Great Tribulation

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
cslewislover
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Re: Great Tribulation

#61

Post by cslewislover » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:45 pm

This has been the funnest board I've read so far, I believe :pound: . What was the original topic? Oh, about persecution during the end times, or tribulation. Hmm. I don't think about it too much, as my church teaches that the rapture could happen at any time, before the tribulation. I am open to a mid-trib rapture, though. But, I don't know. Who can know for sure how they will act under torture? May God's strength and grace be with us if it happens. I read one story from an Asian country - can't remember which one now. Anyway, soldiers came into a church (I think a bible study was going on) and told everyone to line up and one by one, spit on the bible. Many people did, but finally this young woman wouldn't do it, and they shot her dead. There are all kinds of stories, past and present, about persecution; it's always going on. The founder of the Voice of the Martyrs had written some books, many that included imprisonment and torture of Christians. One man he knew went kind-of nuts after seeing his son killed in front of him; one can only hope and believe that God knows this man's heart and that he will be in heaven - not hell because he lost faith.
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Re: Great Tribulation

#62

Post by paparalph » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:46 pm

I know that no one has written on the thread for a while, but I have been worrying about the Great Tribulation a lot lately. It seems possible that the recent ecomomic events could lead to a currency free global economy. Therefore, if I must receive the mark to avoid watching my children starve, or renounce my savior to save my children from torture, I probably would. Who in their right mind wouldn't? After all, I don't even know if we will know each other in heaven to say, "See kids, what did I tell ya!" Their last thoughts would be of their father letting them die or suffer miserably.
I can't fathom letting my children of 2 and 5 years being tortured as their daddy looks on. How could I compromise my own childrens well being for my salvation, or my own rewards in heaven? :shakehead: I am not as great as God! I can't do it. The very thought of this scenario makes me ill. Lord forgive me if I have blasphemed you......
I

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Re: Great Tribulation

#63

Post by cslewislover » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:04 pm

paparalph wrote:I know that no one has written on the thread for a while, but I have been worrying about the Great Tribulation a lot lately. It seems possible that the recent ecomomic events could lead to a currency free global economy. Therefore, if I must receive the mark to avoid watching my children starve, or renounce my savior to save my children from torture, I probably would. Who in their right mind wouldn't? After all, I don't even know if we will know each other in heaven to say, "See kids, what did I tell ya!" Their last thoughts would be of their father letting them die or suffer miserably.
I can't fathom letting my children of 2 and 5 years being tortured as their daddy looks on. How could I compromise my own childrens well being for my salvation, or my own rewards in heaven? :shakehead: I am not as great as God! I can't do it. The very thought of this scenario makes me ill. Lord forgive me if I have blasphemed you......
I
Aaaargh. I wouldn't worry so much - we don't know for sure what's going to happen. The church I go to believes in the pretribulation rapture (or maybe midtribulation). But, even if you don't believe that, I think the Holy Spirit would give you strength to do what you need to do (but then if you believe in post-trib rapture, you may believe the Holy Spirit will be gone). I could say some more, but you may think it crass. I just wouldn't worry about it - God will take care of you - perhaps in ways you can't imagine.
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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Great Tribulation

#64

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:52 am

cslewislover wrote: I just wouldn't worry about it [the Tribulation] - God will take care of you - perhaps in ways you can't imagine.
A wise answer. Biblically wise.

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Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Great Tribulation

#65

Post by Zebulon » Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:40 am

paparalph wrote:I know that no one has written on the thread for a while, but I have been worrying about the Great Tribulation a lot lately.
So do I and many others around the world : Christians, Bhoudists, Muslims, Black skinned, Pink skinned like me ;o), doctors and farmers, homosexuals and pastors and so on...
paparalph wrote:It seems possible that the recent ecomomic events could lead to a currency free global economy. Therefore, if I must receive the mark to avoid watching my children starve, or renounce my savior to save my children from torture, I probably would.
Maybe you will not have to.
paparalph wrote:Who in their right mind wouldn't? After all, I don't even know if we will know each other in heaven to say, "See kids, what did I tell ya!" Their last thoughts would be of their father letting them die or suffer miserably.
I can't fathom letting my children of 2 and 5 years being tortured as their daddy looks on. How could I compromise my own childrens well being for my salvation, or my own rewards in heaven? :shakehead: I am not as great as God! I can't do it. The very thought of this scenario makes me ill. Lord forgive me if I have blasphemed you......
I feel the same way for my children, my wife, my sister, my neibors and so on. For the human race. It is scary. I think the best way is to look aroud us, now, at this time. I have the impression that maybe we are looking for details that we must get together to find out about. Maybe we have to put down the binoculars while what we are looking for is just beside us. I am part of a small group of people who are exchanging on what is going on in this world, mostly Christians, but some who are not, and some people of this group. Send me a private message if you would like to participate.

Zebulon

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Re: Great Tribulation

#66

Post by JCSx2 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:48 am

Matthew 10:33

33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Self explanatory, call it "unfair" if you want but you will be tested.

Jac3510 wrote:Of course we will. I already said:
Will we suffer persecution and the wrath of man? Of course. But the Day of the Lord--that is not something the Christian has to worry about going through.
Christians already suffer tribulation in these days. But again, that is not the so called "Great Tribulation"--the seven years characterized by things like the rule of the antichrist, the vial, trumpet, and bowl judgments, etc. That is something no member of the Church will have to endure.

But I do have a question for you from your original post. You said:
You wrote:I'll guess that if the answer is 'yes' they'll shoot you, and if it means my eternal salvation
Are you saying that you believe that if a believer denies Christ under the threat of death, then they go to Hell?
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: Great Tribulation

#67

Post by JCSx2 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:01 am

we wont know untill the time, Pray it is you.

jenna wrote:This subject of the great tribulation actually truly frightens me. Note that God says "Pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape". (Luke 21:36) How are we to know who God will actually decide who is "worthy" and who isn't?
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: Great Tribulation

#68

Post by paparalph » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:52 pm

Well if JCSx2 is correct, I better either
a. pray that I am worthy to escape (yeah right)
b. Get my suicide pills ready
c. Suffer along with my family

HMMM: What to choose? Its almost as if I am being asked to suffer for my salvation? Am I wrong?

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Re: Great Tribulation

#69

Post by Jac3510 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:25 pm

paparalph wrote:Well if JCSx2 is correct, I better either
a. pray that I am worthy to escape (yeah right)
b. Get my suicide pills ready
c. Suffer along with my family

HMMM: What to choose? Its almost as if I am being asked to suffer for my salvation? Am I wrong?
Don't worry, JCSx2 is wrong. ;)

As far as suffering for your salvation goes, that's a seperate issue from whether or not believers will go through the Tribulation. Be advised:

"In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted," 2 Tim 3:12, NIV

Uh oh.

I could multiply verse on verse, but I suppose that one clear statement is sufficient. If you want to live a godly life, then yes, you will suffer for it. But notice this, I didn't say if you were SAVED you would suffer. I said that if you want to live a godly life you will suffer. And there, my friend, is the rub. If you've believed the Gospel, you are saved as the day is long. You've crossed over from death into life, and you will NEVER perish (John 5:24). So yeah, as a Christian, you're heavenbound and all that. But do you want to live for Christ? Do you want to please Him and live for Him, to serve Him, honor Him, glorify Him, and reach others for Him? Do you want to hear, "Well done, My good and faithful servant"? In short, do you want Jesus Christ to be pleased with you?

If so, buckle up, 'cause the hurtin' 's'a comin'!

But look at it positively: "it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him" (Phil 1:29, NIV). Who would have thought that suffering for Christ is a blessing? But it is. There is great reward in suffering successfully, and nothing speaks louder to a lost world than a Christian who does so.

God bless
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And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Great Tribulation

#70

Post by JCSx2 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:18 pm

Hello,

I am confused on what I am wrong about

this:
JCSx2 wrote:Matthew 10:33

33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Self explanatory, call it "unfair" if you want but you will be tested.

Jac3510 wrote:Of course we will. I already said:
Will we suffer persecution and the wrath of man? Of course. But the Day of the Lord--that is not something the Christian has to worry about going through.
Christians already suffer tribulation in these days. But again, that is not the so called "Great Tribulation"--the seven years characterized by things like the rule of the antichrist, the vial, trumpet, and bowl judgments, etc. That is something no member of the Church will have to endure.

But I do have a question for you from your original post. You said:
You wrote:I'll guess that if the answer is 'yes' they'll shoot you, and if it means my eternal salvation
Are you saying that you believe that if a believer denies Christ under the threat of death, then they go to Hell?
If it is this then I don't think I am wrong. If you are in the tribulation and you deny Jesus before man or the followers of the antichrist then he will deny you before God in Heaven.

(Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.)

Many Christians will die martyrs. When you accept Christ as your savior; then you accept him as you savior through thick and thin, good and bad until death then you will be united in Heaven. Christians will be treated badly and tortured during the tribulation (possibly not all, but it will happen to some or many). Some may not but you can not count on it. The antichrist will be ruler of the physical world for a short period of time before Christ comes to bring peace. Christians will need to hold on to God to be saved, others who do not will not be saved.

Or this:
JCSx2 wrote:we wont know untill the time, Pray it is you.

jenna wrote:This subject of the great tribulation actually truly frightens me. Note that God says "Pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape". (Luke 21:36) How are we to know who God will actually decide who is "worthy" and who isn't?

Only God knows who will be worthy to escape the tribulation. If you have an inside scoop, then tell me about it.

I am a "Christian under construction" still learning, and not set in all views totally, if you can explain logically and biblically (from scripture) something to correct me then let me know. Some things I may be misguided on, proper biblical correction may change some views.

Peace and God bless

Jim

Edit: No one is being asked to suffer for their salvation, but is a byproduct from being a Christian though, depending on the particular situation. Some people suffer already; look at Christians in China, or a Muslim country.
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: Great Tribulation

#71

Post by paparalph » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:40 pm

Jac3510:
I don't doubt what you say, but in the parts of my life where I have mostly obeyed God, I have had blessings rather than pursecution, because I have found that sin = pain here on earth, as well as in heaven. God has some pretty good rules to live by. I better pray that this continues to be my experience!

JCSx2:
The Tom electrocution of Oprah cracks me up every time; however, if you are right about the trib, I would rather put my head under a pillow. It almost makes me want to stay away from church or think about God, because it reminds me of what my family has in store. I already have completely quit watching the world news.

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Re: Great Tribulation

#72

Post by JCSx2 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:23 pm

I just have speculation from interpretation from what is presented in the Bible. Most that interpret end Times prophecy have to admit that we will not know everything until it happens. The only being that can foretell the future is GOD. Any man who studies the return of Christ must remain restrained and not set dates or actual events per say. The rapture will happen and Christians will be delivered to heaven in a twinkling of an eye. Those of us who remain here on earth will have to deal with the tribulation. This will not be a good time, the Antichrist will be ruling and I do not think he will want to coddle Christians. We as Christians will have to remain strong and attempt to bring in as many of those as we can to the house of the Lord. "we can not convert people, only inform people so God can have the Holy spirit convert them." In any event this time will be very violent and many plagues, earthquakes, famine etc. will ravage the planet. It is in Revelations. God has already warned us what is to come. We will not know the exact time this will happen (Mat 24:36), but we will be able to recognize the season as it approaches (Mat 24:32).


Matthew 24:36
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Matthew 24:32
The Parable of the Fig Tree

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near





paparalph wrote:Jac3510:
I don't doubt what you say, but in the parts of my life where I have mostly obeyed God, I have had blessings rather than pursecution, because I have found that sin = pain here on earth, as well as in heaven. God has some pretty good rules to live by. I better pray that this continues to be my experience!

JCSx2:
The Tom electrocution of Oprah cracks me up every time; however, if you are right about the trib, I would rather put my head under a pillow. It almost makes me want to stay away from church or think about God, because it reminds me of what my family has in store. I already have completely quit watching the world news.
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: Great Tribulation

#73

Post by cslewislover » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:11 pm

Paparalph, I wanted to post this for you. I wrote this and it's on my blog (it's not the entire post, since I don't include the post-trib rapture position here - you can go to my blog if you want to read it), and it's short. I don't know why you believe you and your family will be here during the tribulation (or the 2nd half of it) - maybe you have a firm belief about it, maybe you don't. Anyway, maybe this will help you some.

The Rapture: Before, During, or at the End of The Tribulation?
A Short Overview

By cslewislover, April 2006 & September 2007

Jesus Christ told believers: “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you with me that you also may be where I am” (John 13:3, emphasis mine). “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert!” “What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!'” (Mark 13:32-33, 37). “Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man” (Luke 21:36).

The early church followed Jesus' words, watching, waiting, and praying. We are to do this still. If we are not allowed to know when the rapture and the tribulation (a seven year period preceding Christ's second advent) will happen, but are to wait for Jesus expectantly, why argue about these things? Yet there is a strong debate among many in the Church today over these coming events.

There are those who believe Jesus will call up His own at any time, without warning or sign; these are the Pre-tribulationists. “Pre” meaning “before,” so the Church will be raptured before the tribulation (or The Day of the Lord) comes. There are those who believe the Church will be raptured at the mid-point of the tribulation, so they are called Mid-tribulationists. Finally, there are those who believe the Church will go through the tribulation but somehow be protected by God, only to be raptured when Christ comes to defeat Antichrist.

Before I attempt to summarize the positions of these three rapture theologies, some basic controversies can be mentioned. First of all, arguments arise over the original meanings of some Greek words. Did the authors use them in a standard way, or in a nonstandard way in order to express something new? Also of no small consequence to the three positions is the question of the intended audience of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21). There is much scholarly controversy over this, since Matthew 24:16-20 specifically addresses those living in Judea. So, how much of the entire discourse is addressed to future Jews, and how much to all believers?

Pre-tribulation Rapture Position
1) Christians are promised exemption from divine wrath. Some of the verses cited are (any emphases are mine): “[you] wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath” (1 Thes 1:10); “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thes 5:9); and, “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev 3:10).

Pre-tribulationists believe that the whole 7-year period of the tribulation is a time of God's wrath (beginning with Christ opening the first of the seven seals on the scroll in heaven [Rev 6:1]), and as stated in the last verse above (Rev 3:10), it is a test for those who remain. It's a test that God knows most will fail, and so it will prove their unbelief. Many who come to believe in Christ after the tribulation starts will be killed by antichrist. This is the wrath of Satan (often referred to as The Wrath of Man), not of God.

2) There needs to be an interval between the rapture of the Church and Christ's second coming. Because there are both gentile and Jewish believers that go into the millennial kingdom after Christ's second coming (Isa 19:18-25, 60:1-3; Zech 14:16-21), all of Christ's followers cannot be raptured at the end of the tribulation. If that happened, there would be no one left on the earth!

3) There are differences between rapture passages and second coming passages. There are no rapture passages that mention either a “sign” of Christ's coming or a preliminary trial. Conversely, the two passages that clearly teach of Christ's coming at the end of the tribulation, to defeat Antichrist and set up the millennial kingdom, do not mention the rapture (Zech 14:1-3, Matt 24:4-31).


Mid-tribulation Rapture Position

Mid-tribulationists believe much the same as the Pre-tribulationists, the basic differences being (a) when the wrath of God starts and (b) an emphasis on the mid-week change during the tribulation as stated in some passages.

1) The first century church expected that the rapture could happen in their lifetimes. The rapture and the tribulation are separate events (see 1 Thes 4:14-18 and 5:1-9). The church will be delivered from the wrath of God; Rev 3:10 is the most obvious (quoted above), and 1 Thes 1:10, 5:9, Rom 5:9, and Rev 6:9-17, also imply this. In heaven believers are dressed in fine linen (Rev 19:8), and those coming with Jesus at the end of the tribulation are dressed in fine linen (Rev 19:11-15), so the church has to have already been raptured.

2) Certain signs will precede the rapture, as stated in Matthew 24:4-14; the tribulation in Matthew 24 is in verses 21-29 (vv 16-20 are addressed to those faithful living in Judea). Some of these signs are spoken of in 2 Thes 2:1-4, which also states that the “man of lawlessness” (the Beast) also has to be revealed.

3) There is a distinction between the first and second 3.5 years of the tribulation in scripture. In Daniel's vision (Dan 7-8), he was told: “He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time” (that is, 3.5 years) (Dan 7:25); a similar passage is in Dan 12:7. Other verses that mention the break are Dan 9:27b and 12:11, and Rev 12:6 and 14, which tell of God's protection of Israel during the second half of the tribulation.
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Re: Great Tribulation

#74

Post by paparalph » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:14 pm

Thanks cslewislover. I think that good arguements exist on all sides of the tribulation matter. Due to recent world wide events, I have been reminded that the end is inevitable (if not now then eventually). I guess that given my recent concerns over global events, I wanted to try to prepare myself for what ever is going to happen. I'm not sure if preperation is possible pending certain scenarios, but my wife and two children deserve some guidance from a guy who is trying to be a spiritual leader. Again, thanks for the post. Yet more good evidence for one of the three positions.

My uneducated hypothesis:
1. Iran, China and Russia make a run for Isreal to unite OPEC, and knock down the USA's power hold on the region and energy.

2. The temple is rebuilt, the antichrist rules in the temple (abomination causing desolation) and enforces a skin trade. New Jewish believers convert given the Biblical evidence, and go through a regional tribulation.

3. The USA (the Great Whore) gears to react, but is nuked by China and Russia.
All: feel free to critique. No need to be gentle-I'm not so opinionated to feel much pride in my uneducated guess. Besides, what good does it really do to make predictions?

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Re: Great Tribulation

#75

Post by Zebulon » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:51 am

First of all a happy, tender, loving, healthy 2009 for all of the group.
paparalph wrote:
My uneducated hypothesis:
1. Iran, China and Russia make a run for Isreal to unite OPEC, and knock down the USA's power hold on the region and energy.

2. The temple is rebuilt, the antichrist rules in the temple (abomination causing desolation) and enforces a skin trade. New Jewish believers convert given the Biblical evidence, and go through a regional tribulation.

3. The USA (the Great Whore) gears to react, but is nuked by China and Russia.
All: feel free to critique. No need to be gentle-I'm not so opinionated to feel much pride in my uneducated guess. Besides, what good does it really do to make predictions?
Very interresting the way you bring your hypothesis, paparalph. Many believe that the communism is out of this world... while it is probably very well hidden by a false capitalism direction taken from China lately and firstly by Russia in 1990-91 (ex USSR and done by Michael Gorbatchev, who, by the way is coming back to politics in Russia, and, being of another story, he shows a birthmark on his head, or is it? like wounded).
On some other hypothesis, the actual Roman Catholic pope would be the last one before the antiChrist comes. Since 1929, the Popes are Kings as well, since they rule the Religious aspect and the kingdom aspect of the Vatican who became a country that same year.

Interresting readings on this hypothesis can be found here : http://biblelight.net/satan.htm

Zebulon

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