisis.

In 1964, Israel began to divert water from Jordan, reducing crucial flow to the Hashemite Territory. In response, Arab states began to construct a dam (in their own territory) to restrict flow of the river that the Israelis were diverting to a dam in Jordan and Syria. The diversion works would have reduced Israeli water supply by 11%. In response, Israel used their military to attack the diversion works. The attacks by Israel sparked a chain of events leading to the Six Day War.
In 1964 Israel began to divert water because it is her birthright to use the water sources available in the region even if the water sources are not part of its own territories. Please read up on the U.N.'s charters on international water rights. The fact is that the Arab states beginning with Jordan were choking the life out of the Israelis by withholding such rights of water usage.
Telstra Robs wrote:
What?? How about jobs? Israel always had full intentions of allowing Palestinians to work in Israel. And many still do today. Before that there was absolutely nothing in Israel. No jobs or anything. Just a barren wasteland. They provided jobs for them...
No jobs? A barren wasteland? You cannot live in such a place. Emigration would have left it with an extremely low population when Israel conquered it. Such territories included East Jerusalem (not given to the Israelis by the UN), something with obvious value and worth before conquest and the Sinai peninsula, which includes the Suez Canal, a very, very rich and important asset.
Last I heard the Sinai peninsula was returned to its rightful owners once its existence was recognized and a peace deal was struck. Does that tell you something my friend? Look at the historical record. Every time Israel was approached with a sincere offer for peace a peace deal was struck and ceased territory was returned. In fact, Israel returned territory it had occupied even without a peace deal and that included water sources Israel desperately needed. Can you name this territory?

As far as jobs, are concerned, Palestinians who wish to live in Israel under Israeli law have all the rights and privileges Israeli citizens do including jobs, voting, joining the military, and representation in the Knesset. Show me a single Arab country that have the same rights for Jews in their country.
Telstra Robs wrote:
Paranoid? Again you are misinformed... What about the Gaza strip they gave up for the Oslo Accords? The minute Israel gave up those lands what did the Palestinians do? They used those lands to launch missiles into Israel. What would you do if you gave up your land to your neighbor and they used that land to launch missiles into your house? Would you be cautious?
The Gaza strip never ever belonged to Israel. It belonged to the Philistines, and then the Palestinians. As I mentioned before, they had little food and medical supplies, ships bringing them were blocked by an Israeli blockade over an alleged weapons smuggling. If you stole that same land from your neighbour and then prevented him from eating or bringing medication to his home after giving back what you stole while you watched him starve over something that you have no proof of, does that then give him the right to launch missiles into your land?
And Israel never claimed to have owned or even annexed the Gaza strip. It was occupied for security reasons, pure and simple. When the rockets stop flying from Gaza perhaps Israel will leave entirely and lift the blockade.
Telstra Robs wrote:
The Palestinians have no intentions of settling disputes with the Israelis. They want a Palestinian state without any Israel.. That is why they won't form it because then they would have to recognize the Israelis borders.

And speaking of evil.. What kind of a nut job would dress a baby as a suicide bomber?
The Palestinians as well as the rest of the world have proposed two solutions to the problem. The One State solution, which suggests that Israel and Palestine unify to be one big state where Palestinians and Israelis are equal has been rejected by the Israelis. The Two State solution suggests separate states for Israel and Palestine, but Israel refuses to give up the eastern half of Jerusalem in the West Bank and without this part of Jerusalem for a capital, the Palestinians have rejected this solution. We must leave to them to figure it out.
Make no mistake about it, Israel would love nothing more than to settle these disputes with its neighbors and live in peace. It has proven time and again its readiness to make concessions for the sake of peace, concessions that make sense. The right of return of Palestinian refugees from 1948 is a thorny issue but what most people fail to realize is that Israel is not opposed to the right of return into new Palestinian territories. But that's not what the Palestinians want. They want the right of return TO ISRAEL, where the refugees came from. That is simply not doable as it will tip the population scales WITHIN ISRAEL to a majority non-Jew, something no other ethnic country will accept. By example, it would be the same as permanently settling the Palestinian refugees in their host countries. Take Lebanon for example. There are over 500,000 Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, the majority of whom are Muslims. If they were to be assimilated into the country's population (of 4 million), a quarter of the country will immediately become of Palestinian origin. To say nothing of the fact that it will obliterate the delicate political balance between Christians and Muslims there.

As for other territories (parts of Gaza and the West Bank), Israel's stance is such that ok, they did build a lot of housing on these lands that may not be feasible to be given up but they are willing to trade other parts of land in return. But I don't see this as an obstacle to peace either; Israel will make the sacrifice of relocating the settlements given a real chance at peace.

As far as East Jerusalem, I really believe Israel will make the ultimate sacrifice and give up that piece of land for the sake of a lasting peace that includes all its neighbors recognizing Israel's right to exist. But they can't play that card unless and until they see a real chance for peace from the other side.
Telstra Robs wrote:The Palestinians are not all terrorists. Many are poor people who are trying to live their lives. They don't all have Israel and most certainly wouldn't strap bombs to their babies! That is an extremely morbid thought! No matter what your religion, no matter what your hatred or anger, it takes great zeal to want to sacrifice your own child. No sane person would do that. It is a disgusting thought.
And whoever said all the Palestinians are terrorists? But the fact remains they are the ones who voted Hamas and now they are being hijacked by their own leadership (namely Hamas, as Fatah is largely ineffectual as a partner in peace anyway) by the delusional promise of a Palestine free of Israel and free of Jews. Never gonna happen and the sooner they realize that the sooner we will have peace. But I wouldn't hold my breath though, their leadership is morally bankrupt.

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Telstra Robs wrote:Moving on to the next post.
Oh and just so you know, all those who attacked Israel hid behind women and children so Israel could not fight back. When Israel defended itself the liberal media attacked them, for self defense. Oh sure, why should they defend themselves, why not just let them all be killed. Oh wait, that is what Iran wants!!!!!! I have no pity, or sympathy for those who attack Israel.
The actions of a few who attacked Israel are heinous indeed. The actions and words of the Arab and Iranian governments, especially the hatred (which is on both sides) are things which I condemn. However, these are not the actions of all the Palestinians. Many people in this part of the world have evil thoughts towards Israel. However, many more don't. Instead of saying "that is what Iran wants", perhaps you should say "that is what the people who feel hatred for Israel and live in Iran want".
The fact remains it was the Palestinian people who voted in a leadership that is sworn to the destruction of Israel. So long as negotiation cannot be done directly with all the people and so long as they are being represented by an Israel-hating group there will never be peace.

Telstra Robs wrote:
No the Palestinians have always, and will always, hate Israel. In fact the people of the Gaza strip, before the boarders were closed (and they should be closed!) Said that they were with the terrorist organizations, who just happen to be the ones attacking mind you, and they all want the Jews dead and gone. You think that there is any justice in what the Palestinians do? That's laughable at best. Hamas, a terrorist organization, bombed Israel over and over again while hiding behind children. They hid in hospitals full of patients. They attacked over and over again. You think this was for some land that Israel took? No it is because Israel exists, they will not be happy until Israel is gone. They hide behind the lies that they just want their land back.
Mate, please prove that these are lies and that they want Israel gone. There have been in the past many Arab leaders (from countries other than Palestinian ones) who have expressed such thoughts, and there are still many terrorist organisations who do. However, there have been many peace proposals (on both sides AND from third parties) which show that both sides are attempting to end this useless conflict.

Here are some examples:

- Camp David Summit (2000): Israel cedes 95% of West Bank to new Palestine State. Israel retains indefinite control over 5% of the West Bank. Palestine rejects offer as Israeli checkpoints throughout Palestinian territory do not allow free movement and Israel and that the Barak's offer stated that Arafat forgo the "Right of Return" for Palestinian refugees who fled Israel in 1948.

- Taba Summit (2001): Barak proposes offer where there would be no indefinitely Israeli controlled areas. It was considered a good starting basis for further talks. Negotiation ended when Barak's left wing party was voted out and a more conservative party was voted in.

- Road Map for Peace (by EU, UN, US and Russia): Made a proposal, rejected by the Israeli government who made 14 amendments, which were considered unacceptable by the Palestinian authorities. The proposal called for a cease in Israeli settlement construction and a cease in hostilities.

- Arab Peace Initiative (proposed by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia): Proposed a return to United Nations pre1967 boarders and that a new Palestinian state would be created with East Jerusalem as its capitol. Rejected by Israel.
You really need to go back and re-read why these peace initiatives all failed. It was never on the part of Israel, who made many concessions. It probably was not on the part of the Arab states in general either but it certainly was always on the part of the Palestinian leadership starting with the most morally corrupt one of them all, Yaser Arafat, who torpedoed the Oslo accord the next day after agreeing to it. Why? Because on top of his moral bankruptcy he was a coward at heart.
As they say down my old way... GET IN THERE, BYBLOS!! :clap:
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