The Olivet Discourse Fulfilled

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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#46

Post by puritan lad » Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:26 pm

Mystical wrote:Really confusing. Almost too confusing.
Mystical,

When I get a chance next week, I'll post some examples of "Apocalyptic Language" that will hopefully clear things up a bit. I've been rather busy this week.
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#47

Post by puritan lad » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:33 am

Mystical,

Here is a list of some Apocalyptic Language in the Bible. Hopefully, this will clear up some of the confusion surrounding the Olivet Discourse.

God Bless,

PL
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Fortigurn and Puritan Lad

#48

Post by aa118816 » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:39 pm

I just want to thank you guys for always having a spirited and factually supported debate. I am referring to the many threads that you have posted with concern to this topic. I think it is pretty stupid when people attack each other for disagreement when they are both clearly followers of Christ. Christ explicitly told us to turn our cheek to our brother. He was referring to people inside the Church. I am not saying you guys are fighting, I am referring to the other folks that are sniping at you.

For full disclosure, I am closer to Fortigurn, though PL has really made me appreciate the destruction of Jerusalem and the judgement on the false Pharasitical religion of Judaism. It is very clear to me that the true Jews will come back to their Messiah in the End Times. The debate has been well waged and I look forward to reading more in the future.

Dan

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#49

Post by IRQ Conflict » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:10 am

Here is a link to a futurist site (which I am partial to) and a quote.
5. Preterism and the Promise of a Soon Coming.

Preterists like to point out that Jesus and the disciples stated that the kingdom was near and at hand. What they often ignore is that this same formula was used in the Old Testament in instances where the eventual fulfillment was a long way off.

An example of this is seen in Isaiah 13:6 where, speaking of a coming judgment against the city of Babylon, the prophet says, "Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty." Isaiah writes these words in the 8th century B.C. but it is not until 539 B.C. that Babylon fell to the Persians.

The preterist attempts to make a similar case via the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:34 where Jesus says, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." What is conveniently ignored is the earlier context of Jesus' words in the previous chapter.

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation." (Matthew 23:34-36).

Notice that it was "this generation" that murdered Zechariah, the son of Berechiah." The problem is that this murder took place 400 years earlier as recorded in 2 Chronicles 24:20-21. This tells us that Matthew's use of the term "generation" means something different than a mere life span of the people who were living at that time.
Here is another good site.
Not only is preterism untenable, but it is unwise as well. Preterism undermines the encompassing nature of Scriptural prophecy, spiritualizes/allegorizes Scriptural passages, robs the saint of the hope of Jesus' imminent appearing, and produces a "lazy virgin" syndrome.
God Bless.

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#50

Post by puritan lad » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:13 am

An example of this is seen in Isaiah 13:6 where, speaking of a coming judgment against the city of Babylon, the prophet says, "Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty." Isaiah writes these words in the 8th century B.C. but it is not until 539 B.C. that Babylon fell to the Persians.
True. Less than 200 years later. Notice that Isaiah does not say "this generation, nor does he give any specific time reference.
The preterist attempts to make a similar case via the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:34 where Jesus says, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." What is conveniently ignored is the earlier context of Jesus' words in the previous chapter.

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation." (Matthew 23:34-36).

Notice that it was "this generation" that murdered Zechariah, the son of Berechiah." The problem is that this murder took place 400 years earlier as recorded in 2 Chronicles 24:20-21. This tells us that Matthew's use of the term "generation" means something different than a mere life span of the people who were living at that time.
Jesus does not say that "this generation" murdered Zechariah. He said specifically "you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?". Then he states that "all these things will come upon this generation". In other words, they would pay for centuries of persecution against God's people, from Abel to now, and that all of the measure of guilt would be pour out upon them. In this text, "this generation" means the same thing as it does everywhere else.
Not only is preterism untenable, but it is unwise as well. Preterism undermines the encompassing nature of Scriptural prophecy, spiritualizes/allegorizes Scriptural passages, robs the saint of the hope of Jesus' imminent appearing, and produces a "lazy virgin" syndrome.
Totally disagree. I hold that Premillennial Dispensationalism causes the church to expect defeat instead of victory in this age, robs saints of their promised inheritance with a one-sided "other-worldliness", and produces a "chicken little" syndrome.
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#51

Post by Sean 2 » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:58 am

IRQ Conflict wrote:
Not only is preterism untenable, but it is unwise as well. Preterism undermines the encompassing nature of Scriptural prophecy, spiritualizes/allegorizes Scriptural passages, robs the saint of the hope of Jesus' imminent appearing, and produces a "lazy virgin" syndrome.
God Bless.
Wow, that's strange. If anyone believes this all they have to do is read the New Testament and see that most, and I mean most of the Apostles quotes of the old testament are spiritualized. If spiritualizing is wrong then we are in trouble because the Apostles would be wrong as well.

Hello Puritan Lad! Finally something we can agree on! :)

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#52

Post by IRQ Conflict » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:01 pm

Yeah, I never heard of preterism before joining this forum, and it didn't sit right with me so I googled some stuff that reportedly refuted it, I just assumed the info was at least mostly correct without actually researching it.

Sorry for that, I'm so darn busy! And this is a topic of interest for me, but I have to educate myself a little more before I'm ready to argure for / against this. Hopefully I'll have time to do so in the near future.

God Bless!
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1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

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#53

Post by SUGAAAAA » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:30 pm

I, too, only heard of preterism when i joined this forum and I was a little bothered at first, but now i feel a sort of relief (assuming preterism is true) since I dont have to fear a persecution, tribulation, or Antichrist or anything discussed in the book of Revelation (and the Olivet discourse).


minus the second coming, of course.


also, it shows that Bible prophecy was indeed fulfilled, which should assure people that the Bible can be trusted.
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#54

Post by Jay_7 » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:39 pm

is preterism true? what is it?

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#55

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:28 am

preterism means past basically. preterists beleive that some world events recorded in Scripture that most christians beliveis yet to be fullfiled, in particular the rise of anti-Christ.Preterism say's it's already been fullfilled by Nero in AD 70.

I however am still unconvinced. I still have to study this yet to draw concrete belief in one view or the other.
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1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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#56

Post by Sean 2 » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:47 am

Would anyone wanting to learn more about preterism (not to be confused with full preterism) want a link to downloadable MP3 teachings on the subject that actually teach futurism and preterism by a man who used to be a futurist and on further study changed his mind to preterism?

The reason I point this out is that there is so much involved, it takes way too much time to type to cover all the relevent points and is much easier to have explained.

The preterist view sees many prophecies predicted to occur as being fulfilled shortly after they were predicted, with a belief that the second coming of Chirst is still future.

This view says that passages like Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 as well as many (but not all) things mentioned in Revelation as having already occured in the past, signaling of the end the Old Covenant and judgement of the nation that crucified Christ.

This means no 7 year tribulation (were is a 7 year tribulation mentioned in the Bible anyway?), no "signs" before the second coming, etc.

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#57

Post by Sean 2 » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:05 am

Jbuza wrote: Ummm. I think the Bible clearly says that if anyone comes to you saying here Jesus has returned, or there Jesus has returned isn't Biblical. The Bible says his return will be like the lightening that shineth from sky to sky. The Bible also specifically tells of warning signs that will show when the end is nearing.
About there being signs:

Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

The "signs" are signs of the beginning, not the end. The end is when Jesus actually returns which is put like this:

Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Mat 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
"Day", "hour" refer to time. You don't know when it will be because it will be unexpected.

Mat 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus said "they" won't know and "you" won't know.

Jesus also said:
Luk 21:8 And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.

When people say, look at the signs, it's clear the time is near/at hand! Jesus said don't believe them. Because there will be no signs.

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#58

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:11 am

When people say, look at the signs, it's clear the time is near/at hand! Jesus said don't believe them. Because there will be no signs.


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Luk 12:54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
Luk 12:55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
Luk 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Luk 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Luk 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
Luk 12:59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

There will be signs, you just quoted some of them. All these things have to be before his second coming. I know this, as the parable of the fig tree as well.

My concern regarding preterism is the Nero / Anti-Christ thing. I'm still studying the history of that time in rome 60-70 AD to get a better understanding of the persecution of the christians and what not.

What I see being a fundamental flaw with preterism (thus far) is the allegorical view of the Word that must be present in order to explain some of their claims.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

It's my belief that after the Word has been preached in every nation tribe and tongue then the end shall come. Touching off the 'tribulation period which after the anti-christ promises peace in the middle east (Israel in particular) after 3 and one half years he will break the peace treaty and there will be 3 and one half years of persecution.


And yes, friend, I would love to dl that mp3! thanks for that!

God bless!

P.S. I've been batting around the idea that perhaps evolution is that 'great deception' the Bible refers to in reference to the 'falling away'. What say you?
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1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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#59

Post by puritan lad » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:03 am

Sean. I'm interested in the MP3. Always looking for more info.

God Bless,

PL.

PS. You are a rarity, an Arminian Preterist. I haven't met too many of those. :wink:
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#60

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:37 am

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Without doubt the anti-Christ will be revealed after a great falling away.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

he will be a church person and sitting in the temple of God claiming no less than being God.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

What stops this anti-Christ from comming to power right now? The Church. I beleive the dicerners of iniquity (Spirit filled Christians). Once the 'restrainer' is taken away via the 'rapture' it will be a no-holds barred sin fest. The 'blind leading the blind'.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Even in the apostles time the first foundations of the apostolic seat were laid, but yet so that they deceived men.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

We see here that the 'man of sin' this 'anti-Christ' will be consumed by the Lord with the Spirit of his mouth. For this to be Nero is impossible, as Nero commited suicide. And Nero caused no one afaik to recieve any mark of any kind or prohibit the buying and selling of goods. Nor did he force anyone to worship him as God. There are also other things that are atribbuted to the man of sin that don't jive with the nero theory, such as the fatal wound that was healed...

Source
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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