On keeping the Sabbath

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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#16

Post by Deborah » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:10 pm

Ok this is going to sound silly.
But I would like to know how the Sabbath changed from the Saturday of the Jews to the Sunday for most Christians. I have been unable to find the answer so far still looking but would appreciate any help given.

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#17

Post by Anonymous » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:01 pm

Great question!

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come... Colossians 2:16-17


Rather than the Sabbath being changed, the Christians began worshiping on Sunday, the Lord's day(kyriake hanera), because Christ arose on Sunday. Christ also is said to have appeared to His disciples on the first day of the week ( John 20:19, 26; Revelation 1:10)
Acts 20:7 -"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow."

1 Cor. 16:1, 2 "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Read more here:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/FrancisTur ... rdsDay.htm

and here (or take your pick):

http://www.bible.ca/7-mark-beast.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd25.htm

http://www.raycomfort.com/articles/sabbath/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/sabbath.htm


\0/Praising God for his mercy and grace\0/,
Mandi

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#18

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:47 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:However, they seem to miss that the Sabbath was established way back at creation...when there were no Jews anywhere on the face of the earth...plus Christ himself said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." From my apparently limited education...Man is not spelled J-E-W. (*just some sarcasm*) :)
Firstly BW, just so you don't feel like I'm attacking... I think if one feels as strongly as you do about keeping the Sabbath, to the extent that breaking it would strongly weigh against their conscience and impact upon their relationship with God, that they should keep it. Therefore I'd commend you on keeping it, as it is really all for God in the end.

Now, onto the theology side of things, should "all" keep the Sabbath? For me, I see no clear reason why I should for it seems of the same order to me as being circumcised or keeping kosher. You state it was established way back at creation, but this is not entirely correct. The standard God set up for humanity to follow, of work than rest, was obviously always there for all to see. On the other hand, the example wasn't legally binding until the Mosaic laws were setup for Israel.

Now let me agree for a moment that the Sabbath was indeed instituted to be kept (rather than serving just as an example) from the very beginning, in the form that it was given to Israel. Now the punishment also given to Israel for someone who defiles or breaks the Sabbath is death (Exodus 31:14). So just as you believe one should be legally bound to keep the Sabbath, should we not also continue to carry out the punishments God also set for those who break the Sabbath?

Kurieuo.
Hand out death, then, to all that murder as Christ enhanced and/or made more clear the commandment of murder. Anger and/or hate are the same thing. None can keep the law as a means for salvation...hence why Christ came to redeem us from the curse of the law and not from the law itself. (Galatians 3:13) The law is not abolished, but fulfilled. The contrasting use of these words is self-evident.

The Israelites misinterpreted the point of the law...pointing to unrighteousness and sin. They thought making more rules in keeping the law was to be able to keep the law. (Matthew 5:20) The Pharisee's thought they were blameless...however, Christ took the law to a "different" level than that was understood by the Pharisees.

The law was never put into place for salvation, but to bring sin out. Make sin known. The law curses the sinner because one law broken is breaking all! The sinner, from conception, is cursed by the law! But by the new creation, living by the spirit, the law is spiritual, we are declared righteous through Christ's righteousness. Not our own.

The Sabbath is part of God's law...it is not "Moses' law"...and the ONLY ONE CONTESTED of the 10 commandments. Why?

Exodus 20 tells us how to keep the Sabbath...it was put in written form at Sinai, but to "remember" is to have known about it prior...and even if the method of keeping the Sabbath wasn't known until Sinai, it is now. God wrote the 10 with his own finger. The 10 were put inside the ark of the covenant...the book of the law was placed outside, next to the ark...this shows where the 10 stand in the scheme of things.
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#19

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:48 pm

Mastermind wrote:Nowhere do I see that we have to do anything special on the seventh day. God consecrated it. That's it. Nothing about not working or going to church on that day. I've looked through the next 3 chapters of Genesis and still nothing about any such thing. Unless I missed something(which I doubt), the keeping of the Sabbath was part of the Mosaic Law.
See the 4th commandment...or the 3rd...depending on whether you are using a Catholic Bible or not... :)
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#20

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:08 pm

Mandi wrote:Great question!

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come... Colossians 2:16-17
Excellent text quote, Mandi...now...this text no more abolishes the keeping of the Sabbath than it does eating and drinking. You still eat and drink...don't you?
Mandi wrote:Rather than the Sabbath being changed, the Christians began worshiping on Sunday, the Lord's day(kyriake hanera), because Christ arose on Sunday. Christ also is said to have appeared to His disciples on the first day of the week ( John 20:19, 26; Revelation 1:10)
Acts 20:7 -"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow."
Another excellent quote. Lots of speculation here and no scriptural support for such a change.

Mandi's words are quite telling here. She says, "the Christians began...because Christ arose...Christ appeared on the first..." yet no actual scripture quote that says something to the effect..."The new Sabbath is *this* day...do not keep the Sabbath of God's law!"

However...Christ appeared to his disciples throughout 40 days after his resurrection...do you try and figure out which days those are and keep them also?

What day and hour exactly was this "meeting" taking place? Do you, Mandi, understand the method of day reckoning?

Where exactly did Christ spell this out to us...or even the disciples after this...it seems this would've been quite an important new point to make known...don't you? Yet we hear crickets for a change of Sabbath to Sunday from scripture...we are Protestants here correct? Scripture alone?
Mandi wrote:1 Cor. 16:1, 2 "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."
Yet another excellent scripture. Personal accounting is to be done on the first day! And the collection didn't even happen the same day! "When I come" is pretty vague...he was always traveling.
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#21

Post by Anonymous » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:06 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: Excellent text quote, Mandi...now...this text no more abolishes the keeping of the Sabbath than it does eating and drinking. You still eat and drink...don't you?
Yes, but you can't judge me for what I eat and drink.
BavarianWheels wrote:Mandi's words are quite telling here. She says, "the Christians began...because Christ arose...Christ appeared on the first..." yet no actual scripture quote that says something to the effect..."The new Sabbath is *this* day...do not keep the Sabbath of God's law!"
You didn't read the articles for which I gave links, did you? Jesus is my rest, and I worship God every day.

BavarianWheels wrote:What day and hour exactly was this "meeting" taking place? Do you, Mandi, understand the method of day reckoning?
Do you understand that the sabbath pointed to my eternal rest in Jesus Christ?
Scripture alone?
Not just scripture --- I'd say some help from God with understanding what we read.

How To Understand The Bible
1. Read - Eph. 3:4
2. Study - 2 Tim. 2:15
3. Exercise senses - Heb. 5:14
4. Search - Acts 17:11
5. Receive with meekness - James 1:21
6. Look into it - James 1:25
7. Desire it - 2 Pet. 2:2
8. Grow in knowledge - 2 Pet. 3:18
9. Strive to understand - Eph. 5:17
10. Let it unfold - Psalm 119:130
11. Meditate on it day and night - Psalm 1:2
12. Hear it read - Rev. 1:3
13. Have it preached - 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 1 Pet. 4:11
14. Test what is said - 1 John 4:2; Matt. 7:15-16
15. Prove all things - 1 Thess. 5:21
16. Defend it - Jude 3; 1 Pet. 3:15
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/davidriggs01/howto.htm

What God desires is a heart that loves Him! Jesus is my Sabbath Rest. God, Who judges our hearts, is pleased when we give all honor and glory to Him! The Spirit does what the law can not do!

Romans 2
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 5
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Is my heart right with God?

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Come unto me,

all ye that labour

and are heavy laden,

and I will give you rest.


Matthew 11:28

Here are several pages to read about The Faith-Rest Life:

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1561

\0/Praising God for his mercy and grace\0/,
Mandi
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#22

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:18 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:Hand out death, then, to all that murder as Christ enhanced and/or made more clear the commandment of murder.
Well, I do think capital punishment is an equal penalty for someone who takes another's life, so I have no qualms with this. My main concern would be whether or not the legal system can prosecute murderers without wrongly prosecuting innocents.

Yet, the difference between the penalty for the Sabbath and murder, is that the Sabbath was "first" instituted as a legal requirement with the Mosaic law. Therefore, it seems inconsistent to say with one breath that the Sabbath law always existed in the form it did as given to Israel, yet in another breath to discrimate against the penalty which was given along side of it. What reason is there to assume the Sabbath should be divorced of its penalty, that is, what reason is there to assume the penalty associated with the Sabbath isn't also apart of the Law to be kept? I can provide a reason why the penalty for murdering someone can differ, as Cain murdered his brother and God did not kill him. Therefore the punishment of murder is not actually apart of God's law for all.
BW wrote:The Sabbath is part of God's law...it is not "Moses' law"...and the ONLY ONE CONTESTED of the 10 commandments. Why?
It is the only one that can't be reconfirmed in any form as apart of the new convenent. Provide me with a verse in the NT affirming the Sabbath after Christ's resurrection, and I will stop contesting it.

Now what I see as still important to this commandment given to Israel, is the message behind the institution of the Sabbath, which is to honour God above all creation, and respect all He has created and blessed. The Sabbath is a symbol of God's completion of creation, and that everything comes under God, and we should not forget this. However, Israel's literal observance the seventh day, which God blessed as a token of His completed creation, served an important function of distinguishing Israel further from the nations around them, and setting them apart as God's chosen people (as with many other laws given to Israel).

You might protest that these laws were intended for everyone? I think God gives us a clue who these commandments were really intended for in verse 17 which reads, "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." (Exodus 20:17) The fact that within the commandments it explicitly mentions not to covet things that appear applicable to Israel and not everyone (e.g., ox and donkey), indicates that the ten commandments were only given to Israel. Yet, many of the reasons and ideas behind to ten commandments are still applicable to all today, and they do capture God's desire for all of us to love Him and each other. For example, the idea of not to covet something that belongs to someone else is applicable to all, because God wants us all to love and have pure motives towards each other.

Kurieuo.
Last edited by Kurieuo on Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#23

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:21 pm

Mandi wrote:Do you understand that the sabbath pointed to my eternal rest in Jesus Christ?
Very good point Mandi. This is something I never reflected upon, so thanks.

Kurieuo.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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#24

Post by Anonymous » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:56 pm

Kurieuo wrote: Very good point Mandi. This is something I never reflected upon, so thanks.
Kurieuo.
God bless!

Here is something to think about, too:

2 Corinthians 3

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
BavarianWheels wrote:The 10 were put inside the ark of the covenant...the book of the law was placed outside, next to the ark...this shows where the 10 stand in the scheme of things.
BavarianWheels, two complete copies of the 10 Commandments were also placed beside the ark in the ceremonial law.

Was the ceremonial law abolished according to Ephesians 2:15? The ceremonial law contained 2 copies of the 10 Commandments. Now read Romans 7 and 2 Corinthians 3.

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#25

Post by RGeeB » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:48 am

One way to see Sunday is the celebration of Jesus' resurrection. Its the celebration of the start of God's new creation. Only this time He's creating a new man first and a new Heaven and Earth last.
Maranatha!

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#26

Post by Mastermind » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:48 am

Kurieuo wrote: Well, I do think capital punishment is an equal penalty for someone who takes another's life, so I have no qualms with this. My main concern would be whether or not the legal system can prosecute murderers without wrongly prosecuting innocents.
Kurieuo.
You don't believe in redemption K?

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#27

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:59 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:Hand out death, then, to all that murder as Christ enhanced and/or made more clear the commandment of murder.
Well, I do think capital punishment is an equal penalty for someone who takes another's life, so I have no qualms with this. My main concern would be whether or not the legal system can prosecute murderers without wrongly prosecuting innocents.

Yet, the difference between the penalty for the Sabbath and murder, is that the Sabbath was "first" instituted as a legal requirement with the Mosaic law.
Not so. The Sabbath was instituted at creation. One need only read the commandment of the Sabbath to see this. The day was made holy at creation. There was no Jew at creation.
Kurieuo wrote:Therefore, it seems inconsistent to say with one breath that the Sabbath law always existed in the form it did as given to Israel, yet in another breath to discrimate against the penalty which was given along side of it. What reason is there to assume the Sabbath should be divorced of its penalty, that is, what reason is there to assume the penalty associated with the Sabbath isn't also apart of the Law to be kept? I can provide a reason why the penalty for murdering someone can differ, as Cain murdered his brother and God did not kill him. Therefore the punishment of murder is not actually apart of God's law for all.
It seems inconsistent, but do not all men die? Is not death the sting of sin? Cain was punished...he was banished and he died. No mention of whether he came around to God or not...that would be speculation at best.
Kurieuo wrote:
BW wrote:The Sabbath is part of God's law...it is not "Moses' law"...and the ONLY ONE CONTESTED of the 10 commandments. Why?
It is the only one that can't be reconfirmed in any form as apart of the new convenent. Provide me with a verse in the NT affirming the Sabbath after Christ's resurrection, and I will stop contesting it.
Sure. Take a look at what Paul says about this "new" faith...
Romans 3:30-31 NIV wrote:since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Further...what does James tell us?
James 2:26 NIV wrote: As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Now lets take a look at how God knew of Abraham's faith.
Genesis 22:12 NIV wrote:"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
And further we have this:
14:15 NIV wrote:If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Christ's words. Does not Christ claim he is the I AM? Unless Christ lies, then he is the same One that wrote the 10 with His own finger. Does God give faulty laws? Or is it we that are faulty?

Certainly no one keeps the law perfectly! This is clear. No one can claim self-righteousness. But as new creatures, as new creations, who now live according to the spirit and not according to the sinful nature...we yearn for what the pirit yearns for. We live according to the spirit.

Paul says:
Romans 7:14-25 NIV wrote:We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
We see that Paul makes a clear distinction between the law of God and the law of sin. The law of God, he's a slave to. He delights on God's law. But it is the law of sin...(what the law says to a sinner) that is what we are under in the sinful nature. Christ came and redeemed us from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13) and not from the law itself. The law is holy, righteous, and good. (Romans 7:12) The law is not to blame for sin, it points sin out. The written law did not exist in Eden (at least we're not told it did) and yet Adam sinned. How so? If sin is transgression of the law...and the law points to sin...what dd Adam and Eve do wrong? More so again, what did Cain do wrong that deserved banishment?

It is what the law says to or about the sinner that is against us. It is not the law itself that is against us. The law, if anyone could be righteous apart from Christ, would be life to that being...as the law would testify of his/her righteousness. In that case the law would be good...better, in both cases the law is holy righeous and good.

If the law was nailed to the cross...then every single person from Adam to the last is saved as the law cannot condemn anyone being "abolished".

One must take these "theologies" to their logical conclusion. God is logical, and not arbitrary.
Kurieuo wrote:Now what I see as still important to this commandment given to Israel,
It was not given to Israel, but to man. Christ attests to this.
Mark 2:27 NIV wrote:Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
I don't read J-E-W anywhere there. Is Christ mistaken?
Kurieuo wrote:is the message behind the institution of the Sabbath, which is to honour God above all creation, and respect all He has created and blessed. The Sabbath is a symbol of God's completion of creation, and that everything comes under God, and we should not forget this. However, Israel's literal observance the seventh day, which God blessed as a token of His completed creation, served an important function of distinguishing Israel further from the nations around them, and setting them apart as God's chosen people (as with many other laws given to Israel).
Can it not still serve that purpose? Is not the Sabbath a sign? (Ezekiel 20:12,13)

Does not Christ himself warn the Apostles (and us) that we should pray that our flight would not take place on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:20) about the last days...the days just prior to His return? Why? Did not Christ know the Sabbath was to be "abolished"? Why would it then matter?
Kurieuo wrote:You might protest that these laws were intended for everyone? I think God gives us a clue who these commandments were really intended for in verse 17 which reads, "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." (Exodus 20:17) The fact that within the commandments it explicitly mentions not to covet things that appear applicable to Israel and not everyone (e.g., ox and donkey), indicates that the ten commandments were only given to Israel. Yet, many of the reasons and ideas behind to ten commandments are still applicable to all today, and they do capture God's desire for all of us to love Him and each other. For example, the idea of not to covet something that belongs to someone else is applicable to all, because God wants us all to love and have pure motives towards each other.
Are you proposing that only Israelites had possesions like manservants and maidservants, ox and donkey...? Clearly the last few words summarize it for us..."or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Is it only Israelites that have neighbors? Is that the next supposition?

Who is our neighbor?
Luke 10:29-37 NIV wrote:But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. `Look after him,' he said, `and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

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#28

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:11 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Mandi wrote:Do you understand that the sabbath pointed to my eternal rest in Jesus Christ?
Very good point Mandi. This is something I never reflected upon, so thanks.
That's not what scripture says. Let's read the 4th commandment together.
Exodus 20:8-11 NIV wrote:"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Rest *IS* found in Christ, but the Sabbath is not the memorial to the rest in Christ. It is a memorial to creation...it affirms Christ as Creator.

Hebrews 3 and 4 speak of the rest...and how the COI lost it because they didn't combine it with faith...combine what?
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#29

Post by Jac3510 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:53 pm

BW, I stand 100%.. read 100% by my statement. Just because the Law has been fulfilled and no longer binding does not mean sin is no longer sin.

Prove to me, without using the Law, that it is a sin not to keep the Sabbath in the Mosaic sense of the word.

I have a feeling I'm going to have to write out a dissertation on this issue :p
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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#30

Post by Mastermind » Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:04 pm

BW, all you have given us is ceremonial law. All God says is that the seventh day is holy. Anything else is ceremonial. In other words, I don't have to do anything special on the seventh day unless I want to. And that quote about the Sabbath being made for man is rather ironic, as it was Jesus's reply when He was asked why the apostoles were working on the Sabbath(which according to you would be a sin).

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